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Originally posted on RWI Hello all, I'm sure there have been many before me that have reviewed a TC and BK sub side by side, but for the sake of diversity I've decided to contribute my own personal experience. For starters, I'm not a WIS. I've only been in the rep game for a few months now and my knowledge of Rolexes (gen or rep) is limited so please forgive the lack of technological or historical detail. Secondly, I would like to add a disclaimer than this is only a partial review because both of my subs are Franken and contain gen parts. Thus, the parts that have been replaced on either watch will not be reviewed here. Like many newbies before me one of my first inquiries in to the world of reps was, of course, "who makes the best sub?". It was only a matter of time before I came across the initials "TC" and "BK". After a bit of research I learned that TC and BK were not factories that manufactured replica watches but were "modders"; someone who more or less sources quality reps or rep parts and either combines or mods the various parts to make them into a super-rep of sorts. Then he/she resells that super-rep at a premium. The following review is for a TC 16610LV sub and a BK TW 16610LN sub TC 16610LV Sub Intro: The TC 16610LV (lunette vert) sub is argued by many to be the best 16610 sub on the market currently. I add the word "currently" because it is still available for purchase from TC at the time of this review. Currently however, TC is only selling the "type II" version which lacks a bezel insert (currently priced at $450 w/o insert). My TC LV Specs: TC LV sub Type II TC 2824 movement Gen LV insert Gen crystal TC Combi bracelet Inaccuracies: The TC LV sub is hands-down one of the best out-of-the-box 16610 reps in the market. Whether it is thee best depends on what inaccuracies you feel are acceptable in a rep. The reason I am using the term "inaccuracy" instead of "flaw" or "issue" is because an inaccuracy is a characteristic of the replica that is not similar to the gen part. I would be careful to call these inaccuracies "flaws" however simply because most of the time these inaccuracies are not immediately discernible and often times are not noticed by 99% of people who view it. One of the first inaccuracies I noticed with the TC sub is the shallow bezel teeth. While it is argued that some gen Y-series (Mark I) LV subs also have shallow bezel teeth, the problem that argument poses is the simple fact that the TC LV dial is replicated from a Mark VI (D - Z series) sub. Thus, a Y-series sub (no rehaut engraving and shallow bezel) could not possibly have a Mark VI dial. This inconsistency is an obvious inaccuracy however as I mentioned above 99.99% of people who encounter this watch would probably never catch that. Close-up of bezel teeth on TC LV sub BK TW 16610LN sub Intro: Without question one of the most repeatedly mentioned Rolex super reps is the WM9 16610LN. It is no surprise then that the BK TW sub is based off of the WM9 V1 sub. To the WM9 sub BK adds a swiss-movement, custom date-wheel, and a custom super-lumed dial making this one of the best 16610 replicas in the market. The BK sub is currently the more pricier of the two subs reviewed at $680. The watch is complete and ready to wear straight OOTB unlike the TC sub which currently is only offered without a bezel insert. My BK TW Specs: BK TW sub (WM9 V1 case set) BK custom super-lumed dial Swiss ETA 2836-2 Gen LN insert Gen crown & tube TC Combi bracelet Inaccuracies: One of those most widely mentioned inaccuracies of the BK TW (WM9) case is the thicker side profile. The "shoulders" of the WM9 case seem to be a tad beefier and more pronounced than a gen which makes the overall watch height seem taller. Although this inaccuracy is noticeable in side by side comparison, it becomes less obvious while the watch is being worn. It's a possibility that the beefier lugs are a result of a design sacrifice that had to be made in order to accomodate the lower crown-height of the case. I believe the lower crown-height would not allow the same side profile of a gen without compromising other areas (more on this topic later). BK on left, TC on right Another known inaccuracy of the BK TW sub is the incorrect crown-height of the WM9 case (sorry for lack of a photo comparison). Since the WM9 case has a lower crown-height it cannot accept a gen Rolex movement which many believe to be the true achilles heel of the BK TW sub. Whether or not a majority of those naysayers would ever actually install a gen Rolex 3135 movement inside a rep case is questionable. The lower crown-height of the BK TW sub is not immediately apparent on its own If compared to the crown height of the TC sub below however the difference becomes somewhat more noticeable One last item I would like to mention regarding inaccuracies with the BK TW sub. Before owning a BK sub I studied countless photos of it online and believed that the BK TW sub had a superior bezel to the TC sub. In my opinion, I would rather have a more accurate looking bezel than correct crown-height. I was somewhat disappointed then when my BK TW sub finally arrived and I found that the BK TW sub has a very similar (if not exact same) bezel as the TC sub. I was able to confirm with BK that the WM9 case, like all reps, suffers from manufacturing inconsistencies and unfortunately the current batch of bezels had shallower teeth than previous production runs. Earlier adopters of the BK TW sub most likely have a more gen-like bezel than the one in this review. Close up of my BK TW sub bezel Crown Guard Comparison: BK mods the crown guards of the WM9 case in order to achieve a more gen-like appearance than a factory direct WM9. I believe the result on my BK TW sub is very accurate to gen. On the TC case the crown guards also seem very accurate straight from the factory without further modding. Overall while both crown guards are acceptable, the BK CG's seem just a tad longer than the TC's. Whether this is more or less accurate is debatable since not all gen subs have the same CG shape from series to series. CG comparison BK TW sub TC sub Customer Experience: I'd like to include a section on customer experience because a small portion of the price you pay for a BK or a TC sub includes the experience you get purchasing directly from an individual rather than from a factory. Keep in mind however that my personal experience may be different than others and in no way should this be a permanent indicator of TC or BK's product or reputation. Any issues, flaws, or problems I have encountered with my TC or BK watch that is not a factory design issue will be included here. TC The most frustrating part of purchasing a replica is the inconsistencies that exist from product to product. Although TC is extremely involved with the manufacturing and design of each product he releases he is still subject to the inconsistencies that arise from rep factory workmanship. That being said, the one issue that I have with my TC LV sub is the lumpy and somewhat messy lume application on the TC LV dial. From a 6" distance in broad daylight the inconsistencies in the surface texture of the lume is very apparent. I would say this is the biggest "tell" on my TC LV sub. The reason I did not include this in the "inaccuracy" category above is because this is not a design flaw that is inherent in all samples. There may be TC LV dials from previous batches that are near perfect therefore I can't label this as an inaccuracy. BK I just received my BK sub recently and I was somewhat disappointed to find a few minor cosmetic and mechanical issues with the watch. I won't go into the details of this just yet however since the resolution is still pending. In the meantime the watch is going back to BK for a bit more attention and once it returns I'll be more comfortable completing the review in this section. STAY TUNED. Final Thought: I'm very sorry to say that after spending countless hours in front of a computer wasting away my productive hours at work and my quality-time at home, I still cannot answer the question of "who makes the best sub?". The best answer I can give is "it depends". It depends on what matters more to you; is it mostly superficial superiority that matters to you? The idea that most people who see the watch will assume it's a gen just based on it's sheer quality? Or is it all about engineering accuracy? The thought of being able to place a genuine Rolex movement in the case? If it's the former then possibly a BK will suit you with it's custom super-lumed dial which is less likely to have sloppy lume application. If its the latter then definitely a TC is your choice with it's ability to accept a genuine Rolex 3135 movement. It also depends on whether price is an issue for you, when you bought the watch, and whether you plan on keeping it stock or frankening it. At the end of the day however, one thing is for sure. You really can't go wrong with either of these two watches. I have had nothing but excellent experiences with both TC and BK purchasing multiple items from both. If however at the end of all your research you still are confused about which is the most gen-like submariner to buy. Do yourself a favor, head to the Panerai section and never turn back! - RO

Hey now, if it was "Joe" or "Sam" that would be one thing. "Zeleni Fricken Kukuruz"?? Nobody has a bladder that big.

Does another members post count reflect how we treat them? I've been a member for a while now but tbh still consider myself a noob in lots of ways, I've spoken to and dealt with lots of members, from the guy who just joined to others who have been around reps most of their adult life and have an enviable knowledge of the minutia of each model in the reps they choose to collect. When I first joined I had been lurking (like most of us do) for a good few weeks trying to read up and find out about the models I was interested in buying, in fact the first thing I looked for were the tells on an Omega Smp to stop me buying a rep online, So glad I found this place I choose to join up here first as I'd had a look at another site and decided that I felt more comfortable here than I would have there, simple. One of the things I liked here was the way the membership interacted with each other and especially with noobs such as me, they had a laugh and obviously knew their shit about reps, for me posting on any given thread was a very daunting experience especially when I knew sod all about it, but it's gotten easier with time and knowledge learnt ! On other boards I've seen noobs really taken to task over stupid things they have said never to be seen posting on the board again. There will always be the weekly 'who makes the best Sub' threads but the forum will only thrive if we can attract a more involved membership. My question is this, when you speak/post or contact another member on the forum do you base an opinion on them by how many posts they have made and/or join date, or do you first give them the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise? Tread your own path.....................

Shortly after midnight Sunday (early Monday morning) & wearing 1 of my Newmans while cleaning tubes/valves

Still the 029 for me. Love this watch, it stands to get a lot of action.

Quite funny, as I've just recently thought about the car manufacturer - watch brand analogy in order to explain watches to someone not too much into watches. Here's what I came up with. Rolex - Mercedes (I guess that's something we all can easily agree on) Omega - BMW Breitling - Opel Zenith, IWC - Audi JLC - Porsche AP - Ferrari (too many classy watches for Lamborghini imo) VC - Bentley (think Continental GT) Patek - Rolls Royce Lange - Maybach I think that's pretty accurate, Breitling maybe a little bit too harsh...

Same as the last couple of years. TT closer to the edge!! I don't need eyes for this one, I think I know every blade of grass on the 'mountain circuit!!' Even if you don't like bikes, or not a great fan of them, I think you would still love this movie, it's in 3D too. Follows a few of the riders, but mainly Guy Martin, a complete loony choone from Lincolnshire in England and a buddy of mine! There is even watch content in this as Graham do the timing for the TT and every winner gets a special edition TT watch! S

I am left handed and wear watches on my left too. I feel I am more controlled in how I move my hand/ wrist as its the dominant hand.

im wear my watch on my right wrist as to wanking thats how i wind it

Fresh from the postie today......

Red triangle, elephant cow. <br /><br />I'm sorry, I thought we were posting things that made no sense. My mistake.

please enclose model with my Tshirt!! Seriously guys, Everyone who uses this forum should be at least a VIP member. We cannot expect to enjoy the advantages of the forum and all the information that has saved every one of us untold amounts of money, for free. Even if it is just giving you correct information about new watches and dealers and keeping you off the scam sites that take your money and give you nothing in return!!

I had breakfast with ma brutha Lani this morning and we talked about the waves, he said here they measure the back side of the waves, not the front. So a "25 foot" wave will have a face of 50' or more. That's what I was watching, behemoth monsters crashing into the rocks, and humpback whales breaching offshore a mile or so. It was awe inspiring.