theflyingdutchman Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Good evening Since yesterday I have found Jaeger LeCoultre dirty little secret – I have found out that the global high end watch brand Ingersoll makes Jaeger LeCoultre watches in the night shift…they just change the logo and some small things that Ingersoll cannot get them for piracy! From now on I will stop buying Jaeger LeCoultre and only throw my money at Ingersoll…. What about you? Regards, Theflyingdutchmen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest asim Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 do you have a source? and how much is that ingersoll watch displayed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theflyingdutchman Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 do you have a source? and how much is that ingersoll watch displayed? Just check ebay...250374396446 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidestro Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Complete [censored]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theflyingdutchman Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 ATTENTION this was irony! Actually it looks to me as if the Ingersoll producer also could be a rep producer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 The Ingersoll Watch Company grew out of a mail order business (R H Ingersoll & Bro) started in New York City in 1882 by 21 year old Robert Hawley Ingersoll and his brother Charles Henry. The company initially sold low-cost items such as rubber stamps. The first watches were introduced into the catalogue in 1892, supplied by the Waterbury Clock Company. In 1896 Ingersoll introduced the "Yankee" watch priced at $1.00. It was cheaply mass produced from stamped parts and without jewels so that it would be affordable to everyone. They were producing 8,000 per day by 1899, and started advertising that 10,000 dealers carried their "dollar watch." Over twenty years nearly forty million of these watches were sold, and Ingersoll coined the phrase "The watch that made the dollar famous!" Theodore Roosevelt mentioned that during his hunting trip in Africa he was described as "the man from the country where Ingersoll was produced." In 1904 Ingersoll opened a store in London, England. In 1905 Robert sailed to England and introduced the "Crown" pocket watch for 5 shillings, which was the same value as $1 at the time. These were made by a British subsidiary, Ingersoll Ltd, initially assembled from imported parts, and later made entirely in their London factory. These watches were made until the late 1920s, after the American parent company had collapsed. Ingersoll bought the Trenton Watch Company in 1908, and the New England Watch Company in 1914. By 1916, the company was producing 16,000 watches per day in 10 different models. In 1917 they produced another popular watch with 7 jewels called the "Reliance". In 1919 Ingersoll developed a watch with the so called "night design", the "Radiolite" with luminous dial. Ingersoll Watch Company went bankrupt in 1921 during the recession that followed World War I. It was bought by Waterbury Clock in 1922 for $1,500,000. In 1942 U.S. Time Corporation (now Timex Corporation) acquired Waterbury Clock and continued using the Ingersoll brand. After the Second World War, the British company, Ingersoll Ltd, joined with Smiths Industries Ltd and Vickers Armstrong in setting up the Anglo-Celtic Company Ltd on the Ynyscedwyn estate. This was on the outskirts of the village of Ystradgynlais, near Swansea, Wales. The first model featured the same movement as the earlier British Ingersolls, now designated calibre PY. These watches were branded Ingersoll Triumph and Smiths Empire. Ingersoll Ltd pulled out of the venture in 1969. Between 1946 and 1980, when the factory closed down, over 30,000,000 watches were made, and exported to 60 different countries throughout the world. Yeah, that's 30 million watches boys. Not that any are ever guilty of thinking cheap watch sales are insignificant to high end competitors - or that high end rep sales generated on these boards have any significance at all in contributing to the global sales of inexpensive watches produced in China - rep or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 I see a slight resemblance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLudlowe Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 The only problem is that neither watch bears more than a passing resemblence to the actual JLC Doumetre- More likely the rep maker that makes the JCL replica also sells it under the Ingersol label Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theflyingdutchman Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 thanks for the Ingersoll update....I guess that their production company maybe is /or could also making reps ....who knows! ...but we all would most likely enjoy visiting that company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 LOL...that is bull***t. man, obviously you have never owned a gen Jaeger. I own an ingersoll too given from my (now) ex gf. OMG they are night and day...you should have seen Jaeger's movement. AP is no match really for the smoothness of the movement. And also, the duometre chronographe you have is the fake version and it looks nothing like the real duometre, which someone posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Oh I am sorry OP. I think you mean the Jaeger REP is made by the same people who makes GEN INGERSOL? right? well if that is what you mean, I apologise, disregard my previous msg.. the reps look alike and yes, you are better off buying a gen. That duometre rep is really bad. Edited February 21, 2009 by arrowax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 LOL...that is bull***t. man, obviously you have never owned a gen Jaeger. I own an ingersoll too given from my (now) ex gf. OMG they are night and day...you should have seen Jaeger's movement. AP is no match really for the smoothness of the movement. And also, the duometre chronographe you have is the fake version and it looks nothing like the real duometre, which someone posted. Regardless of what the OP meant or didn't mean, you should probably try and refrain coming off like that regardless around here. It kinda lands like a lead balloon. But you are new by a just a few weeks so I guess we can cut you some slack. That said, you also seem to fancy being knowledgeable about Jaeger, but maybe not quite enough to comment on their movements given some of your statements. Allow me to educate you a bit so in the future you will know what you are talking about regardless of your tone. As a collector primarily of genuine timepieces, I have absorbed a fair amount of information over the years. Jaeger-LeCoultre is well known as being the largest producer of high grade movements, and they are well finished to be sure. But to say that they are more finely finished than the movements of Audemars Piguet is simply incorrect. It isn't a subjective choice in terms of what you or I think looks better to us, it is very much an objective artform with very quantifiable things one can look for. Jaeger has above all else been interested in economies of scale as a manufacturer and as such has refined machine level finishing to an artform. When you make over 40 high end calibers of your own you kind of have to. But make no mistake, accolades in finish of high end timepieces are never given for machine finished products. The highest level of the art form is found in work only attainable by hand. To the untrained eye, JLC's bevel work on bridges may seem beautiful, but the perfect, rounded chamfering is a dead givaway. Also absent are fine circular graining on wheels, perlage done by hand with that perfect uniform depth that requires a feel a machine could never do, perfect solarisation on barrels, and the super fine flat polishing that yields a piano black color to steel surfaces at certain angles. Don't get me wrong, many other companies deliver JLC's high finish levels (some better than others) primarily via machine. IWC is another that comes to mind, Blancpain, GP, Cartier, Paiget, Zenith and one which is kind of in the middle of machine vs. hand, although sometimes thought of much more highly - Glashutte Original. On the other hand, the cream has consistently risen to the top with 5 brands over the years in terms of the highest hand finishing skills. One can be literally lost for days with a loupe in all of them as they say. Those manufactories are A Lange & Sohne, Breguet, Patek Phillipe, Vacheron Constantin, and you guessed it Audemars Piguet. Nearly all movements from these manufactories are not only finished to perfection on the parts that you can see, but in most cases on parts you cannot see, deep in the movements as well. It takes a trained and/or passionate eye to see the difference - or a trip to the factories to see how it is done, but trust me, the differences are most certainly there. And don't get me wrong, the finish on all these movements are identical to the hand finished ones at a distance and with the naked eye - and there is nothing wrong with any of them. Beautiful to say the least. But you made a statement of JLC finish superiority which needed to be corrected and clarified for the good of the membership. Hand finishing is an extremely high artform, and like all things horological, in our world it's all in the details. In closing I also have to admit I got a chuckle out of something else you said. You had said that AP movements were "no match" for Jaeger's. I'll let you in on a little secret - AP uses a basic JLC chronograph ebauche in its most popular and highest selling model - The Royal Oak Offshore's with seconds at 12. That said, AP is completely responsible for all the modification, final finishing and decoration of the JLC movements in those watches. So ironically, when you are comparing JLC and AP in that case, you are comparing two watches with the same movement - one decorated by machine and the other by hand. Just thought you might be interested in learing that. So then does the JLC movement have a superior finish? Again, I must not be too critical of machine finishing as my current collection includes just five genuine pieces all with movements finished by machine. But I have had the pleasure of owning and handling many fine pieces from the hand decorated camp over the years. There is a difference and it is sometimes not so subtle once you know what you are looking at and have all the facts straight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kronos twin Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Jeez, Robbie. I feel like just took a semester in your most excellent course. If I learn half of what you know about 1/5 of this world, I'd be a proud man. Thank you for this information. I see it as a call to be as knowledgeable so that one day, I can be a citizen like you in this world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Robbie. not trying to be an ass here but we all know that AP uses jaeger movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceberg1459 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Jeez, Robbie. I feel like just took a semester in your most excellent course. If I learn half of what you know about 1/5 of this world, I'd be a proud man. Thank you for this information. I see it as a call to be as knowledgeable so that one day, I can be a citizen like you in this world. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) also you have to understand why i wrote it. I thought the OP said that the gen Duometre are comparable to ingersol. but then I take my statement back and realized that he compared it to gen ingersol. That makes a huge difference. as to comparing AP and JLC. I compared AP ROO with JLC gransport chrono, both gens I own long time ago and The movement on the JLC wins hands down. edit: (added) I am saying it is BS comparing gen ignersol to gen JLC because from the movements alone you can see how smooth the JLC will be and the duometre chronographe is on of their latest creation so it is impossible to compare them. Nothign to do with me being new here, I know watches quite well, not as well as members here, but I know enough and I own enough gen to be objective. Edited February 21, 2009 by arrowax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 LOL...that is bull***t. man, obviously you have never owned a gen Jaeger. I own an ingersoll too given from my (now) ex gf. OP, I apologise once again for the quote above, didn't mean to sound like that. After I read it again I realised how rude I was. I am a very very huge JLC fan and the only gens I buy nowadays because they are not copied (yet, hopefully never), so I was a bit angered when I read your post comparing JLC and ingersol. Once again, hope you didn't take it personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Robbie. not trying to be an ass here but we all know that AP uses jaeger movement. Oh but you were being an ass, which is why you I suppose felt the need to apologize for it. You said, AP is no match for the "smoothness" of the Jaeger movement as a blanket statement. So if you knew about the JLC/AP connection why would you make the statement that you did? Not that I know what you mean by smoothness of course, given it isn't a term used in horology I know of. AP and most other makers use lots of ebauches from lots of movement manufactories - to the point that it is almost of no consequence what those ebauches are. The truth in horology comes from what is done with ebauches as it is a given the train is fine if anyone chooses to use them. The Asian 7750 is an ebauche as far as I'm concerned, and if properly lubricated and decorated by anyone I mentioned would be as usesull and beautiful as any other. I guess I just find unfounded brand loyalty absurd as you seem to have about JLC. Facts are facts but there is nothing inherently special about JLC or any other manufacturer for that matter unless comments are specifically qualified with facts, like "JLC makes over 40 movements" or, "Lange uses untreated German Silver for 3/4 plates." or, "Vacheron is the oldest continuously running manufactory." - or whatever. So when I read that someone is trying to compare movement finishing and doesn't know what they are talking about and is doing it with attitude I figure he will expect to be challenged. And hey, I wasn't doing anything on Saturday afternoon so it might as well be me. No matter though. Mostly I just decided to post to tell you there is no excuse for putting out the attitude in your original post. You certainly didn't come off as being knowledgeable about anything but yet presented your opinion as if you are an expert on genuine watch movements. The rest just came out to clarify why the inference you made was incorrect with some information that maybe the membership might find useful. Of course, the members might not find any use in what I wrote, but I'm certain it is more useful than "LOL...that is bull***t." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Jeez, Robbie. I feel like just took a semester in your most excellent course. If I learn half of what you know about 1/5 of this world, I'd be a proud man. Thank you for this information. I see it as a call to be as knowledgeable so that one day, I can be a citizen like you in this world. Just standard stuff you can find by surfing and reading and visiting manufactories, but thanks just the same. A $1.50 in late charges at your local public library will get you similar useless information, although for my money probably not as compelling and fun. Although as a citizen of the world I'm not sure I measure up. I'm just a dumb trader with a watch habit. I think the only reason they call me a citizen now in my country is because I have a Social Security number. After all, it is us "Wall Street Guys" that wrecked the whole world right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Oh but you were being an ass, which is why you I suppose felt the need to apologize for it. You said, AP is no match for the "smoothness" of the Jaeger movement as a blanket statement. So if you knew about the JLC/AP connection why would you make the statement that you did? Not that I know what you mean by smoothness of course, given it isn't a term used in horology I know of. AP and most other makers use lots of ebauches from lots of movement manufactories - to the point that it is almost of no consequence what those ebauches are. The truth in horology comes from what is done with ebauches as it is a given the train is fine if anyone chooses to use them. The Asian 7750 is an ebauche as far as I'm concerned, and if properly lubricated and decorated by anyone I mentioned would be as usesull and beautiful as any other. I guess I just find unfounded brand loyalty absurd as you seem to have about JLC. Facts are facts but there is nothing inherently special about JLC or any other manufacturer for that matter unless comments are specifically qualified with facts, like "JLC makes over 40 movements" or, "Lange uses untreated German Silver for 3/4 plates." or, "Vacheron is the oldest continuously running manufactory." - or whatever. So when I read that someone is trying to compare movement finishing and doesn't know what they are talking about and is doing it with attitude I figure he will expect to be challenged. And hey, I wasn't doing anything on Saturday afternoon so it might as well be me. No matter though. Mostly I just decided to post to tell you there is no excuse for putting out the attitude in your original post. You certainly didn't come off as being knowledgeable about anything but yet presented your opinion as if you are an expert on genuine watch movements. The rest just came out to clarify why the inference you made was incorrect with some information that maybe the membership might find useful. Of course, the members might not find any use in what I wrote, but I'm certain it is more useful than "LOL...that is bull***t." hahahaha...first of all, I read many of your stuff and it really helps and I appreciate it. But I suppose your point is just to just help the guy cause I wrote BS? I wrote 5 lines and you analyzed it and you wrote an essay? and from the 5 lines you think I don't know what I am talking about? don't think just because i'm new that I don't know my stuff robie. If I do care to explain things as you do(you wrote 25 lines from my 5 liner), you might see me more knowledgeable. its just that I don't care. I wrote 5 lines man. hahaha Anyway, I supposed what I said did not help and if you are trying to tell me that i was wrong, it's ok. I apologised already, twice. But don't just think that I am new that I don't know my watches. Me being a jerk with my words does not mean that I do not know about AP's and Jaegers. Also, i could have deleted my original msg, but I did not, I admit I was rude and I wrote it in heat of the moment and I apologised for it. But really? from 5 lines you could read my knowledge? lol... well...get on with it man. I already apologized twice and not trying to fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Right, you have now apologized twice and now even edited and changed some of the messages so they look better too. I forgive you now so just drop it. Oh and as for the length of my posts, check me out - I always write essays on everything. Its part of a personality defect I have. lol. Just ask my friend Lanikai. Kind of a joke around here dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowax Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 i did. i do enjoy your write ups. except when it is about me.. hahahahahaah...jk bought a couple of reps from your write up too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Glad to have helped. We have a very open and helpful community here, and again welcome arrow. Speaking of movements, if you are interested, I just did a couple articles on handwound chronograph movements - specifically the Lemania 2310 and the F. Piguet 1185. The former is now in the Knowledge Base section and the latter is new and still in General Discussion. In all serious I would welcome your comments if you have to time to check them out (as long as you don't say what I wrote is bullsh*t). Just kidding about that part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Could you guys please just GET A ROOM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 You see that? True love. That is how we roll on RWG. The only forum where people not only apologize when they are out of line, but the other side actually accepts it and then they become friends for life. There is just a sickening amount of love around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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