Another way to look at it...

[RobbieG]

I had a nice talk on the phone yesterday with Lani and one of the topics though brief was movements. We were talking about how there is a lot of focus on dealers and that the factories really control the game and obviously all dealers just have to sell what is produced. I guess to me (and I'm not saying Lani agrees with this necessarily BTW) I never really allowed myself to focus on the whole, "Who is telling the truth and who is lying issues" because I know that it doesn't matter anyway. If I find out that some watch is being sold with an Asian ETA copy in its best version, what do I gain by knowing anything really about the movement and its origins? In other words, we all know that for any version of a watch we are interested in that it comes from one factory and has either one or two different movement options - the cheaper one and the better one. So whether it is ETA or not, if you want that watch you don't have a choice. You just have to buy the one with the better movement if that is important to you or the lesser one if it isn't.

So to that end I can't for the life of me figure out what can be gained by having each and every movement story clocked. The factories obviously aren't ready to admit they counterfeit ETA's publicly and they probably never will - and it is getting tougher and tougher to tell what is gen and what is fake anyway. But again, even if you knew every truth about every movement in every watch, what would you do with the information? If you tried to hold the line on having only genuine ETA's in your lineup going forward you are I'm afraid in for a pretty boring rep experience as you will have to pass on pretty much every watch not knowing for sure what is in it. It is also probably another thread but along the same lines, we should always keep in mind that even the known genuine ETA's were never really preserving much of what makes Swiss movements superior anyway. They have traditionally been bulk stock and not from sealed packs, etc. obviously so how much of what makes Swiss, Swiss did they ever really have to begin with?

That said, in the future there is really only going to be one way to gen ETA movements and that is to just buy them and drop them in. That way what you will have in your reps is something that truly is Swiss and actually is superior to anything that might come out of China whatever it is. Otherwise, you just have to accept that you get what they give you. Of course many watches don't even come with a choice anymore which I find peculiar as well. It used to be that more watches had the Asian / Swiss option. Now they are all Swiss for some pieces. Meanwhile, there is supposedly a shortage. Hmmmmm.

Anyway, Otto has 2824's for around $160 and 2836's for $140. Maybe like AR and lume, true Swiss upgrades will become a standard mod in the near future. I know for me, I have always wanted to make sure I had a real ETA in my reps when I had them incase I wanted to keep the watch forever I would know what was in it could last a lifetime. But once I realized that there was treachery afoot I knew that if I wanted to be sure I would have to upgrade it myself.

So my suggestion to those who are tortured by this issue is to forget about trying to figure it out - or who is lying or whatever. Just know that the watch you want probably comes only one way from one factory (UPO, Steelfish, best quality DJ's, etc.) and you have to take what is in it if you want that best version of the watch. And that is true no matter what dealer you get it from. From there, if you really fall in love and want to start modding it and keeping it forever, consider putting another buck and half into it to make it truly Swiss - or just mentally set the money aside (which is really low dollars) for the future that if it dies you will pop one in.

I'll look forward to the responses, but PLEASE, no talk about truth telling anymore. I think that has been more than covered. The whole point of the thread is that info gets us nowhere other than standing on a horse and "being right". You still have to take what is given to you by the factory if you want the watch so what difference does it make? The market is always right. If I know something about one of my trades and still lose money did it matter that I was smart and figured something out? The only issue is how I am going to react to what is happening - not repeating the same behavior and predicting different results because after all, I knew something. Lol.

So what I am getting at here is more of a discussion along the lines of surrender. In other words, now that we know something is amiss, what will we do to react to it? In other words, not all movements are going to be ETA's - if any - real soon so what will you do?

-How many don't want any watch without a real ETA?

-How many don't care?

-How many will try to buy a cheap Asian version then buy a real one from Otto or wherever and drop it in along with other mods?

-How many think all future reps will have A7750's in them and those silly Chinese will never make another movement, ever? LOL...

[jdkno]

I understand what you are getting at. I am with you the reps only come one way sometimes two. WHy not buy it with the cheaper movement and buy a Swiss yourself and have it put in, in the end that is the only way to be sure you are getting a 100% swiss movement.

On the other hand I do agree with some on the board as far as Copy movements being advertised and sold as ETA. I think it is wrong to charge someone extra for an ETA if all you are giving them is a Asian copy.

For me I just buy what I can if I like the watch, if the movement dies I will deal with it then.

[TeeJay]

I know that you said nothing about 'the truth', but I can't really discuss this topic without refering to it...

Personally, I couldn't care less what movement is in a watch. Asian, Swiss, Swinese, I really, honestly, couldn't care less.

It tells the time, that's all that matters.

By preference, I will always go with the cheapest option, so that means Asian. I'm happy to do that as I find Asian movements accurate and reliable enough for my purposes. I don't plan on taking the watch in an AD and trying to get them to fix anything, so no need for a Swiss movement.

With regards 'the Truth'. I think items should be accurately listed for sale, simply as a matter of courtesy and honor. I couldn't care less what is in something, as long as people are being honest about it. Anything else, it's up to the person to make the choice of spending their money

[offshore]

Robbie,

One issue, which i think we have overlooked in this whole debate, is parts availability on the Asians.

To my knowledge, there is not a good availability (if any) on parts.

Either on the Seagulls, or Hangzhous, and it would appear that the ETA clones aren't 1:1!

And I can tell you that I have had discussions with these manufacturers, about having an ability to be a parts supplier, with absolutely no luck.

To me, this is one very important plus for true ETA. Albeit ETA seem to almost have a death wish, as they are now forcing their parts prices up as well.

The other big question in my mind ( and I wish I had an answer for this one)....is why are Swatch/ETA continuing to push this policy.

We know they have a number of manufacturing plants in Asia.

Surely they are not going to just give up market share that easily?

What is going to happen to their production capacity?

Are they just going to close down these plants?

This is (was) the biggest manufacturer of movements in the world.

Must say I am at a total loss to explain these seeming contradictions.

Maybe there is still a sting in the tail, that we haven't seen yet?

Or am I missing the bigger picture?

Offshore

[RobbieG]

Thanks OS - these are all more great offshoots to the issue and I'm glad we can move past a lot of the old fingerpointing. Maybe more can weigh in on what the future may hold. ETA is maybe going to become a dead issue but if so what takes its place. The industry still needs decent quality movements and everything isn't a 7750 layout - or is it? LOL...

[DemonSlayer]

The only time(s) I care if the movement is ETA or clone is the following:

When I intend to wear the watch for more than 10 years/ I want to remain as a permanent part of my collection indefinitely.

The main concerns I have with clone movements are whether or not they are serviceable, and if parts do wear out and I need replacements, how easy is it to obtain these parts.

If the clone movement was entirely serviceable with no issues, and parts were available easily, I wouldn't really give a sh!t whether or not my watch had a clone or real ETA movement.

I would also readily buy watches with asian 21.6K movements, but I don't think I would have these serviced, instead look to buy a brand new replacement movement. If I had the skill I would then swap the movement out myself, or ask a watchmaker to do it.

[PAMman]

If it is a watch that I really want to keep, then I will want an ETA movement. I don't really care if I buy an Asian clone as long as it is straight swap for the Swiss ETA - I don't wnt to be messing about with wrong hand sizes and cutting off dial feet etc. I have bought loads of reps and all (apart from the secs @ 6 Portuguese) have run faultlessly. The chronos have all been Asian 7750's but they're still all OK. My SOSF, 3x SMP, UPO, Ingy, etc etc have supposedly been Swiss and I expect that the earlier ones actually were - maybe they all are. My Panerai have all been Swiss 6497 (original bridges), plus ETA2893 PAM029 and ETA2892 PAM027. I know that the majority of my reps are genuine Swiss and I don't really care about the rest. The only watches that I have upgraded and spent money on are the Panerai and they all have gen movements. The rest were cheap but good quality watches in their own right and if one packs up and needs a new movement then I will drop in a Swiss. Otherwise I haven't spent any further money on them and don't intend to, other than maybe having the Ingy AR'd.

[offshore]

In reviewing the current pricing on Chinese movements, I see Borel have a range, all at under $20.

http://www.julesborel.com/images/movements/MC07page75.gif

And Frei also have a larger range, and nothing is over $40.

So maybe I answer my own question on parts availability....you don't need 'em....just fit a new movement!

Which is exactly what happens in most cases in the quartz business.

But PAMman is also correct in saying that this sort of mentality in itself creates other problems..... incorrect dial feet positions....different stems and hand sizes, which I guarantee is an absolute PIA when retro fitting quartz movements.

The one question I haven't seen really conclusively answered, one way or the other, is are the ETA clones really interchangeable parts wise on a 1:1 basis with ETA.??

Some say Yes, others are saying No.

And BTW, does anyone know where these are coming from?

Could it be that maybe these are actually downgrade movements from ETA factories???

Gee it's great to be involved in a forum such as this, where we can pose all these mysteries and speculate on the future of the world (as we know it )

Offshore

[offshore]

Well, I've just read, in full, that WUS discussion/review.

http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.ph...ear#post1547711

Conclusively, in this instance, the parts are interchangeable (in the main)

Hmm the plot thickens

Or becomes much clearer

Offshore