Reps And The Water

[FxrAndy]

Most people here would cover there rpes if it started to rain i belive, we all want at least 95% acuracy but when it comes to water resistance many people just say well what do you expect from a rep. Well a couple of weeks i was sailing in the baltic sea (Team building week from work, i dont do this all the time), the crew and i were on deck having a beer and a chat and the the subject came round to my cheep old seadweller rep, they knew it was a rep but thought it would not be water proof so to prove it (i had been drinking) would be at least splash proof i tied it to a 20 m line and chucked it into a water, boy was i relived when it was still on the line when it was pulled up as we only had 15 m of water under us at the time, but there it was still ticking away as it always had! and 3 weeks on still no mist or problems. I will post a pic of it when i find it.

The next one that has proved its self is my Aqua Terra from EL, 7 days of pool water, sea water very salty black sea and down about 4 meters, showering and covered in beer and what have you and it has not missed a beat. Here is a crap shot but it is under the water in the pool

All i have done with this watch was make sure the crown was screwd down and the crown was tight. So El i would say that you description of water resistant for a 50m dash in the rain is a bit pesimistic.

So check the back is on screw down the crown and get it wet!!!

[archibald]

This topic oe water resistance comes up a few tmes every summer, for obvious reasons.

Truth be told, most reps probably are a little more water resistant than most dealers claim, but look at it from their perspective: They understand the quality control issues in rep factories and they know that even the new sub they're selling is designed to be water resistant, some pieces will be good to 50m and some will leak like a screen door on the Titanic--so unless they advertise, like eddie does, that it's only good for a 50 yard dash in the rain, people are going to take them scuba diving and then send them back if they leak. The dealers are just being smart--and more importantly-- erring toward honesty.

Me? Unless the dealer's watchsmith or my watchsmith has tested my particular rep, it comes off whe I wash my hands. If some WIS looks at me askance down at the pool because I tke off my TW best LV before I jump in, well...he can kiss my rep colecting ass.

[FxrAndy]

Dont get me wrong i am not saying they are all that good but they are not as bad as some will have you belive.

[Finepics]

From what I have seen with all the watches I have worked on they are made in a standard watch making way. The factories that make them also make watches for the legitimate market so use commonly available parts/techniques. That is that the case tubes are all press fitted into the case (same as gens), they all have an O ring in the tube (same as gens although Panerai's tubes are better engineered), the crowns all have O rings (same as the gens) and the crystals are held in with nylon "I" rings (same as gens), the bezels are also held in with a "I" ring (same as gens) although some are a friction fit with an O ring under them (some fiddys are like this). and finally all the case backs have an O ring (same as gens).

Now the problem with most PAM's is that the CG lever does not tighten the crown to the case (easily remedied) and often the casebacks are only just finger tightened. If you can open it with duct tape it ain't gona be sealed properly.

So, I would happily swim/dive with any of my PAM's so long as those couple of things are sorted out.

[Usil]

the problem with most PAM's is that the CG lever does not tighten the crown to the case (easily remedied)

What is the easy remedy for this? Can you explain?

Usil

[Finepics]

Basically it means grinding some off the feet of the CG to bring it closer to the case. Most often this only means .5mm so does not make a visible difference. Sometimes the CG lever make need some tweaking as it will be very tight when it contacts the crown but not as tight when it is fully closed.

[Watchmeister]

IMHO, most reasonable reps are swimmable out of tbe box. A watch is a watch. There is just not the same level of care. On most better watches I am having them serviced, lumed, etc. and so everything is properly tightened and greased then. The cheapies I don't bother with but they seem to have all survived. Assuming your caseback is tight and your crown is properly installed the only time I get nervous is with chrono and other pushers.

I am not recommending people do this. Although it makes no sense, I have had far better luck with water and extreme sun on my reps than gens. So far a gen AP and Breitling have bit the dust at the beach (watch out for the Navitmer crystal bezel combo on the gen). As for the reps so far nothing. And when one dies I have another 20 to fill the void.

By the way, what would you expect a dealer to say? Drop it off the Empire State building and everything will be fine? In fairness though, most of the time they don't even see the watch they are sending nor are they going to run the waterproof test. So if you give a sh_t about the rep you just bought get it tested.

[Finepics]

I will add that the chrono pushers are also standard pushers - maybe modified to look a certain way - but standard none the less and that means they all have an internal O ring as well. Again these should be no less waterproof than anything else!!

[crystalcranium]

The water resistance rating printed on your replica is a worthless as the brand name that's printed on it. If you consider the $200+ dollars you've spent on your replica disposable, then by all means, roll the dice with water resistance, but my opinion is the replica factories put most of their quality control into the high level of fidelity of appearance, not reliability. You are paying for how close it looks, not how closely it performs. When you have an indistinguishable replica of an M-1 tank that's got a Chevy V-6 under the hood and plastic replica shells, you'll impress the hell out of your friends parking it in the driveway or driving it down main street on the 4th of July, but you'd be a damn fool taking it into downtown Bagdhad. I don't sweat in my reps. I don't wash my hands when wearing them. I treat them as if they are fine china. If your replicas have proven themselves reliable in harsher enviornments, then wear them and enjoy them and be aware, you have rolled the dice and won. It's just something I'm not willing to do. When I plan and save for my dream replica, the last thing I'm going to do with my beautiful piece is dunk it in the drink.

[Watchmeister]

Actually, its not about the materials. It's about who puts them together. I promise you that the active watchsmiths here with a good reputation do a better job of waterproofing your rep then your gen from the ad. If a watchsmith services or mods your watch he will tell you if there are specific sealing issues. I have $10,000 worth of "waterproof" gens which say oitherwise. And if you think your AD has sympathy the minute that warranty runs out you are wrong. Just ask the folks at AP or Breitling - bastards.

As far as I am concerned when you swim with a gen you are rolling the dice on a much larger bet. I sure don't anymore.

[Finepics]

@crystalcranium - sorry but you are wrong. Now my experience has been mainly with PAM's so I will talk about them. As I said they are made alongside regular legitimate watches and standard manufacturing processes are used, and it's precisely the reason why it is then just a case of making an appropriately styled case on a CNC machine. If they really wanted to cut costs then no O rings would be fitted - cases would just be one piece etc etc. Now of course what does not happen is that they actually test them, so things like loose CG levers are to be expected and have to be tweaked as this is certainly something they will not bother to do. As I have also said once things are properly lubed and tightened up then there is no reason why they will not be able to withstand a fair amount of depth. Most commercial watches that are made in exactly the same way are all around 30m ATM and this is where I would pitch all the PAM's I have and have seen, and since the most I am likely to do is swim this is no big deal. There have been many occasions in the past where members have pressure tested their watches and I can think of many that achieved a 300m rating.

I will stress that they do have to be looked at first - no good going for a swim with your new watch on and the EMS packet in the other hand!!!

[chris5264]

For what it is worth, I'll add that I've had almost all of my pam reps apart, checked the o rings and used silicone grease, made sure everything was tight (in particular the CG) and still avoided water until this summer when I decided to start being empirical. In the last few months I've had my pam reps in a lot of water without a single problem. Of course this is probably only a meter or so but I don't dive so serious depth is not an issue for me. It a bigger problem finding good waterproof straps.

[Watchmeister]

I have to echo the "waterproof" straps issue. I tried the 5218 "watreproof" incursores and they have never been the same. Same deal with PAM oem's as well.

[TJGladeRaider]

I understand the concerns, but I thought spending the money and time to find out would be worthwhile.

Rather than experiment with pools, bathtubs and such, I bought a pressure tester made for watches and I published the results - here on this forum, and with the pics to prove it.

Bill

[Pugwash]

Rather than experiment with pools, bathtubs and such, I bought a pressure tester made for watches and I published the results - here on this forum, and with the pics to prove it.

I remember it well. You'd think it was merely a search-engine away ...

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=3000

[crystalcranium]

@crystalcranium - sorry but you are wrong. Now my experience has been mainly with PAM's so I will talk about them. As I said they are made alongside regular legitimate watches and standard manufacturing processes are used, and it's precisely the reason why it is then just a case of making an appropriately styled case on a CNC machine. If they really wanted to cut costs then no O rings would be fitted - cases would just be one piece etc etc. Now of course what does not happen is that they actually test them, so things like loose CG levers are to be expected and have to be tweaked as this is certainly something they will not bother to do. As I have also said once things are properly lubed and tightened up then there is no reason why they will not be able to withstand a fair amount of depth. Most commercial watches that are made in exactly the same way are all around 30m ATM and this is where I would pitch all the PAM's I have and have seen, and since the most I am likely to do is swim this is no big deal. There have been many occasions in the past where members have pressure tested their watches and I can think of many that achieved a 300m rating.

I will stress that they do have to be looked at first - no good going for a swim with your new watch on and the EMS packet in the other hand!!!

These "manufacturers" have no one except the replica consumers to answer to. This is unregulated and standardless manufacturing. A Rolex submariner replica with a screw on caseback and screw down crown thats tests to 150m in a pressure test is in no way is representative of the water resistance reliability of the next one that comes off the line than it is of the one that came before it. I understand your point that a well engineered copy has the potential to be brought up to water resistant specs with greased gaskets etc. I'm not suggesting all replicas are poorly made or engineered, just that you are taking an un-warranteed covered risk that is significant even with cautious checking. Why would one think that replica watches, which, through unfortunate personal experience I have found, don't stand up to the rigours of shock and other stresses as well as inexpensive genuines (what do you think is going to survive a drop from three feet better, a Timex or a replica PAM?) would be as reliable as genuines when it comes to water resistance? The fact is, I don't get my waterproof gens near water either so maybe I'm just phobic. I've got a genuine SMP Chrono Diver that's never seen the shower. The only watch that goes in the drink with me is my Seiko Diver. $150 and infinitly replaceable

Edited August 7, 2006 by crystalcranium

[V]

When I receive my watches I screw the back tightly with rubber washing gloves, tight all the screws and the watch is ready to go.

ALL and I mean ALL the watches have proved waterproof.

My aunt is doing even water-sports (surfing, ski etc) with her Yachtmaster for 2 years and still runing strong.

Only problem is that she lost the bezel insert from being in the water too much time

All my PAM reps are prooved waterproof.

[crystalcranium]

When I receive my watches I screw the back tightly with rubber washing gloves, tight all the screws and the watch is ready to go.

ALL and I mean ALL the watches have proved waterproof.

My aunt is doing even water-sports (surfing, ski etc) with her Yachtmaster for 2 years and still runing strong.

Only problem is that she lost the bezel insert from being in the water too much time

All my PAM reps are prooved waterproof.

So the fact that the glue that holds on the bezel stinks and breaks down quickly doesn't spark suspicions about the long term reliability of the rubber in the o-rings, the mating tolerances with wear of high friction parts like the threads of a case tube and a screw down crown, the quality of the steel and its' resistance to salt corosion at critical points that are potential places for water infiltration ...etc...

As I said before, if you take your reps into battle and come out unscathed, more power to you. It's not a risk I'm willing to take with them. Too many I've owned have withstood dives into pools, ocean swimming, and showers only to fog one summer day when I'm cutting the grass It's more prudent to leave the show pieces high and dry and wear the disposables into extreem conditions.

[V]

The bezel stays on with glue.. I think almost every normal glue being in the water for much time will eventually fail.

I will put now on the new bezel high quality waterproof glue and I am quite sure this will not happen again.

Glue is glue and it is not something that major like Steel and corrosion.

So the fact that the glue that holds on the bezel stinks and breaks down quickly doesn't spark suspicions about the long term reliability of the rubber in the o-rings, the mating tolerances with wear of high friction parts like the threads of a case tube and a screw down crown, the quality of the steel and its' resistance to salt corosion at critical points that are potential places for water infiltration ...etc...

As I said before, if you take your reps into battle and come out unscathed, more power to you. It's not a risk I'm willing to take with them. Too many I've owned have withstood dives into pools, ocean swimming, and showers only to fog one summer day when I'm cutting the grass It's more prudent to leave the show pieces high and dry and wear the disposables into extreem conditions.

[crystalcranium]

The bezel stays on with glue.. I think almost every normal glue being in the water for much time will eventually fail.

I will put now on the new bezel high quality waterproof glue and I am quite sure this will not happen again.

Glue is glue and it is not something that major like Steel and corrosion.

Exactly!!!

Intetesting article about water resistance:

What makes a watch water-resistant?

There are several features that help make a watch water-resistant. The most important is the gaskets, or 0 rings-made of rubber, nylon or Teflon which form watertight seals at the joints where the crystal, case back and crown meet the watch case. if the watch is a chronograph, the chronograph pushers will also have gaskets.

In addition, water-resistant watch cases are lined with a sealant, applied in the form of a quick-hardening liquid, which helps keep water out.

The thickness and material of the case is also a big factor in determining whether a watch can safely be worn underwater. The case must be sturdy enough to withstand pressure without caving in says John Sokol, technical directors at TAG-Heuer USA in general, this means a steel or titanium case or a steel case plated with gold, manufacturers say. Solid gold cases can be water resistant provided they are sufficiently thick.

A screw-in case back, as opposed to one that pushes in, also contributes to a watch's water resistance. A screw-in crown, a feature of many divers' watches, helps prevent water getting into the case through the watch-stem hole. When it is screwed down it forms a water tight seal much like the seal between a jar and its lid.

2. Why aren't watches ever labeled or described in advertising as "waterproof" even if they can be worn deep-sea diving?

According to guidelines issued by the Federal Trade Commission, watch marketers are not allowed to label their watches "water-proof." Even watches designed for deep-sea diving cannot claim to be water-proof.

3. My watch is labeled "water-resistant to 50 meters" but the manufacturer's instructions say I can only wear it swimming, not snorkeling or diving. Why is that?

The different levels of water resistance as expressed in meters are only theoretical. They refer to the depth at which a watch will keep out water if both watch and the water are perfectly motionless, says Scott Chou, technical director at Seiko Corp. of America. These conditions, of course, are never met in the real swimmer's or diver's world. in real life, the movement of the wearer's arm through the water increases the pressure on the watch dramatically; so it can't be worn to the depths indicated by lab testing machines.

4. What are the various levels of water-resistance?

Watches with the lowest level of water resistance are labeled simply "water-resistant." They can withstand splashes of water but should not be submerged. Above that (or below it, literally speaking), the most common designations are

-50 meters (1 meter is about 3.3 feet), which means the watch is suitable for swimming;

-100 meters; indicating it can be worn snorkeling;

-200 meters, suitable for recreational scuba diving and, believe it or not,

-1,000 meters (roughly three-fifths of a mile).

Watches in this last category can endure deep-sea diving. Their gaskets are made of materials that can withstand the helium used in decompression chambers. Some have valves that let the wearer release the helium that has seeped into the watch so the case won't explode as the watch and diver adjust to normal atmospheric conditions, says Peter Purtschert, technical director at Breitling USA.

Keep in mind that the depth specified on the watch dial represents the results of tests done in the lab, not in the ocean (see question 3).

5. I've seen the abbreviation ATM used in labeling degrees of water resistance. What does it mean?

It stands for "atmosphere" and it's equal to 10 meters of water pressure. Another word for "atmosphere" is "bar," which is often used in Europe.

6. Is water resistance permanent?

No. Water resistance depends on several factors (see question 1), some of which can be affected by wear or simply by time. Gaskets can become corroded or misshapen, cases denied or crystals loose or broken. That's why your watch, like your car and your teeth, needs preventive maintenance.

7. How often does water resistance need to be checked?

At least once a year. Most manufacturers say water resistance needs to be tested every time the case back is opened, because opening the case can dislodge the gaskets. This rule applies even to a simple battery change. (Many service centers also change the gaskets whenever a watch comes in for service.) You should take it only to a service center authorized by the manufacturer. Doing otherwise could invalidate your warranty.

8. How is water resistance tested?

There are basically two ways of machine-testing water resistance, referred to as "dry" and "wet" testing. In the former, the watch is subjected to air pressure and measurements taken to see whether the case expands as a result of air leaking into the case. If it does, the watch is not water resistant.

In one type of "wet" testing, the watch is first subjected to air pressure, then submerged in water. If air bubbles come out of the watch when it is underwater, it means air seeped into the watch before it was submerged, and it is therefore not water-resistant. In another type, the watch is placed in a small water-filled chamber which is then subjected to pressure from a piston. If water gets into the watch, it's not water resistant (this is obviously the riskiest form of water-resistance testing).

9. Can I wear my water resistant watch in the hot tub?

No. Exposing your watch to heat, whether it's in a hot tub or sauna can cause the gaskets to lose their shape and their ability to keep out water.

10. What besides extreme temperatures will jeopardize my watch's water-resistance?

Some chemicals can corrode the gaskets and make it vulnerable. Heavily chlorinated water can cause problems, as can spray-on perfumes and hairsprays that work their way into the watch's seams and damage the gaskets. (They can also damage your watch's finish.)

Edited August 7, 2006 by crystalcranium

[cosmosblau]

When I receive my watches I screw the back tightly with rubber washing gloves, tight all the screws and the watch is ready to go.

ALL and I mean ALL the watches have proved waterproof.

I've been swimming in pools and the ocean with my 4th Gen PO and my EXP II Black ETA (both from Trusty) all summer.

No issues.

[dcrooz]

Despite Kostas' efforts for me to tighten the back of my 112 and dunk it in the sink/pool/sea I am resisting the temptation!! Although one day I will try it, maybe next summer!!

[V]

Despite Kostas' efforts for me to tighten the back of my 112 and dunk it in the sink/pool/sea I am resisting the temptation!! Although one day I will try it, maybe next summer!!

I said do it..

[chris5264]

Despite Kostas' efforts for me to tighten the back of my 112 and dunk it in the sink/pool/sea I am resisting the temptation!! Although one day I will try it, maybe next summer!!

I used to take my pams off just because it was raining and put it in my pocket. No more of that for me. Try it,,,,,it is very cool not worring about it any more. In fact, I'm off to the pool today with my daughter and taking along davidsen's mm20.

[Finepics]

Exactly!!!

Intetesting article about water resistance:

What makes a watch water-resistant?

There are several features that help make a watch water-resistant. The most important is the gaskets, or 0 rings-made of rubber, nylon or Teflon which form watertight seals at the joints where the crystal, case back and crown meet the watch case. if the watch is a chronograph, the chronograph pushers will also have gaskets.

In addition, water-resistant watch cases are lined with a sealant, applied in the form of a quick-hardening liquid, which helps keep water out.

The thickness and material of the case is also a big factor in determining whether a watch can safely be worn underwater. The case must be sturdy enough to withstand pressure without caving in says John Sokol, technical directors at TAG-Heuer USA in general, this means a steel or titanium case or a steel case plated with gold, manufacturers say. Solid gold cases can be water resistant provided they are sufficiently thick.

A screw-in case back, as opposed to one that pushes in, also contributes to a watch's water resistance. A screw-in crown, a feature of many divers' watches, helps prevent water getting into the case through the watch-stem hole. When it is screwed down it forms a water tight seal much like the seal between a jar and its lid.

2. Why aren't watches ever labeled or described in advertising as "waterproof" even if they can be worn deep-sea diving?

According to guidelines issued by the Federal Trade Commission, watch marketers are not allowed to label their watches "water-proof." Even watches designed for deep-sea diving cannot claim to be water-proof.

3. My watch is labeled "water-resistant to 50 meters" but the manufacturer's instructions say I can only wear it swimming, not snorkeling or diving. Why is that?

The different levels of water resistance as expressed in meters are only theoretical. They refer to the depth at which a watch will keep out water if both watch and the water are perfectly motionless, says Scott Chou, technical director at Seiko Corp. of America. These conditions, of course, are never met in the real swimmer's or diver's world. in real life, the movement of the wearer's arm through the water increases the pressure on the watch dramatically; so it can't be worn to the depths indicated by lab testing machines.

4. What are the various levels of water-resistance?

Watches with the lowest level of water resistance are labeled simply "water-resistant." They can withstand splashes of water but should not be submerged. Above that (or below it, literally speaking), the most common designations are

-50 meters (1 meter is about 3.3 feet), which means the watch is suitable for swimming;

-100 meters; indicating it can be worn snorkeling;

-200 meters, suitable for recreational scuba diving and, believe it or not,

-1,000 meters (roughly three-fifths of a mile).

Watches in this last category can endure deep-sea diving. Their gaskets are made of materials that can withstand the helium used in decompression chambers. Some have valves that let the wearer release the helium that has seeped into the watch so the case won't explode as the watch and diver adjust to normal atmospheric conditions, says Peter Purtschert, technical director at Breitling USA.

Keep in mind that the depth specified on the watch dial represents the results of tests done in the lab, not in the ocean (see question 3).

5. I've seen the abbreviation ATM used in labeling degrees of water resistance. What does it mean?

It stands for "atmosphere" and it's equal to 10 meters of water pressure. Another word for "atmosphere" is "bar," which is often used in Europe.

6. Is water resistance permanent?

No. Water resistance depends on several factors (see question 1), some of which can be affected by wear or simply by time. Gaskets can become corroded or misshapen, cases denied or crystals loose or broken. That's why your watch, like your car and your teeth, needs preventive maintenance.

7. How often does water resistance need to be checked?

At least once a year. Most manufacturers say water resistance needs to be tested every time the case back is opened, because opening the case can dislodge the gaskets. This rule applies even to a simple battery change. (Many service centers also change the gaskets whenever a watch comes in for service.) You should take it only to a service center authorized by the manufacturer. Doing otherwise could invalidate your warranty.

8. How is water resistance tested?

There are basically two ways of machine-testing water resistance, referred to as "dry" and "wet" testing. In the former, the watch is subjected to air pressure and measurements taken to see whether the case expands as a result of air leaking into the case. If it does, the watch is not water resistant.

In one type of "wet" testing, the watch is first subjected to air pressure, then submerged in water. If air bubbles come out of the watch when it is underwater, it means air seeped into the watch before it was submerged, and it is therefore not water-resistant. In another type, the watch is placed in a small water-filled chamber which is then subjected to pressure from a piston. If water gets into the watch, it's not water resistant (this is obviously the riskiest form of water-resistance testing).

9. Can I wear my water resistant watch in the hot tub?

No. Exposing your watch to heat, whether it's in a hot tub or sauna can cause the gaskets to lose their shape and their ability to keep out water.

10. What besides extreme temperatures will jeopardize my watch's water-resistance?

Some chemicals can corrode the gaskets and make it vulnerable. Heavily chlorinated water can cause problems, as can spray-on perfumes and hairsprays that work their way into the watch's seams and damage the gaskets. (They can also damage your watch's finish.)

Fookin ell!!!!!

Again I have to challenge your assessment. I will not speak for Rolxes or other reps but I again have to say that PAM reps are almost identical to the real thing. The case and case parts are made in exactly the same way as the gens - just milled in CNC machines. All the O rings are commonly available to the watchmaking industry - in fact I would not be suprised if Chinese companies supply some of the parts like O rings etc to the Swiss watch industry.

If I were to drop a rep PAM and a Gen they would likely suffer the same fate after all they have the same movement, the same size dial and other components and the movts are secured into the case in the exact same way. Once they have been tweaked where necessary the only difference between the rep and gen (apart from a couple of cosmetic issues) is a wooden box, papers and about £1850!!! As Kruzer said my biggest concern would be getting the leather straps wet as they are certainly no waterproof (except Metta leather!!).

Just how far down are you intending to take them? best advice for you would be to only wear them on a sunny day if it concerns yoiu that much!!

PS - I think TJGladeRaider's post kinda says it all!!!