TeeJay

Indeed, but, with respect, this is not about your, or my, choices for purchasses or rationale for buying them. It is about behaviour from the Cartel, which falls squarely in the label of 'unacceptable', and has resulted in their being banned from RWI. Personally, given the incidents in the past, the Little White Lies, the claims of water-proofing and servicing of untouched watches, the drop-shipping of watches, and using that as an exuse for the delivered watch differing from the advertized watch to fob off a customer, I feel that this incident should be enough to make the admins of the other forums say "Enough is enough," and for them to stand behind RWI, by imposing identical sanctions on the Cartel, but I have the disappointing feeling that no such sanctions will be taken, and this, like every other betrayal of trust by the Cartel, will go unchecked and unpunished. And why? Both Andrew and Joshua have viewed this thread today, neither have taken the time to comment, explain, defend or deny these issues. They clearly do not care, so why should we, as a community, continue to tollerate such disinterested dealers? Beyond raffle contributions, what do they actually contribute to this community? When was the last time they posted for anything other than to deny a customer issue, or to announce a new product for sale? When was the last time they took part in an off-topic conversation about music, or cars, or women, or any of these things which make this community great? Why do the admins continue to tollerate the presense of two such apathetic people? They [the Cartel] clearly don't care enough to discuss the issue openly, so why should they remain as 'trusted dealers'? I just find the whole thing very disappointing (even if not unexpected)

That's fine, I totally understand what you mean, and I value your candour and honesty. Without intending to come across as 'moral', or judgemental, I can only say that I am voicing my opinion, in the hopes that it will benefit the whole community, not just me individually, as in all honesty, it does not (at this point) directly affect me or my buying choices. However, if, in the future, the Cartel do get to a level with the factories where they can influence sales to smaller dealers, that could affect my choices, something I would consider unacceptable, and as such, I'd rather see things taken care of now, at this point, rather than things progressing further. Absolutely. There has been so much better relations between the forums recently, and talk of inter-forum co-operation, it would be nice to actually see it in practice on an issue like this, which affects all members of our community, regardless what forum or level of subscription they may be, rather than just being given token 'lip service', to keep relations between the forums cordial.

Indeed, but, I believe the point Peepshow was making, is that these are dealers who are presented on these forums, and by these forums, as trustworthy. Even if forum disclaimers might deny any such endorsement or promotion, the implication a forum creates by allowing dealers to advertize their wares and services, is that they are trustworthy. When such incidents occur, which show certain dealers in a negative light, when forums do not take steps to remove them (as happens very rarely) it can create an uneasy feeling amongst the membership, who's auctions, donations and subscriptions, are what provide these dealers with their place to advertise. As I said before, I do feel sorry for Joshua for getting punished equally for Andrew's behaviour, but, that is the risk and consequence of having such a closely linked business. All I would like to see, in the spirit of inter-forum relations, is the other forums making the same sanctions which RWI have already made. It's all well and good to talk about co-operation, but it is times like these, when actions speak louder than words, and where co-operation has to mean more than simply talking about good relations. RWI drew the line in the sand, it is for the rest of us, as a community, be it as admins, or members to stand behind them, united, with the sanctions imposed by one forum, upheld by all forums, for reasons which would impact the whole market which is our hobby.

Where did it come from: The first (and most frequent) use of it, that I am aware of, is from inner-city African-Americans. Why?: It is a way of apologizing without having to actually say "I'm sorry..." so probably an easier admission for a someone full of machismo and 'ghetto pride' to make. I may well be wrong, but those are my thoughts on the expression... I shall now don my Forum5000 Flame-Proof suit, for the outcries that I am 'being racist'

This is where I, respectfully, have to disagree with you. Although I don't own a genuine SFSO (I simply don't like how it looks on my wrist) I have made an extremely close inspection of one, and did not find the quality of the finish to be any better than some of my favorite watches, such as the One Eight Something, and my 104. Cosmetically, they may not be 1:1 replications, but, in terms of manufactured products, they are just as well made. Equally, I've seen an Omega 2220.80 in an AD which had two manufacturing flaws on the bezel insert...

You're absolutely right there, amigo, it is up to us as a community to act. I also feel it is up to the admins of the forums to make good on this inter-forum co-operation, by imposing mutual sanctions on the Cartel. That would be an even bigger blow to their [the Cartel's] crediblity than people saying "I won't buy from them anymore..." All the time the forum admins continue to allow them to operate as 'trusted dealers', in their [the Cartel's eyes], they have won/done no wrong/are untouchable. RWI has drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us all to get behind them as Allies. All I'm trying to illustrate, is that for the most part, most people are satisfied with the majority of available watches. It is only the most die-hard fans (or those who truly feel the need to misrepresent their watches as gen) who crave the Super Reps, and, even then, those are equally available from other sources. TTK claimed he was the only dealer to have the 'NoobMariner', yet, another new dealer has been able to tap into that source as well. I've seen Tony advertising MBK PP Nautilus, with both Asian and Swiss movements. Now, I don't know enough about the MBK PPs to verify that they indeed are MBK PPs, but, I do know that Tony is not a watch enthusiast, does not know the details himself, and relies solely on what his supplier tells him. Now, the Cartel on the other hand, play a (apparently) huge part in the construction of such super reps, yet, the B&R Fiasco showed that they were knowingingly and intentionally mislabelling their products. It's not a month ago that someone pointed out that a watch they bought from Joshua had a different crown to the stock picture, and, the only defense he had for that, was that as a drop-shipper, he did not realize that the new stock had different details to the advertized photo. Personally, I find that line hard to believe, especially from someone who 'plays a major role' with the factories. It may be an uncharitable view on my part, but to me, it just came across as another example of Joshua trying to manipulate a client. (Again) But, given the past actions of the Cartel, I feel my schepticism is not without reason.

I neither own, nor would want to own, any of those watches you mentioned... Same goes for the Big Bang. I simply do not like them. Everything I have ever wanted watch-wise, I have been able to source from other dealers. (and, in the past, I have used several, including the infamous Applewave)

They will probably decide to either seek alternative sources, or simply go without. Who actually needs a 1:1 super rep anyway? Only dishonest people who want to pass the watch off as genuine to others. Anyone else, who simply has a genuine appreciation for nice watches, and who is not afraid to tell someone they are wearing a rep, will be satisfied by what else is on offer. Also, regardless of the money and pre-sales they may put in, if enough people were to actually stop buying from the Cartel, if the various forums were prepared to actually stand behind RWI and actually ban them from all the forums, then the factories would drop them, because they would want outlets for their product which people are prepared to buy from. That would be the smaller dealers... I don't 'wonder', I outright think it should, even if it is just as a show of solidarity and inter-forum co-operation. - "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

You're absolutely right there, I wouldn't dispute or argue that at all. The only reason I mentioned the nature of their products, is because it is a previous (and consistent) example of their unacceptable behaviour, which, for reasons known only to others, went un-checked, and was infact tollerated. I was simply pointing out, as a way of illustrating previous conduct, that these two dealers do not have unblemished records, do have a history of lying to and manipulating their clients, and, are not above taking the actions which led to the RWI ban. I'm just sick of seeing members of the community defending and justifying their actions, when their own actions today, prove that they a ) do not deserve such loyalty, and b ) do not even care enough to defend themselves...

I have never spent a penny with a Cartel dealer. If my source happens to use the same factory (and I don't know or care if they do), then so be it. They are simply someone who buys from the same factory. So the Cartel might have (apparently) provided a watch for use in replication... There are also claims that they have not actually provided a watch for replication. Also, this is a deflection of the issue, as my watches and supplier are not the issue here. The issue, is the unnacceptable business practices of the Cartel. There was a case in the UK last week where someone who had received a Royal Honour for their work with children and founding a children's charity, was charged as a child abuser. Did anyone think "Oh, he did all that good work, so what if he copped a feel every now and again..." No. They said that such behaviour was unnacceptable, and actions were taken, and that is how the situation here should be dealt with. Whatever 'good will' Jandrew might have earned in the past, is not to be used as a 'get out of jail free card' when they get caught with their pants down (again) behaving in an unacceptable way (again). As I said before, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation. It is time for all forums, and all the members of this community to stand behind RWI and say "no more" to the Cartel's shennanigans. If that means less easy access to Super Reps, so be it. That is the price to pay. As I said before, there are other dealers available other than the Cartel... Both Andrew and Joshua have observed this thread, and both have skulked off without offering so much as a word of explanation or defence for their actions. Open your eyes. They do not care about their reputations with these forums. Their actions prove this repeatedly. It is time to stop turning the other cheek, and time to fight against those who are fighting against us...

Godfrey, Godwin, same difference

No, it is not. But, selling a comfoter described as containing goose down, when it infact contains horsehair, would be a bait and switch tactic, so not acceptable either. Or, selling a goose down comforter, taking the money from the customer, and never despatching the comforter. No one is saying that Jandrew have 'scammed' customers, but that they have previously intentionally lied about the nature of their products, and, in this particular instance, are trying to strong-arm smaller rep dealers into increasing their own prices, just so they will not lose out on sales to a cheaper dealer. Those are not business tactics which should be tollerated from people who are placed in the position of trust, which they are, as being 'recommended' by the forums as trustworthy. For the record, I feel sorry for Joshua that he has also been banned on account of Andrew's behaviour, but, I do agree with the reasoning behind it: They do have close business ties, and, as the saying goes, if someone lies down with a dog, they should not be surprized when they get fleas...

It's not quite the same though, as with the ADs, it would be Rolex themselves who take the action. To keep with your analogy, this would be like one AD, saying to another AD, put your prices to the same as ours, or we'll make sure you lose your supply of Rolexes... It's nothing more than petty bully-boy strong-arm tactics, and not the kind of behaviour which should be tolerated from people who are held in positions of esteem and trust. As mentioned before, there was the evidence of the Little White Lies, and nothing was done. This is something else quite different, but equally disturbing, particularly as it involves the same dealers. How much more leeway do these guys actually deserve? Not to intentionally Godfrey myself, but c'mon, when Hitler rolled into Poland, did nations sit back and let him, or, did they say 'Not on our watch...' and actually do something about it? Are the UN letting Mugabe get away with his political machinations, or, are they imposing sanctions against him? RWI have done something about it. They've drawn the line in the sand, it's time for us as a community, and these forums, as our 'nations', to stand behind them and back their sanctions. Enough is enough. There are plenty of dealers out there who will not lie to buyers or intentionally misrepresent their product. People do not need the Cartel...

I'm just calling it as I see it, and how I feel the community should proceed. Afterall, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation, I just think it would be nice, in times like this, for it to be acted upon unilaterally Of course, that's just my own feeling on the matter... I know what you mean, but, that said, there was evidence of the lies about the B&R movements, and their supporters still tried to justify things for them. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy from them anymore, as that's a person's own choice. What I do feel, is that as one forum has taken steps over a serious reason, it would be good manners and solidarity for the other forums to impose likewise sanctions

Absolutely. What with all this talk of inter-forum relations, I think it's time for the forums to actually act upon them, and act as the one community, which we all are. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. They've stood up and said "No, not on our watch..." (no pun intended) It's time for the other forums to now back their decision, with identical sanctions. I feel like it's the eve of war What we need, is: Our Community... __________________________ The Cartel...

An interesting point, but totally irrelevent to what has happened. Allow me to illustrate: There's quite a difference between adjusting one's own prices to balance a weak dollar, and threatening other dealers to raise their prices, or they will lose their supply from the factories. Jandrew did the latter: Threatening other dealers to raise prices or lose their factory supply. Now, that may well be how such businesses operate, but, these forums are here to protect the buyers. If dealers are shown to have unreasonable behaviour in one area of their business, it is not a stretch of the imagination that they will have unreasonable behaviour in other areas of their business. This has been proven over and over again with the Little White Lies threads. At the end of the day, Josh and Andrew are liars and manipulators, and can only be trusted to behave thus. If people want to continue to buy from them, then that is their personal choice and right to do so. But. Personally, I feel the way they have behaved (little white lies) has been tollerated long enough, and personally, would consider this latest revelation to be 'the straw that broke the camel's back', and ban them from the forums, as quite simply, they are not trustworthy, and, it will not be long before their behaviour then turns on their clients. As has been noted above, Andrew couldn't be bothered to even attempt to defend himself. I think that says everything there is to say about how much he actually cares about his reputation among forum buyers. I think that's a very interesting, and very likely possibility (especially with the high end reps) that, even if the watches are not being stolen as a complete piece, the parts themselves could certainly be making their way out of the factory's back door, to then be assembled in the 'back room factories' which we know operate. Absolutely spot on. Funny how these threads are always about them, isn't it

It's sad, because it's true...

Ahh, thanks for the advice I think the thing which concerned me, was the abruptness with which the actual need to crack my back came on. When I did it years ago, I'd felt fine before, it was purely accidental, and, despite feeling fine before, I felt better for it... The recent adjustments, however, I'd been feeling that wierd 'pressure' in my lower back, had a hunch, so twisted in my seat, a few cracks later, the pressure was gone, just like when I crack my knuckles I think my most unusual 'crack', is, sometimes, if I sleep on my right hand side (and arm), when I wake up, across the top of my breastbone feels 'tight', and, stretching my shoulders back, sure enough, will make that crack The thing that gets me with that, is there are no joints to pop in that area

Those 'little white lies' do keep coming up... I only hope that people will ignore personal conflicts and opinions, and look to (I believe the Japanese word 'kokoro'* sums it up best) and start realizing the truth about the Cartel. *the heart of things'

Ahh, fair enough. I admit, I don't post there often, although I can't put my finger on a specific reason, it just doesn't appeal to me as much as this forum does.

Hola, amigo I'm not on any medications at all, and, last time I had it checked, my cholesterol was only 3.5

Thanks for the advice and suggestions, guys. Knowing the mechanics behind 'cracking joints', the thing I don't understand, is, is this down to an increased production of synovial fluids? I think I'll start simple with some glycosamine supplements. When I damaged my shoulder a few months back, a gel with glycosamine in it made a significant improvement, and accellerated the healing time considerably. Thanks again

They look unfinished and crap. The accents on the old bracelets echoed the design elements of the watch case. All this is, is plain stainless steel. It looks like a 'blank', rather than a finished product... I can't see myself buying one...

It'd be interesting to know. I'm sure I remember reading that anyone who dared to criticise Jandrew there would get a serious flaming, or rather, the e-equivelent of an ordered 'punishment beating'.

I'd like to be able to say I'm shocked, surprized and appalled by this, but I can't. Well, I'm appalled that such harrassment would be undertaken, but as for shocked and surprized... I hate to say it, but, I told you so...