What would be your "Red Dawn" moment?

[fat.tail.event]

So I have the movie Red Dawn shipping out on from netflix today. There are very polarized reviews of the movie on there...people rating the movie/acting - 1/2 stars...people rating the story, conflict, patriotic aspetcts - 4/5 stars. (For those of you who dont know the background on the flick...its 1980s America, the Russians and Cubans launch a joint attack on US soil, a group of high schoolers watch as an air/ground invasion takes root in their rural town, they team up and begin a guerrilla campaign against the Reds)

It really begs the question, under what conditions would you truly feel compelled to band together and fight for your country?

I consider myself a very patriotic, constitutionalist citizen. Spent two years as a Midshipman before I decided the Navy wasnt for me and flirted with the public sector, almost joining CIA as an analyst before determining that finance was my ticket. I fundamentally disagree with much of US military policies, mainly our deployments overseas. The current conflicts and Wars on ____ do not motivate me or stoke my patriotism whatsoever. But if something were to go down like shown in the movie, I would be happy to employ my 30 odd six, hunting shotguns etc. for purposes other than recreation. If our Constitution were truly in jeopardy, figuratively, I would be in.

[sbreene]

Love Red Dawn. I always fantasized about that happening in my high school (however unlikely that may have been in Seattle) but now I focus my end of the world type fantasy on preparing for a zombie infestation. After viewing Watchmen last night it did bring back some cold war memories.

"WOLVERINES!!!"

[jfreeman420]

I was ready to go after 9/11. Even being overweight and out of shape was ready to put some islamic extremeists to sleep. I inquired but I was to old and too fat.

Keep in mind I have always been anti war, anti government and anti viloence (for the most part ) but you step foot in my country and its on!!! I am still ready to go. Give me an m16 and the location and heads wil roll.

Other than that Im realy a nice guy.........

[TeeJay]

My first move would be to loot me a wetsuit, to keep zombie teeth away

[Demsey]

I was ready to go after 9/11.

I thought about this thread a good long while and logged back on to state just this sentiment^^^^^^^^^^

The proponents of anti-gun lobby have maintained a seemingly good argument for many decades; "Oh please, the Second Amendment was established when the founding fathers speculated repercussions from Great Britian, uh duh, the Revolution is over, we won, it's 1983, get real........" Oh. Really.

After 9/11 that argument is not even moot. I frequently fly along the West side of the Kennedy Space Center restricted area. If the FAA would allow me to fit my Cessna with LAU rocket pods I would. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean Achmed is not out to get you! I have three weapons and none of them could possibly be mistaken for 'sporting guns', unless of course you consider killiing terrorists 'sport'.

Yes, I am mentally unstable, but that has no bearing on the argument. So. Save it.

I'm ready. Oh yeah.

[TeeJay]

I find it somewhat interesting that people seem to think that 'terrorism' is going to bring about some kind of post-apocalyptic existence. This reminds me of the 'fear of Communism' of the McCarthy era, and I wonder if it's some kind of reflection of the American Psyche....

Personally, I think the world has much more to fear from biological outbreaks and other forms of contagion (research labs, etc) than some misguided fanatics...

[Chicken Manny]

If you are lucky enough to live long enough you will see many things you never expected. Having spent a good portion of 5-years service in places almost nobody can find on a map (even me at times) I can tell you the world is full of some very bad people. You only have to look at the 10-year transformation of Sarajevo (1984-1994) to see how things can go wrong very quickly.

If it ever comes here, I've got room in the pickup for two more including gear and ammo. Wolverines BYOB !

[ChipSlap]

As you may be able to tell from my avatar, in my youth I did sign up to be a blunt instrument for Uncle Sam. I served during the first Gulf War. They had their chance to use me as such, they won't get another. Young men are often ready to experiment with homicide. In mature societies, there are enough older men acting as control rods to hold the young ones back. At this point, it would take an actual invasion to get me to shoot someone now (either of my personal home or of my nation). I have no desire to help enforce US hegemony on the world. It only harms America in the long run. I also repeatedly advise all young men within earshot--including my 2 sons--that there are better ways to serve the nation. In line with TeeJay's comment, now I'm a scientist doing pharmacological research. Disease is a much bigger threat. For a comparison, malaria kills 1 million humans/year. Osama bin Laden could never do 1% of that damage.

[TeeJay]

If you are lucky enough to live long enough you will see many things you never expected. Having spent a good portion of 5-years service in places almost nobody can find on a map (even me at times) I can tell you the world is full of some very bad people. You only have to look at the 10-year transformation of Sarajevo (1984-1994) to see how things can go wrong very quickly.

If it ever comes here, I've got a room in the pickup for two more including gear and ammo. Wolverines BYOB !

Oh for sure, the world's definitely got some sick people in it, and, in their own way, they could certainly make people's lives a living hell, but for things to become an international (or possibly Continental) situation, it's going to be because of contagion, as confirmed by ChipSlap's comment, so it's things like that which concern me, much more than political/ideological skirmishes, simply because of their larger scale, thus greater impact globally...

[Demsey]

I find it somewhat interesting that people seem to think that 'terrorism' is going to bring about some kind of post-apocalyptic existence. This reminds me of the 'fear of Communism' of the McCarthy era, and I wonder if it's some kind of reflection of the American Psyche....

Personally, I think the world has much more to fear from biological outbreaks and other forms of contagion (research labs, etc) than some misguided fanatics...

In 2045, the White Anglo European immigrant will be statistically a 'minority' in the US. Spend a day in Santa Fe de Bogota`, Colombia. There is a need for the WASP to be wary 'there'. There will soon be good reason for the WASP to be wary 'here'. In South Florida and Southern California it is already.

My Mother-in-law clips and sends a selection of newspaper clippings from the London Times as she comes across them that she thinks my wife will appreciate or find interesting. One cited; currently the fifth most common name registered to natural born U.K. citizens is Mohammed. That's a far cry from Trevor, John, William or Michael.

So pretty much what Manny said. I don't think the 'Red Dawn' moment will come as a paramilitary event depicted in the film. It will be a slow blossoming social affair, then, by mathematical progression and archaic immigration legislation, a flooding. So yes, 'biological outbreak' certainly. It won't be single celled organisms though. They will be very complex, and organised. Walking upright, or something close to it.

[fakemaster]

I would imagine people will do what they always do. Roll over and take it.

[tomhorn]

It would take a full out invasion of the US by a force large enough that the military couldn't handle it with their existing forces to get me to take up arms.

Of course I am probably too old like jfreeman420 (hopefully not too fat though), so I'm guessing it would take that kind of an invasion before I was allowed to have a gun by the military. I would be willing to do whatever I could to support in any sized dispute on US soil behind the scenes if needed.

Edited March 16, 2009 by tomhorn

[TeeJay]

In 2045, the White Anglo European immigrant will be statistically a 'minority' in the US. Spend a day in Santa Fe de Bogota`, Colombia. There is a need for the WASP to be wary 'there'. There will soon be good reason for the WASP to be wary 'here'. In South Florida and Southern California it is already.

My Mother-in-law clips and sends a selection of newspaper clippings from the London Times as she comes across them that she thinks my wife will appreciate or find interesting. One cited; currently the fifth most common name registered to natural born U.K. citizens is Mohammed. That's a far cry from Trevor, John, William or Michael.

So pretty much what Manny said. I don't think the 'Red Dawn' moment will come as a paramilitary event depicted in the film. It will be a slow blossoming social affair, then, by mathematical progression and archaic immigration legislation, a flooding. So yes, 'biological outbreak' certainly. It won't be single celled organisms though. They will be very complex, and organised. Walking upright, or something close to it.

I read several years ago, that by 2010, white British-born people will statistically be a minority in London, and the first time in history that an indiginous population will have become a minority without war, famine or invasion being a contributing factor. America has always been an 'ethnic melting pot', so that doesn't surprize, or particularly concern me, as it has always been populated by a mixture of races, and it's no surprize that the demographics will change, due to genetic reasons. For it to happen in a primarily 'white' country like England, however, is more of an indication of immigration and other factors... I'm not sure how accurate it was, but in the movie SuperBad, it was stated that Muhammad (and spelling derivatives) is the most popular name on the planet. (Islam is also the fastest 'growing' religion in the US.) That said though, all that is going to lead to is a different social status quo, and not really something to have people 'turning survivalist'. Where I live in the UK, there has been a huge influx of Eastern European immigrants, even in the five years since I met my wife and moved to the area. Being from 'down south', I've always been immersed in multi-cultural society, and never had a problem with it, but it does make one take notice, when one cannot walk down the street without seeing large crowds of Eastern Europeans (and hearing their languages) when only a few years ago, there was not such a large immigrant community in the area. So I stand by my original comments: I'm more concerned about some kind of contagion (organized or otherwise) bring about a 'post apocalyptic' scenario, than I am concerned by things such as immigration or misguided fanatics.

[Demsey]

I read several years ago, that by 2010, white British-born people will statistically be a minority in London, and the first time in history that an indiginous population will have become a minority without war, famine or invasion being a contributing factor. America has always been an 'ethnic melting pot', so that doesn't surprize, or particularly concern me, as it has always been populated by a mixture of races, and it's no surprize that the demographics will change, due to genetic reasons. For it to happen in a primarily 'white' country like England, however, is more of an indication of immigration and other factors... I'm not sure how accurate it was, but in the movie SuperBad, it was stated that Muhammad (and spelling derivatives) is the most popular name on the planet. (Islam is also the fastest 'growing' religion in the US.) That said though, all that is going to lead to is a different social status quo, and not really something to have people 'turning survivalist'. Where I live in the UK, there has been a huge influx of Eastern European immigrants, even in the five years since I met my wife and moved to the area. Being from 'down south', I've always been immersed in multi-cultural society, and never had a problem with it, but it does make one take notice, when one cannot walk down the street without seeing large crowds of Eastern Europeans (and hearing their languages) when only a few years ago, there was not such a large immigrant community in the area. So I stand by my original comments: I'm more concerned about some kind of contagion (organized or otherwise) bring about a 'post apocalyptic' scenario, than I am concerned by things such as immigration or misguided fanatics.

Good post, excellent points T'J...........yes the 'melting pot'. However the 'melting pot' is now more of a TV dinner. Not sure if that aberration of cuisine translates, but here's a graphic:

You see, the veg is isolated from the mash, from the meat, from the dessert, by hard lines. It's not a meal as much as a collection of questionably nutritious food groups in one box. Trust me, it's junk. Once upon a time embracing the 'American Dream', which certainly differs in vision from a pre-war immigrant to the natural born citizen three, four, five generations deep into the thing and those who flood in now by kicking in the door and squatting, was all about taking stock in a Constitution as a common point to the 'Law of the Land' and seeking allusive opportunity for prosperity. Things worth disenfranchising yourself and family from cultural roots to meld into something new, be part of it and still bring who you 'were' intact. The assumed capitulation from the immigrant or natural born was best summed up by JFK at his inauguration "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". That's a very far cry from the current atmosphere of US 'entitlement' by not only a soon to be majority of it's citizens but also heaps illegal aliens.

Now, the US is an open air market, with no doorman, and no store detective. The shelves are raped for the easy pickens and the looters send the quick cash from the fenced goods back to where it was they came. They stock pile it there where a 'dollar' goes farther than the baht, or the yen, or the peso and count the days when they can return 'home', never wanting to meld with America from the first. They hold their noses and harbor disdain from the moment they waltz through Customs or jump the fence. There is no more 'melting pot' mentality, just self induced, deliberate aparthied from groups who come to the US to grab what they can because they think they are entitled or because it is relatively 'easy' considering from where they came. They are ignorant as to why France gifted us the Lady in the Harbor, what words are written on the plaque that sits below and what JFK was even addressing. That is merely one thing. The worse portion of the equation are those who were indeed born here, but have no more allegiance to the flag or want to contribute than the casual rapist with a H1B work Visa from the other four corners. I can kind of respect the former more than the latter. I think our new President is going to have a heck of a time motivating the masses to do his good work.

The oath of enlistment that the President shares with servicemen begins;

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..............." The fact it were written in that fashion is very telling to me.

So, Storm Troopers from Russia and bugs are the least of my worries. I know it is begging the question of the OP, but if arms are going to be raised, it will be Civil in nature, that much is part of the American psyche I can assure you. History has shown this to be true.

Still, that premise is decades, upon decades away. Not really worth a 'worry' per se`, but perhaps for my great, great grandchildren? So I will concur, perhaps the next big 'crisis' will be as you say, 'biological'. Still, what will it be?

SARS or Anthrax?

[TeeJay]

Good post, excellent points T'J...........yes the 'melting pot'. However the 'melting pot' is now more of a TV dinner. Not sure if that aberration of cuisine translates, but here's a graphic:

You see, the veg is isolated from the mash, from the meat, from the dessert, by hard lines. It's not a meal as much as a collection of questionably nutritious food groups in one box. Trust me, it's junk. Once upon a time embracing the 'American Dream', which certainly differs in vision from a pre-war immigrant to the natural born citizen three, four, five generations deep into the thing and those who flood in now by kicking in the door and squatting, was all about taking stock in a Constitution as a common point to the 'Law of the Land' and seeking allusive opportunity for prosperity. Things worth disenfranchising yourself and family from cultural roots to meld into something new, be part of it and still bring who you 'were' intact. The assumed capitulation from the immigrant or natural born was best summed up by JFK at his inauguration "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". That's a very far cry from the current atmosphere of US 'entitlement' by not only a soon to be majority of it's citizens but also heaps illegal aliens.

Now, the US is an open air market, with no doorman, and no store detective. The shelves are raped for the easy pickens and the looters send the quick cash from the fenced goods back to where it was they came. They stock pile it there where a 'dollar' goes farther than the baht, or the yen, or the peso and count the days when they can return 'home', never wanting to meld with America from the first. They hold their noses and harbor disdain from the moment they waltz through Customs or jump the fence. There is no more 'melting pot' mentality, just self induced, deliberate aparthied from groups who come to the US to grab what they can because they think they are entitled or because it is relatively 'easy' considering from where they came. They are ignorant as to why France gifted us the Lady in the Harbor, what words are written on the plaque that sits below and what JFK was even addressing. That is merely one thing. The worse portion of the equation are those who were indeed born here, but have no more allegiance to the flag or want to contribute than the casual rapist with a H1B work Visa from the other four corners. I can kind of respect the former more than the latter. I think our new President is going to have a heck of a time motivating the masses to do his good work.

The oath of enlistment that the President shares with servicemen begins;

"I, _____, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..............." The fact it were written in that fashion is very telling to me.

So, Storm Troopers from Russia and bugs are the least of my worries. I know it is begging the question of the OP, but if arms are going to be raised, it will be Civil in nature, that much is part of the American psyche I can assure you. History has shown this to be true.

Still, that premise is decades, upon decades away. Not really worth a 'worry' per se`, but perhaps for my great, great grandchildren? So I will concur, perhaps the next big 'crisis' will be as you say, 'biological'. Still, what will it be?

SARS or Anthrax?

SARS or Anthrax? That shit's for pussies, Ebola's where it's at

I think you're absolutely spot on with your analogy, and indeed, the portions are isolated at the moment, but, that, to a certain degree, is simply Human nature, to seek out 'the familiar'. That's if you're looking down on the TV dinner while it's still in it's pre-packed tray... It's a different matter though, if that tray is to get 'upended' over a plate... Then things can mix together...

I was watching a show the other week on life inside US jails, and the inmates were explaining how, even though there is no 'officially implemented' segregation, in the communal areas, the various ethnicities automatically segregated themselves, so that in itself is interesting. I think you're quite right about unchecked immigration, it is without a doubt, a serious issue, both in America, and here in the UK, but, I can't see how the governments can 'put the genie back in the bottle', without all the bleeding hearts bleating about Human Rights. As far as I'm concerned, anyone has the right to want to move to another place to improve their life, but, as with all things in life, there must be criteria and qualifications to meet. The Eastern Europeans I mentioned before, are a prime example of how bureaucracy can be abused, when people from countries on the verge of EU membership entered the UK as 'tourists', only to then have their parent countries then gain EU membership, and then be able to remain in the UK as EU Citizens, even when, had they actually tried to emigrate through the legal channels, they would be turned away because of an inability to speak English. Just glancing through the court register of the local paper shows a startlingly high percentage of foreign names listed, and while the amount of foreign names is still a minority, given that it is still a larger percentage than they actually representing in the community, it shows how those people are only coming to a country to exploit it. I think you're quite right to say that there are going to be some 'civil wars' breaking out in the not to distant future, but I think you're being overly optimistic in your time-frame. I think if the global economy continues as it is, and if illegal immigration is not handled more decisively, I can see trouble kicking off within a decade. Even that, however, I do not think will actually lead to a total breakdown of society... That's what outbreaks are for

[ChipSlap]

I'm reminded of the episode of Taxi where Louie, Jim, and one of the other guys can't agree on which emergency they should imagine is happening to drive them into their fallout shelter. As a compromise, Louie says "Ok, it'll be atomic war that starts an earthquake that sets off civil rioting."

[jdkno]

You know it is sad to say but with as spineless as this country has become a "Red Dawn" scenario is not that far fetched.

All they need to do is strap 1 or 2 innocent people to the top of each of their tanks and APC's and they could probably get to the White House lawn without being shot at or blown up. Once they got to the White House lawn our govt. would still need to check out the popular opinion polls before making the choice between handing the country over or killing a few innocent people.

Makes you wonder what our Founding Fathers would do to tighten up border security, or what they would think about the hard working members of society having to work even harder to support the ones who do not want to work.