crystalcranium

What I was asking for is some sober, calm perspective based reflection on the entire picture here. Dispite your prosecutorial ire and bombast, this is not an either or. Got some news for you dude....all advertising involves subtrifuge in one shade or another. It isn't as simple as "They lied...they're out". That's not how this board operates and survives as a highly respected haven for replica buyers.

To me, the bottom line here is where are we going to draw the line of acceptance. Despite 6 pages of primarily angry rants about the injustice of this all, the fact remain that the big 4 still offer a reliable, safe, inexpensive way on the whole, to purchase a wide variety of replica watches. The accusations are serious, but they are still a far better choice than the majority of sites of dubious quality, pricing and security. For a newcomer to the replica world, can we in all seriousness say "Welcome to our community. You are safe from being ripped off by the $900 Submariner sites" and when they do a back flip over Joshua's $188 ETA Sub tell them "Well, you don't want to buy from that guy either...we have ethical problems with him"????? I'm not saying we shouldn't,....just asking what is our stand based in here??? Is it purely ethical, that we will not tolerate lies and a specific level of shady business, or that these guys are really ripping off customers? I believe, when you honestly look at the continium of replica dealers on the whole, the big 4 still lie well within the desireable part of the curve. Do we really do our preamble of protection and care of the replica buyer the best service by branding these guys as bad actors??? I think we need to nip their widening circle of liberties with the truth in advertising in the bud, but I don't think off with their heads is the best answer. I still think a fraud forum would be the best way to keep everyone as honest as possible. And doesn't Edge's contention that these guys are still minor players in world wide picture of the replica game, dependant on us, have a flip side? Despite the ethical problems, aren't they still a rare relative safe haven for rep buyers? Should we lump them in with the rest???? Does it have to be one or the other??? Can we advise in another way????

I don't know of any asian for swiss swaps with this movement but it would be foolish. There are so many physical differences between the two movements visibly obvious to the naked eye that anyone even marginally informed about the two movements could spot the difference.

Actually....he is now uncomfortable with the post.

I have purhased woodworking equipment for years from importers like Grizzly Machinery and manufacturers like Delta and Powermatic who import and produce in China and Taiwan and they report year in and year out that a corporate QC presence from the home office in the US is an absolutely necessary presence to insure production quality. The Asian producers believe quality control is the responsibility of the buyer, their responsibility is to cut every corner they can get away with to squeeze every buck out of every manufacturing minute. These western companies have long since stopped trying to change things and now simply accept the fact that a poised hammer cocked and ready to fall when someone steps out of line is the only way to insure adequete QC

I've bought perhaps 12 watches from the dealers in question and have not had a single bad experience. So why am I landing my voice to this discussion with concern and condemnation over the charges and accusations? Because there is a greater community good and responsibility we should bear contributing to this forum. Many of the most critical voices have expressed both business respect and friendship for Josh et al. This is not the issue. The facts before us are serious. I'm sorry to say I hear "I'm covering my ass with my dealer" in your posts.

I suspect the strategy is much the same as in the previous thread, on the part of the accused....stay low and wait till it blows over.

jomamas response seems reactive like I'm saying "You're an idiot for buying this watch". Just the opposite, I think the seller is reprehensible for misrepresenting it.

Actually, I was asking jomama who was calmly advising us all to take a chill pill, count our blessings, get some perspective for what we have to be thankful for....that he had been DUPED!!!!! This ETA 2892 bullbleep in the Aqua Tera is one of the most egregious scams out there right now.

And you realize the movement in it is not an ETA 2892 as was advertised correct??? This is the freekin crap were talking about here. Naieve, happy, serene ...and duped!

Great. In the spirit of the other thread on truth in advertising, I feel it is my duty to inform you that the so called "Lemania" movement in your PP5070 is not a Lemania movement but an Asian chronograph movement based on the Venus 175. This movement is reviewed in Ziggy's section. Have a nice day!!!

It certainly would be interesting to see who showed up and answered what. On the topic of "Off with their heads", I still think part of our responsibility is to keep the buying body informed as well as making sure we don't sponsor business for dealers we consider to be of questionable ethics by alllowing posts and dealer links. I just went to a dealer site, one being discussed here, and I can report there are still too many to count games being played with the truth. I know a year ago, I would be singing about the unbelieveable deal I got on a Swiss ETA 2892 Aqua-Tera from so and so. The potential for that kind of scam is blatently still real.

I think a subforum that soberly and respectfully airs issues of misrepresentation, or lack of adequete information, in advertisement would be a drastic measure. Simply banning wipes the slate and ignores the problem. Accurate information is the only antidote for misinformation. Let's say Dealer A posts pics of a new watch advertising a desired movement for a good price but posts no pictures of the movement. A thread would be started stating "Dealer A claims an ETA XXXX for $$$$...No pics of movement" and the discussion and pressure for an honest representation would begin. Such a forum would have to be carefully monitored by the mods because of the potential power, and misuse of such a forum.

Agreed but apparently we've been infiltrated and housecleaning steps are in order.

Would there be some utility in opening a "Potential dealer scam" forum similar to the Auction Scam forum???? Could listings and claims be called into question and discussed in a satisfying way??? Wouldnt that be a hot spot for newcomers to visit so they don't get taken by the little white lies???

Wow...Newbie balls. Thanks for sharing that with us. Sorry Josh, but that email is disgusting.

So what are we to do????? I'm not challenging your contention something should be done.....just asking what can be done? I'm ready to carry a sign and picket!

Let me propose a hypothetical. If collusion among a small number of dealers didn't give the small guys a snowball's chance in hell but it did give us great watches, very affordable, and if the dealers in question would clean up their advertising claims ethics, would we give a damn about the little guy. Would we be having an altruistic discussion about fair business practices if the Cartel was giving us what we want? What if the price fixing was in our favor?????

Are they doing this as individuals or as a group pooling resourses and contacts??? If it's individually, then..what issue can we have with it. This is the business. Big fish get the opportunities, little fish get eaten. Even operating as a group, it's hard to make a judgement about their practices and motivations in an illegal trade. Maybe in the end the product will be better and more available if controlled by a group. When I buy a watch from a Swatch company or one of the other Swiss cartels, I dont loose sleep over RGM struggling in Lancaster PA.

How are they monopolizing the trade? Don't monopolies usually squash the smaller guys by sacrificing profit to underprice the little businessman? Can you give us some specifics on what is going on? Does it go deeper than the big guys hogging visibility on the various boards?

I think ongoing diligence about the misrepresentations is a good thing but I agree with some of the recent posts that much of this, movement issues, lume AR etc, was covered passionately in the LWL thread. What about customer complaints and the issue of collusion to inflate prices????? Are these still issues that warrant discussion?

I agree, the cartel conspiracy price fixing charge, that seemed to be the more serious sinister accusation, has fallen by the wayside. Is this still a valid point or did Andrew deflate the accusation by saying there is no cartel?

I've gained some information and wisdom from this thread. Andrew's description of the bottomless pit of thousands of variations of movements, bracelets, straps, cases,...the pressures and edicts from a mythical Maker (notice the capital M. It's a little scary) and his inference that the seedier side of this business is scary and filled with more pressures that just deadlines and deals, has made me more wary than ever about what I'm risking buying one of these things. There's no telling what you're going to get. Dealer reputation and trust is more important than ever. This thread is a necessary flushing out of the facts and risks involved on both sides of the business. We need honest, trustworthy dealers more than ever.

Doesn't change the situation but it sure changes the tenor of the interrogation. Oh yeah, you're playing bad cop...

Talk about profane!!!!