freddy333

(I originally posted this in the Rolex forum, but I think it may be more relevant here.)

1. What are the options for fixing a v72 movement into a DW case?

Before I spend the time to fabricate a clip shaped like a right-angled "Z" (the angled line would be vertical), I wanted to see if there is a better method. While my approach should work, I have a feeling there is probably a much more elegant (and effective) watchmaker's solution. Ziggy??

2. What is involved in removing the original chrono bridge

and replacing it with this

(Note - Rolex originally fitted either the 2-line or 5-line bridge to 6239s & 6241s, so either version is correct)

Is removal of the existing bridge a simple matter of removing the set screw, lifting off the bridge, swapping the jewels over to the new bridge & screwing the new bridge back in? Or are there springs to contend with or an adjustment that needs to be made upon re-installation of the new bridge? It seems like this should be a simple 5 minute r&r job, but, as we all know, when it comes to watches, the seemingly simple is often not so simple and I have learned that it is always better to ask before doing something like this for the first time.

I assume I can press out the two jewels in the current bridge with a concave staking bit and then reinstall and oil them. But what oil should I use on the jewels?

2 questions for Ziggy or anyone else who successfully completed a DW Daytona

1. What did you use to fix the movement into the case?

Before I spend the time to fabricate something that I think will work to fix the movement in the case (a clip shaped like a right-angled "Z" (the angled line would be vertical)), I wanted to see if someone else has come up with something better. While it should work, I have a feeling there is probably a much more elegant (and effective) watchmaker's solution. Ziggy??

2. What is involved in removing the original chrono bridge

and replacing it with this

(Note - Rolex originally fitted either the 2-line or 5-line bridge to 6239s & 6241s, so either version is correct)

Is removal of the existing bridge a simple matter of removing the set screw, lifting off the bridge, swapping the jewels over to the new bridge & screwing the new bridge back in? Or are there springs or something below the bridge that are hiding? And does the new part just screw back in, or is there some type of adjustment that needs to be made? It seems like it may be a quick & simple r&r job, but, as we all know, it is always better to ask before doing something like this for the first time.

I assume I will have to press out the two jewels with a concave staking bit and then reinstall and oil them. But what oil should I use on the jewels?

Avitt -- How 'tight' were your cases, and how long did it take you to file them down to fit the movement?

No idea what is going on with DW? But he is definitely listening to my complaints (I only told him about the pushers & hands not fitting......I did not tell him about the case) and willing to fix things. He also seemed very surprised (and impressed) to hear that I had fit gen parts to his case (I got the clear impression that he had never considered doing this before). His personal Daytona 6239 is composed of all of the parts he sent me (except for the dial, I got the non-Oyster dial) -- black 'Oyster' dial (which denotes an Oyster case with screw type pushers, but the 6239 is not an 'Oyster'), non-screw 'pump' pushers, mediocre quality 7mm Triplock crown/tube (should be 6mm Twinlock), black plastic bezel (should be metal) & his OEM generic crystal. And his minute hand barely makes it past the black portion of the dial (I think the hand is too short). So, excepting the v72 movement & asymmetrical pusher arrangement, the man who is selling us the key components for many of our horological works of art is obliviously walking around wearing a watch that looks less like a gen than the 6239s that most of our collectors have. Hard to believe, but true.

Glad you posted that picture. I forgot to take one before I started, and for some reason I never even thought of trying the movement in the other 6239 case. Stupid me!

I just tried it now and the first case must have been defective or cut poorly. The movement almost fits into the other case and I can tell it would only need the minor hand-sanding that I assumed would be required at the beginning.

To give you a better idea what I saw on my case, I modified part of your picture to illustrate the areas I had the most trouble with

The area circled in red was the same on my case and had to be removed (I would need to do this with both of my cases in order to fit the movement) and areas circled in blue were similar to that 'hump' in the red circle except that the hump was much wider and sloped slowly upwards towards the front opening of the case. These were the areas that I described as looking like they were filling the inner angle of an "L" shape, with the bottom of the L being the front lip that touched the dial and the side of the L being the inside wall of the case. It was almost like a weld sitting along a joint, if that makes more sense.

Anyway, whatever it was, it is now gone and the movement fits perfectly -- snug enough so that there is no lateral free play between the movement and case walls, but loose enough so the movement slides in smoothly.

The plan for today is to polish the inside of the case, cut the new v72 stem to size and re-fit the new (NOS) Twinlock crown (the Twinlock is currently fit to a new v72 stem, but I need to size/cut the stem to fit the case), and cut & fit the Ofrei pushers (which DW is now considering using also).

UPDATE: I have smoothed/polished the inside of the case and removed virtually all of the burring around the dial opening that resulted from the dremeling & sized/fit both the stem/crown and pushers. I was going to stop there for the day since I cannot complete the work without Phong's hands anyway, but I got the stem/crown & pushers done in less than an hour (and part of that time was spent making tea), so I decided to push on and work out a solution for holding the movement in place within the case.

Here are a couple of quick-and-dirty (literally) teasers to give you an idea of what is to come

Pitimany -- Thank you for the picture and machine shop offer (yes, I am currently in the US). However, I have an update regarding my case dremeling caper -- After nearly 8 hours of grinding, test fitting, more grinding, more test fitting, more grinding, more test fitting....I finally got the movement into the case. And, amazingly (considering that this case was clearly not designed for a v72 movement), not only is the dial properly centered in the case (during my test-fittings, it looked like it might end up off-center), but I was stunned to find that the stem hole in the movement was perfectly aligned with the stem hole in the case.

Unfortunately, what you cannot see in this picture (at least I do not think you can see it from the front) is the rough & uneven mating surface around the case's front opening where it presses against the dial. But if you look closely around the edge of the dial, you might be able to see some of the burring that occurred when the dremel's grinding tool touched the opening lip of the case while I was grinding out the sides. I should be able to remove the burring with sandpaper, but there will be a couple of small gaps between the dial and the case that will remain. These you can see if you look at the dial from a slight angle. I am not sure what to do about them, but I will definitely have to figure something out because I can already tell that this watch will be quite a head-turner.

All in all, and even without proper hands & hardware, I am pretty impressed with the way it looks (since all of its sins are hidden away behind the dial & inside the case). I received my broaches from Cas-Ker today, but the hand holder is back ordered, so broaching the DW hands will be delayed a bit more. On the other hand, Phong's (as it turns out, his name is not Jensen) set of hands are in transit and should be here in a day or two. Hopefully, his v72 hands will actually be made to fit v72 pinions, so I will be able to finish the project the day they arrive. As it is, the hands are the last major hurdle (unless a minor miracle occurs & Phong's hands actually fit the way they are supposed to right out of the box). All that remains is tidying up loose ends (that I have done numerous times before, so there will be no problems) and polishing the mess I made inside of the case.

Anyway, for those of you who have been following this strange saga, here is a preview of a brand new Newman just days before its birth & a hint of what's to come (I had to fit the Fly's second hand onto the movement so I could tell if the movement stopped while I was diddling it into the case)

You are very welcome, and, yes, a deep money pit. But if you have to live in the poor house, at least you will look like a million bucks (wearing your Daytona) & have something fun to keep you occupied while you are there. And the watchsmithing skills you pick up along the way place you in a very unique & exclusive fraternity.

Anyone with a serious interest in the Daytona and pre-Daytona models should read this book, and no modder should even consider picking up his dremel without picking up a copy (and committing it to memory) first.

You might check with DW to see if he has a 6238 case. If not, use the 6239. After some 'years of wear' the '9' on the case could very well end up being mistaken for an '8', if you know what I mean.

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UPDATE: I am beginning to wonder if the movement will actually fit into DW's case. After spending about 4 hours dremeling (removing) the elevated grooves that ran around the inside circumference of the case (it is impossible to fit the movement into the case without removing these), I now see that the inside of the case is not exactly round. There are slightly elevated sections in a few areas that bank up to the f-l-a-n-g-e (the inside front face of the dial) where the face of the dial rests on the inside of the case. These elevations are in the joint where the side wall and front face of the case meet. If you picture an "L" and then fill the inside angle of the L with metal so the right-angle is considerably rounded, that is about what it looks like. The problem is that the elevated areas need to be removed before the dial will be able to rest flatly against the front of the case, and I am unable to remove enough of the metal without damaging the front face of the case. As it is, I have already worn down a bit of the inside diameter of the opening (the part that rests against the dial), so I will need to figure out something for that. But the main problem is the case itself. I do not see how Avitt and others have been able to properly fit a movement into one of these cases, unless, like the crystal and pushers, the dimensions vary between cases or have been changed.

If anyone who has been here before has any input, I am all ears.

Alli -- I had actually intended to do a proper parts collection & construction tutorial, but there have been so many unexpected problems and parts issues that the plan got sort of side-tracked in favor of just getting the watch built. But I will try to do the tutorial for the next one (6241).

I agree that S & U is often a good reference. But an even better one for (pre-1652xx) Daytonas is Rolex Daytona - A Legend is Born, which discusses every aspect of the Daytonas, often in minute detail and with a beautiful collection of photographs. This book, along with gigs worth of archived photos on my hard drive, is my guide. The authors discuss the 3 bezel variations for the 6239 here (sorry about the image quality)

If interested, I would buy this book immediately (it is currently for sale at $128 and worth every cent). However, for some reason the seller has placed more than 100 auctions (and those are only the ones I know about) for the same book (and same printing) over the past several months, each with a different price varying from a low of about $90 to as high as $188 (someone told me they saw one of his auctions listing the book at over $200, but I cannot confirm that).

Avitt -- I think the Pre-Daytonas use the same parts (case, pushers, etc.) as the 6239 that I am working on. Did you try DW's pushers on your Pre-Daytona before using the Ofreis?

I spent 30 minutes last night trying to widen the rear opening of the case with coarse emory paper and it helped, but not enough. Not sure I can maintain a smooth, round surface with a hand file. So I think I am going to try grinding the case with my Dremel and this

This little bit made short work of that pin on the v72's pillar plate yesterday. I think I will be able to achieve a more even result with the dremel than with a hand file.

Thanks (as always), Avitt. I think I may try some emory paper before I bring in the big guns (the files). The overhang is really very slight and a good, coarse sanding may just do the trick.

You might be interested in this photo I just took for DW that illustrates why his pushers do not fit tightly into his cases

The micrometer is measuring the diameter of the screw portion of the pusher (at left) and the hole gauge is measuring one of the pusher holes in DW's 6239 case (at right). (The hole gauge is actually a bit loose in the hole, but the next size down was too small.) As you can see, the hole in the case is slightly larger than the diameter of the pusher, which is why it fails to tighten down into the case.

Tough question. I happen to like that particular model, so I would probably restore it back to its original glory. If you are unsure, think about what you would do with either watch. If you want a diving/sport watch, build the Sub. If you want an all-around watch or want one that will tend to stick out more in a crowd, stick with the Oyster Perpetual (I see far more people wearing Subs on the street than OPs). But your mileage may vary.

Zig -- Thanks for the hand sizes. That helps alot. But it looks like that broaching set will only cover the chrono hands and, unfortunately, I will need to broach ALL of the hands DW sent. Not one of them fit on the v72 pinions. Not a single one. I may have to order 2 broaching sets.

But from the sounds of it, based on your and Euno's experience, I guess I did get lucky in the crystal department.

On a more negative note, after removing that pin, the movement still does not quite fit into the case. It is just a hair too large. Did you have to file the inside of any of the DW cases to get the movement in?

*Gasp* You did it? Poor Flytimer! I hope you resurrect it one day

I did the same with a super gorgeous 41mm diameter Zodiac Sea-Chron. Broke my heart, but brought it back to life. I sold it very recently to a friend and fellow V72 chrono collector. It was a good move on my part because he wears it quite often.

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The first genuine Newman I ever saw in person (as well as handled) was a black-dialed TT 6241 that had a Rolex black lizard strap with gold Rolex buckle. Wow. This was back in the early-mid 90s.

It was more like a <gulp> when I ripped out the Fly's 'guts'. And to tell you the truth, I am still smarting over it. Although it was not a beater, it had become my favorite (wearable) watch. There is just something about that Flytimer......not sure what, but something. Anyway, it will fly again once I get these 2 Newmans done.

You have good taste and a good eye. I know that Zodiac and I can see why it would break your heart to part it out for another watch. But I do not know how you ever brought yourself to give it up, even to a worthy friend. Once I get the Fly running again, it will definitely remain in my permanent collection.

I think I saw my first Newman on a lizard strap at a NYC auction in the early 80s (when I started collecting). There was something about that tool watch fitted with this very formal lizard strap that just clicked with me and I have wanted one ever since. The Venus/Lemania Newman has been a good placeholder until I can get the v72 project done. Hopefully soon.

Euno -- Actually, it was some of your comments about the 6241 & lizard strap that helped to convince me to keep that combination together. Of course, now I have to find another 2 v72s -- 1 for the 6241 & the other for the poor Flytimer

(It looks cooler every time I see it)

Yes, I think either DW fixed the bezels (or reduced the diameter of the bezel portion of the case) or maybe I just got lucky.

As for straps & dials........well, funny you should ask.....

The plan is to move the lizard strap with the Rolex buckle over to the DW 6241 (case is en route and should arrive in a few days) and kit the 6239 that I am currently working on (the one in the photos above) with a folded 7835 (also en route).

Based on the pseudo survey I ran last week, this is how things shook out.......

The 6241 will get the black dial and look like the watch on the right, but with a re-aligned mirror marker at 6 (and hopefully with hands)

(You can see the paint smearing around the 115 mark on the tachymeter and overall shoddy appearance of the bezel (on left) as it was received from DW. If you compare this to the photo (above) of the bezel with the T21, you will see how well it cleaned up with a bit of polish and elbow grease. Like Avitt said, it truly is a diamond in the rough.)

Completed, it should look similar to this (but with red chrono seconds markers around the circumference of the dial instead of the black ones on this dial)

And the 6239 will look like the watch on the left (white dial en route with 6241 case)

Thoughts?

The bezel will not fit over the T-21. Gently file away the underside inner edge of your bezel(s).

Euno -- Thank you for the tip. I am a bit confused though, because I had no trouble fitting the 6239 bezel over the gen T21

In fact, I was surprised at how easily the bezel fit over the crystal. So I was planning to apply some G-C Hypo to the bottom of the crystal to help seal out moisture & dust (I would never swim or wear this watch in the water).

Or, do you mean after the crystal is fit onto the case? I will give that a try and report back in a few...

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UPDATE: Here is a picture of the bezel/T21 installed half-way on the 6239 case (I did not want to press it down all the way to avoid putting undo stress on the crystal until the rest of the work is completed)

I pressed the bezel on entirely by hand (with moderate pressure).

As a side note -- I agree with Avitt that these '200 UNITS' bezels arrive looking quite shoddy, but they polish up real nice (I just used some mag & aluminum wheel polish and a terry cloth towel).

I think I am going to have alot of trouble keeping this watch in a drawer.....

Ziggy -- Do you know if a broach set ranging from .05mm to .55mm should cover all the hands on the v72 (hour, minute, chrono secs & subdials)? A few months ago, I took a chance and bought a nice Bergeon broaching set, but none of the broaches fit any of the hands I needed it for (too large). So I could use your guidance before I buy another one.

I expect that I will be bending and making clamps for this watch too. The only other 'gotcha' I can foresee is getting the pusher stems cut to the right length. Of the 6 pair I did previously, only 2 were wrong. But I learned from that experience to plan ahead, so I ordered a few extra just in case.

Other than that, once I get the hands broached and fitted and file off that pin on the side of the plate, I think the rest will fall into place since the crown/tube are already installed (easy) and I have test fit the T21 crystal without any problems.

In the case of the V72, forget the hands, the DW hands are no where near anything you can use on a V72...you need genuine V72 hands. Also if you noted the V72 subdial hands need varing length tubes for them to capture the posts.

...I have had to broach hands, even the V72 ones...

Ziggy -- Does this broaching set from Cas-Ker look like it contains the correct sizes for v72 hands?

The price is good & it comes in a case that coordinates with my drapes.

Euno -- You are sort of right that the watch will probably spend most of its time in a drawer, but not for the reason you mentioned. I just do not think a vintage Daytona is appropriate for daily wear. At least not for me. You probably know that I have had a Venus/Lemania Newman for several years and I would wear it every day if it was appropriate (and I did not mind getting scratches on it, there are none currently).

But I am also always conscious of the fact that it does not have asymmetric pushers, so I am sometimes hesitant to wear it to places where I might run into people who know what to look for. But once I complete this v72 Newman, that will be one less thing to worry about and the new watch will get a bit more wrist time.

Based on my email exchanges with DW, I think the problem is the same that many Asian rep sellers have -- they do not really know these watches. DW sent me a photo of his personal Daytona and, by our standards, it was a mess. He had an Oyster dial and pump pushers with a Triplock crown. And, until I pointed these things out, he was totally unaware there was any difference. (I cannot really blame DW, since there are so many variations and exceptions to every design rule within Rolex's models, especially these Newman Daytonas.) I have had similar conversations with other Asian sellers of better quality rep watches and parts. A popular dial seller recently updated some of their dials as per my instructions after I gave them a laundry list of problems on their existing dials. They simply were unaware of the details and this is why it is so hard to find rep parts that are completely correct. They have bits and pieces of the puzzle, but never seem to connect the dots, to use the parlance of our times (for you Lebowsky fans out there).

Thanks Ziggy.

I thought the pin was for alignment also, but I wanted to get a second opinion before I make any permanent modifications to an (expensive) movement.

The DW hands look great and appear to be pretty well made (surprisingly, the 3 subdial hands DO have the correct varying length tubes)

But the holes in all 6 hands are just too small to fit onto the pinions of the v72. I can probably broach them if you (or someone) know the correct sizes of the pinions. Also, do you (or someone) know of a good, reasonably priced broaching set? Am I correct in thinking that I need smoothing broaches (and a hand holder) as opposed to cutting broaches to enlarge the holes in the hands?? Does that sound right, RG? Is there a broaching set you would recommend that contains the right types & sizes?

The case the donor came with was not its original case. It looked like the previous owner sort of jury-rigged the movement into the case using the original movement fixing screw holes, but the movement was a bit loose in the case when I got it. So I will probably have to come up with something better once I can get the movement into the case to see what fits where and how.

And for anyone else who is considering a DW project, you should also expect to have to replace the DW pushers with another set because the pusher holes in the case are just slightly too large for the pushers DW supplies with the case. If you have ever tried to put a screw into a screw hole that is just slightly too large for the screw, where the screw threads never quite interlock (because there is too much space between them), you will have the same experience with these pushers. The gap is not so big that the pushers slide in and out of the holes freely, but the screw threads between the screw and hole do not mate either. So there is no way (short of gluing the pushers into the holes) to properly secure DWs pushers into his case. Fortunately, on a fluke, I found that the pushers I have been getting from ofrei ($12/each) are a perfect fit and I think they are also machined a bit better than the DW pushers. They certainly have a 'richer' feel in use. So when you order a DW case, be sure to order a few pushers from ofrei (part number PD61.701) at the same time.

Thanks again, RG. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Has anyone with a completed DW project ever run into these 2 issues before (the pin sticking out of the side of the v72 & the DW hands not fitting the Valjoux pinions)? DW tells me all of the hands should fit, but they clearly do not.

He's a she actually and they're pretty good dials, but pricey for a redial Some dials seem to be more accurate than others. As for dealing with NDT, great communication and prompt shipping.

I agree.

Euno -- Not very encouraging, but I appreciate your input. I guess I was expecting more assembly than construction. Hopefully, someone else will know what the pin is and if I have the wrong hands. I can see that it will be worth the effort once I can get it done.

I am having some trouble fitting my v72 movement into the DW 6239 case. There is a pin that sticks out the side of the pillar plate, between the stem and the lower pusher that is causing the problem

Anyone run into this before?

Also, should the DW hands be a tight fit onto the v72's pinions? I might be able to press them on with some force, but it would definitely take more force than I am used to having to apply to attach a hand. Has anyone had a problem fitting DW's hands?

_________

UPDATE: I just compared the Flytimer's original chrono hands to the set I received from DW, and the holes in the original hands are definitely larger, as you can see in this photo

The other hands (hour, minute, chrono seconds) are similarly too small. So, unless broached (and, unfortunately, I do not have the proper broach), I do not see how the DW hands can possibly fit a v72 movement. What have others done for hands when building a DW?

Alligoat -- The He valve in my DRSD came from the same watch, but I got mine from either Josh or Andrew (the same case has been around for a few years). There are actually a few different Subs and Seadwellers that use that same case. Unfortunately, the only thing I found useful is the He valve. The rest of the case has too many problems (does not easily accept gen parts, difficult/impossible to remove bezel/insert without damage, etc.) to be useful for serious modding.

There are too many variations (some very subtle) to be able to explain them all here. But, in many cases, the main problem is the width and shape of the bottom of the CG (where it slopes into the case). If you look at the crowns on a gen & rep of the same model side by side, you will usually see that the lower half of the rep's crown is covered by the lower curve of the CG. On the gen watch, either there is a tiny bit of space between the crown and the edge of the CG or the CG covers less of the crown.