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I wouldn't pay $10k for this either, I would put that towards a JLC Vintage Deep Sea Chronograph that has the same "vintage" color palette but with a much more admirable movement. I do however really like the combination orange'd lume and DLC case!

Thanks for the info Klocklind. I got my info from the BK sales thread below, although he does say it's "basically" the same case set as the WM9 v1 and not "exactly" the same case set so maybe I misread that. http://www.rwgforum.net/index.php?/topic/139866-Product%20Offering%3A%20TW%2016610%20sub

Will this SD accept all gen parts? I'm specifically looking for it to accept gen insert and crystal. Thanks in advance and great looking watch.

Originally posted on RWI Hello all, I'm sure there have been many before me that have reviewed a TC and BK sub side by side, but for the sake of diversity I've decided to contribute my own personal experience. For starters, I'm not a WIS. I've only been in the rep game for a few months now and my knowledge of Rolexes (gen or rep) is limited so please forgive the lack of technological or historical detail. Secondly, I would like to add a disclaimer than this is only a partial review because both of my subs are Franken and contain gen parts. Thus, the parts that have been replaced on either watch will not be reviewed here. Like many newbies before me one of my first inquiries in to the world of reps was, of course, "who makes the best sub?". It was only a matter of time before I came across the initials "TC" and "BK". After a bit of research I learned that TC and BK were not factories that manufactured replica watches but were "modders"; someone who more or less sources quality reps or rep parts and either combines or mods the various parts to make them into a super-rep of sorts. Then he/she resells that super-rep at a premium. The following review is for a TC 16610LV sub and a BK TW 16610LN sub TC 16610LV Sub Intro: The TC 16610LV (lunette vert) sub is argued by many to be the best 16610 sub on the market currently. I add the word "currently" because it is still available for purchase from TC at the time of this review. Currently however, TC is only selling the "type II" version which lacks a bezel insert (currently priced at $450 w/o insert). My TC LV Specs: TC LV sub Type II TC 2824 movement Gen LV insert Gen crystal TC Combi bracelet Inaccuracies: The TC LV sub is hands-down one of the best out-of-the-box 16610 reps in the market. Whether it is thee best depends on what inaccuracies you feel are acceptable in a rep. The reason I am using the term "inaccuracy" instead of "flaw" or "issue" is because an inaccuracy is a characteristic of the replica that is not similar to the gen part. I would be careful to call these inaccuracies "flaws" however simply because most of the time these inaccuracies are not immediately discernible and often times are not noticed by 99% of people who view it. One of the first inaccuracies I noticed with the TC sub is the shallow bezel teeth. While it is argued that some gen Y-series (Mark I) LV subs also have shallow bezel teeth, the problem that argument poses is the simple fact that the TC LV dial is replicated from a Mark VI (D - Z series) sub. Thus, a Y-series sub (no rehaut engraving and shallow bezel) could not possibly have a Mark VI dial. This inconsistency is an obvious inaccuracy however as I mentioned above 99.99% of people who encounter this watch would probably never catch that. Close-up of bezel teeth on TC LV sub BK TW 16610LN sub Intro: Without question one of the most repeatedly mentioned Rolex super reps is the WM9 16610LN. It is no surprise then that the BK TW sub is based off of the WM9 V1 sub. To the WM9 sub BK adds a swiss-movement, custom date-wheel, and a custom super-lumed dial making this one of the best 16610 replicas in the market. The BK sub is currently the more pricier of the two subs reviewed at $680. The watch is complete and ready to wear straight OOTB unlike the TC sub which currently is only offered without a bezel insert. My BK TW Specs: BK TW sub (WM9 V1 case set) BK custom super-lumed dial Swiss ETA 2836-2 Gen LN insert Gen crown & tube TC Combi bracelet Inaccuracies: One of those most widely mentioned inaccuracies of the BK TW (WM9) case is the thicker side profile. The "shoulders" of the WM9 case seem to be a tad beefier and more pronounced than a gen which makes the overall watch height seem taller. Although this inaccuracy is noticeable in side by side comparison, it becomes less obvious while the watch is being worn. It's a possibility that the beefier lugs are a result of a design sacrifice that had to be made in order to accomodate the lower crown-height of the case. I believe the lower crown-height would not allow the same side profile of a gen without compromising other areas (more on this topic later). BK on left, TC on right Another known inaccuracy of the BK TW sub is the incorrect crown-height of the WM9 case (sorry for lack of a photo comparison). Since the WM9 case has a lower crown-height it cannot accept a gen Rolex movement which many believe to be the true achilles heel of the BK TW sub. Whether or not a majority of those naysayers would ever actually install a gen Rolex 3135 movement inside a rep case is questionable. The lower crown-height of the BK TW sub is not immediately apparent on its own If compared to the crown height of the TC sub below however the difference becomes somewhat more noticeable One last item I would like to mention regarding inaccuracies with the BK TW sub. Before owning a BK sub I studied countless photos of it online and believed that the BK TW sub had a superior bezel to the TC sub. In my opinion, I would rather have a more accurate looking bezel than correct crown-height. I was somewhat disappointed then when my BK TW sub finally arrived and I found that the BK TW sub has a very similar (if not exact same) bezel as the TC sub. I was able to confirm with BK that the WM9 case, like all reps, suffers from manufacturing inconsistencies and unfortunately the current batch of bezels had shallower teeth than previous production runs. Earlier adopters of the BK TW sub most likely have a more gen-like bezel than the one in this review. Close up of my BK TW sub bezel Crown Guard Comparison: BK mods the crown guards of the WM9 case in order to achieve a more gen-like appearance than a factory direct WM9. I believe the result on my BK TW sub is very accurate to gen. On the TC case the crown guards also seem very accurate straight from the factory without further modding. Overall while both crown guards are acceptable, the BK CG's seem just a tad longer than the TC's. Whether this is more or less accurate is debatable since not all gen subs have the same CG shape from series to series. CG comparison BK TW sub TC sub Customer Experience: I'd like to include a section on customer experience because a small portion of the price you pay for a BK or a TC sub includes the experience you get purchasing directly from an individual rather than from a factory. Keep in mind however that my personal experience may be different than others and in no way should this be a permanent indicator of TC or BK's product or reputation. Any issues, flaws, or problems I have encountered with my TC or BK watch that is not a factory design issue will be included here. TC The most frustrating part of purchasing a replica is the inconsistencies that exist from product to product. Although TC is extremely involved with the manufacturing and design of each product he releases he is still subject to the inconsistencies that arise from rep factory workmanship. That being said, the one issue that I have with my TC LV sub is the lumpy and somewhat messy lume application on the TC LV dial. From a 6" distance in broad daylight the inconsistencies in the surface texture of the lume is very apparent. I would say this is the biggest "tell" on my TC LV sub. The reason I did not include this in the "inaccuracy" category above is because this is not a design flaw that is inherent in all samples. There may be TC LV dials from previous batches that are near perfect therefore I can't label this as an inaccuracy. BK I just received my BK sub recently and I was somewhat disappointed to find a few minor cosmetic and mechanical issues with the watch. I won't go into the details of this just yet however since the resolution is still pending. In the meantime the watch is going back to BK for a bit more attention and once it returns I'll be more comfortable completing the review in this section. STAY TUNED. Final Thought: I'm very sorry to say that after spending countless hours in front of a computer wasting away my productive hours at work and my quality-time at home, I still cannot answer the question of "who makes the best sub?". The best answer I can give is "it depends". It depends on what matters more to you; is it mostly superficial superiority that matters to you? The idea that most people who see the watch will assume it's a gen just based on it's sheer quality? Or is it all about engineering accuracy? The thought of being able to place a genuine Rolex movement in the case? If it's the former then possibly a BK will suit you with it's custom super-lumed dial which is less likely to have sloppy lume application. If its the latter then definitely a TC is your choice with it's ability to accept a genuine Rolex 3135 movement. It also depends on whether price is an issue for you, when you bought the watch, and whether you plan on keeping it stock or frankening it. At the end of the day however, one thing is for sure. You really can't go wrong with either of these two watches. I have had nothing but excellent experiences with both TC and BK purchasing multiple items from both. If however at the end of all your research you still are confused about which is the most gen-like submariner to buy. Do yourself a favor, head to the Panerai section and never turn back! - RO

I haven't seen both in person so I can't say for sure. However from photos the cartel version doesn't have a very clean cut crown guard whereas the KW version looks phenomenal. Also the dial on the KW is slightly "imprinted" which is correct, not too sure if the cartel dial is like that. BTW, does anyone know how to contact Kuvarsit? I have tried emailing but the mailbox has been full for over a week and have not gotten response via the site contact form either.

IMO the misaligned text on the ring lock isn't the worst issue. The lettering in "perpetual" looks very off.

Hello all, I was searching through some old threads on a sister site and found a photo of a "KW" boutiques special PAM (411+ series). Naturally I visited Kuvarsit's site and could not find that model. I tried emailing him but it appears his mailbox is full. Which leaves me with two questions: 1. Is the KW boutiques special model no longer available? 2. Does anyone have any experience with the "KW" PAM models? How is accuracy, quality, etc? It seems they are a few "KW" edition models. I did a search and could not find the answers to those questions. A sister site says that the KW boutiques special model is "pending" evaluation as a super rep but has not been updated. Thanks in advance.

Sorry to resurrect an old thread. This Mark VI LV is absolutely flawless. It has the correct "3 tick" swiss made marking on the dial and pointed "40" on the bezel for this series. Bravo!