TeeJay

I was, but people have kept directing posts to me. As for trolling, you're not actually contributing anything to the discussion, so what does that make your comment?

Apologies for missing this post previously. Please do not put words in my mouth. self-centered? Don't make me laugh. If I was as 'self-centered' as you believe, I would not have written this thread, or ever tried to open people's eyes to the Cartel's business practices. Yes, trying to inform others... Very self-centered of me... This has absolutely nothing to do with what I want. Take a step back and look at the message, not the messenger. And yes, it is all there, including the slurs of accusing me of being a troll, and as for 'conspiracy theories', it's not a conspiracy when it is supported by countless discussions and screenshots which showed another dealer being intimidated by Andrew.

I agree, it's not the admins job to manage their business practices, I just fail to see the logic in allowing dealers to remain, who have been banned by another forum, for manipulative and predatory practices, and that was why I asked the questions I did. For the record, I would like to state here and now that they were only ever intended as questions, it was never my intention for them to be received as accusations, so my most sincere apologies for how they have clearly been received. It's not a case of me being upset about their business practices, or that I think people shouldn't buy from them, as I pointed out over the page, people are perfectly entitled to buy from whoever they want. Also, if I was to post warning every n00b, then I would most definitely be living up to the label of 'troll' which TT saw fit to slap me with, and that never has or ever will be, my intention.

They might not having anything to do with RWG as a forum, but they are still relevent to the people here who are are all part of the community which these forums represent. As I said above, it was not my intention to cast any slurs or insinuations, my motive was as simple as I claimed it to be. Best regards, I don't know why I felt the need tp be the spokesperson for the community either. Possibly because I felt the answers to the questions affected all members of this community (including those beyond this specific forum), and, as with previous discussions of this nature, I could only see nothing being done, and felt the people who are paying for the forum, were entitled to an explanation as to why that would be. While no one appointed me spokesperson, the fact that there were responces to my initial post which agreed with the reasons I felt the question needed to be asked, I can only take as validation that the issue was preying on the minds of others, and that others equally wanted to know what was going on. Best regards, By all means feel free to lock this thread, or take whatever action is deemed appropriate. I will abide by any decisions made.

Maybe it is insulting, but it was honestly not my intention for it to be taken thusly. Personally, I consider it insulting that people are frequently asked to support the forum, yet when something like this occurs which could impact on the whole community, the admins refuse to take any action which could actually protect the membership. Neutrality is all well and good, but, when people are sending money in good faith, they have a right to know how it is being used to their protection. Best regards,

Please do not assume to know some 'agenda' on my part, and no, I do not think you are complete idiots. Equally, do not assume that the membership who continue to pay your bills are idiots. They have a right to know what their money supports, and if it is being used in accordance with which it is donate: To fund a forum which claims to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous sellers, but, when it comes down to it, refuses to ban two dealers who have consistently proven that their business practices are manipulative and predatory. People like me? Dirty gossip and 'allegations', I suggest you take a closer look at the screen shots which have been provided, and then take a long hard think about if they are actually 'dirty gossip and allegations', or, if they are actually legitimate. As for saying I have no class, I couldn't care less what someone on a forum who's never said more than a dozen words to me thinks of me. Deny it all you want, but this does nothing to appease people's concerns, or disprove any 'theories or agendas', but will only serve to reinforce them. Best regards, Indeed, I did miss that, so sorry for the oversight. Best regards,

I don't think it's possible to take any of that comment as disrespectful, and I think you are absolutely right about people gravitating towards the forum which best suits their personalities. However, the reason why I feel so obliged to ask these questions, is that we (as a community, and this forum in particular) are often told two things: 1) The forum exists to create a safe haven for buyers, so people do not have to use unscrupulous dealers. From that perspective, I cannot understand why unscrupulous dealers who have been proven so (as in this case) would be allowed to remain as dealers, when their business ethics ultimate put them against the principle of what is a safe haven for the buyers. 2) Contributions/Donations/Subscriptions are necessary to pay for the technical services which make the forum viable. As the people who are 'paying the bills' (some more so and some less so than others) I feel that the membership are entitled to explanations and justifications with regards policies which affect the 'safety' of the community they are paying for, as with the above point: If it is something which affects them, they have a right to know, just as other tax payers have the right to know how their taxes are being spent. I think that you are absolutely right, but, if Jandrew's areas were removed, people would still be able to track them down and buy from them. That would not take away anyone's right to choose to do business with them. It would, however, send a clear message, that any kind of 'unacceptable behaviour' on a dealer's part (which relates to their business practices) will result in the loss of dealership privelages (and this is a privelage, as these forums do funnel a lot of business to them) I quite agree, the way RG has handled the issue is not the most 'comforting', but equally, neither is 'remaining neutral'. TO me, and again, this is just my feeling on the situation, but not backing up the stance of RWI, makes all this talk of 'inter-forum co-operation' nothing more than lip service and platitudes to keep the peace, rather than a true alliance (which it should be) As I said in the other thread on the topic. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. Personally, I feel we should all be backing them for the reasons they made the choice (regardless of who the sanctions are against), not playing the 'neutrality card', as that simply raises the questions which I felt compelled to ask above...

Thanks, I hope T does take the questions in the spirit they're intended, as I genuinely do not understand the reaction (or rather lack of). Indeed, I suspect these are questions which many may be thinking, but maybe not comfortable asking. Well, I'm not entirely comfortable asking them, but feel that they do need to be asked, and worry that had I not asked them, no one else would... Here's fingers crossed that T does view them as constructive, and be able to help me understand the situation better

Thanks for the support, amigo Without wanting to badmouth RG, the screenshots provided did show that they didn't want to mess with the Cartel (although the actual reason for not wanting to tangle was never actually given) so I think it's a reasonable conclusion, that they either endorse the Cartel's behaviour, or are being 'compelled' to turn a blind eye (politest way I can think of putting it) As above, I'm not out to stir trouble, but I genuinely cannot understand how a forum which is based on the ethos of protecting buyers from unscrupulous dealers, can take no action against dealers who have been proven to be unscrupulous, regardless of their popularity. It has to be one rule for all, not one rule for some, another for others... I've found the whole thing very disappointing. Not a case of being disappointed because I want the Cartel gone, but disappointed that nothing is (apparently) being done against dealers who have been proven to resort to methods which are un-justifiable...

Please understand, that I am not doing this out of any 'agenda' or desire to cause trouble, stir things up, etc, this is with regards something which I genuinely cannot understand, and simply cannot comprehend. I am asking these questions here, rather than in PM or in the Platinum Section, because it is something which affects the whole community, and, to be honest, something which affects other members more than it does me, so I feel everyone is as entitled to the answers than I am, in fact, they are probably more entitled to them than I am. The comments I make, I would rather not debate, as they have already been proven factually accurate, so I mention them only so it is possible to appreciate how I am viewing the situation and what my perspective is. At the very least, it might make it easier to correct my misunderstanding Following the recent postings and threads on RWI, it has become clear that the Cartel have tried to use 'strong-arm' tactics to intimidate smaller dealers, and, as a result, they have had their dealer sections removed from RWI. There has been so much talk recently about inter-forum co-operation, better relations between the forums, and a whole load of good things. It's bringing new faces round the campfire, so new advice and perspectives. Bearing this spirit of inter-forum co-operation in mind, I find myself compelled to the following questions. 1. Is the behaviour, which the Cartel was banned for, something which the administrators of this forum consider acceptable or something which should be supported? i) If so, please explain why? ii) If not, why have their sales sections remained in place? 2. Does the Cartel have any influence in the administration of this forum? (I'm sorry I have to ask this question, but it is the only reason I personally can see, for why the Cartel have not been similarly sanctioned, as on RWI, namely for behaviour which throws their whole 'moral compass and business practices' into question) 3. What sanctions do the administrators plan to put into effect against the cartel so as not to allow them to think their behaviour towards such smaller dealers is tollerated? Again, my apologies for having to ask these questions, I know that, in terms of contributions, mine have not been the largest, but, I feel that this is an issue which relates to all members of this community, regardless of their level of contribution, and, as much as I hate having to say this, I do not like the idea of the money which I gladly pay towards forum costs, to (albeit indirectly) give the Cartel a place to operate, or a ready supply of customers who may not be aware of their business practices. Once more, my most sincere apologies, but following the result of the discussion on this matter, as I said above, it is something which I simply do not understand, as it seems to go against the very ethos of this community: Protecting buyers, from unscrupulous dealers...

I don't know if a hairdryer can generate the same heat as a daylight bulb, but, I once put a POS SMP under a daylight bulb to dry condensation from the inside of the case. The lume aged about 50 years in 50 minutes, and the plastic movement holder warped from the heat. The result of the warped holder, was that the rotor was no longer able to spin freely, thus the watch was no longer self-winding, and had to be manually wound. I'm not sure if a hairdryer could generate this intensity of heat, but I've always been wary of hot things (childhood accident with a restaurant hot plate, which I still have the scar on my hand from, 22 years later. If only there'd been compo suits back then, I'd've made some crazy money for such an enduring injury ) Anyhoo, totally stripping the watch won't take more than five minutes, and is a good time to re-set the time to test the watch's accuracy PS When replacing the crystal, if you don't have a crystal press, simply put a T-Shirt on a solid table, place the crystal 'dome side' down on the shirt, position the case, with your thumbs between the lugs (removing the bracelet makes this whole thing a lot easier) and then, keeping your arms and thumbs locked, use your shoulders to transfer your weight forwards in a rolling motion, till you hear the crystal 'pop' back into place It doesn't take long, and is quite fun to do, as it's a very simple 'mod' for anyone first getting to grips with things Thanks for the endorsement, Takashi-San Thanks, it certainly saves the 'fun' of trying to get the bezel and spring back in place

Here's best wishes for a swift and full recovery. Take things easy, and chin up

The easiest method, is to completely strip the watch, pop the crystal out from the back, and then very very gently, from the back, tweak up the inner edge of the insert until it loosens enough to lift off without bending. Removing the movement is easy, as is popping the crystal. Putting it back together again isn't particularly challenging either Best of luck

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean that you don't believe all of the claims? If you mean with regards the B&R Fiasco, they were caught labelling movements as one thing, when they were something else. In the end, the closest to an admission, was when Andrew said that yes, they did have the other movements in, but they were known in China by the other name. There are numerous reports of people paying extra for a watch to be waterproofed, and receiving watches which leaked when they got wet. When someone 'arrived in the game' is no excuse for not educating one's self about these discussions. I don't mean to be offish or abrupt, but I am not prepared to debate with you wether the Cartel are, or are not unscrupulous, as the evidence of this is long established, that they are unscrupulous. It has simply taken this long for a forum to have the balls to stand up to them. And if that's been your experience, then that's a wholly valid opinion. I'm sorry to hear that your transaction with Eurotimez hasn't gone down well, the only reason I commented on that, was because he has shown examples of the QC he provides, where the Cartel only drop-ship. As before, I have no problem with Eurotimez charging a higher price, because of the actual QC which his services provide. Not to be overly moral or condescending, but personally, I'm looking at this for what is best for this overall community, not what is best for me. As the thread on RWI clearly states, this is not about forcing anyone to buy or not to buy from the Cartel, but about taking a stand against unscrupulous dealers.

Then with the greatest of respect, what precicely are you bringing to this discussion? Legality has nothing to do with it. The fact is, these forums to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers. The Cartel are unscrupulous dealers, and there is plenty of evidence available which supports that. RWI had the stones to ban them, and, if you were to take the time to read the thread which is highlighted in the opening posts, I believe that you will find the facts speak for themselves. Trying to strong arm other dealers into price matching is not civilized. Andrew and Joshua both have history of lying to, and attempting to manipulate, both potential and existing clients alike. Your deals might have been good. Frankly, I couldn't care less. This is not about your deals with Joshua. It is not about any of our deals with Joshua. It is about the Cartel stepping over the line. Again. And only one forum having the balls to stand up to them. That would be because Eurotimez actually performs extensive quality control checks on his watches... Something the Cartel do not. They say they will do it, take the money for it, but ship an unchecked watch. Again, the evidence to support this is available. Eurotimes does check his watches, so is well within his rights as a merchant, to charge extra for a service which he actually provides.

Precicely. Equally though, the forums need to do their part (after all, they exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers) and, allowing dealers to retain 'trusted' status, despite being banned from another forum for unacceptable business practices, I'm sorry to say, I personally, do not percieve as 'neutrality', but a simple unwillingness to act in the best interests of the people who's hard earned money enables the forums to remain online. It has been stated often enough that it is supporters, contributors and donators who keep the forums afloat, personally, I do not view banning two (frequently) disgraced dealers to be such a sacrifice on behalf of that supporting membership... I really don't mean to be argumentative, but I find this apparent lack of willingness to take action as utterly incomprehensible. It's like I said a few pages back about the recent UK child molester who had received Royal Honours for his work with children's charities. No one considered those things to validate his behaviour, or make it 'ignorable', and he was punished for what he did. RWI have taken the action to ban the Cartel, I do not understand any reason why other forums will not follow suit, particularly given the new era of inter-forum co-operation.

Oh absolutely, I quite agree with you, and that was definitely the situation, as people were scared of losing their supply. Personally, I was never bothered as I never had the supply in the first place. I couldn't lose what I never had, and equally, can never be denied something which I simply don't want. The Cartel is no longer a conspiracy theory though, that they were banned from RWI is proof positive of that (and of which there was already plenty of supporting evidence) Indeed, it is a good thing, but, unless the admins (of all forums) are prepared to act, then it is just discussion, and not likely to actually achieve anything. To say it's not all black and white though, I really do not understand, and honestly feel the membership deserve to have explained to them. What is not cut and dry about banning dealers who have been proven time and again as liars, manipulators, and now racketeers, from a forum which is supposed to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous dealers? They are, by definition, unscrupulous, so why are they still allowed to remain as forum sanctioned dealers? That is against the very ethos this community is built upon. What possible reason could the admins have for not banning them? Absolutely so, yet, as evidence has shown, they have viewed this topic several times today, yet chosen not to comment on the matter in any way. That shows their lack of interest in this forum, or the opinions of it's membership. More fool them... My frustration is not 'majority rules', as that is the basis of democracy. My frustration, is that there have been numerous times when the Cartel have been caught, not only with their pants down, but balls deep in their victims, yet their conduct is ignored and tollerated, as they remain 'trusted dealers'. Again, I ask why this is, when it goes against the ethos of the community. I simply cannot understand the logic behind such decisions. That is my main frustration. The situation which is under discussion now, is, in my opinion, just even more of an insult, as there has been all this talk about inter-forum co-operation, and better relations between the forums, yet, when one forum has the stones to ban the Cartel, none of the others appear willing to show the backbone to do likewise, making a mockery of the concept of 'co-operation'. A friend who talks nice about me, but won't back me up when I make a decision, is not a true friend. RWI have drawn the line to protect the community. We ought to be backing them all the way with identical sanctions and buying practices, not simply allowing a discussion to continue, but not appear to be being taking any action. I say 'appear', as that is how I am perceiving the response from the other forums. Behind the scenes, they may indeed be in intense discussion and plan to ban the Cartel. I don't know. All I am saying, is that nothing appears to be being done to support the stance RWI have been bold enough to take, and that is what I find truly disappointing.

Absolutely. But. All the time they are still allowed to maintain a presense as 'trusted dealers', there will be those who continue to buy from them, thinking that the forum is 'vouching for them'. RWI had the stones to ban them. They drew the line in the sand. It is for every forum, which claims to be enjoying this inter-forum co-operation, to stand together in solidarity with RWI by imposing the same sanctions. This spirit of co-operation deserves to be more than just 'lip service', it needs to be acted upon, even in difficult or unpleasant circumstances. That is the true test of character. That is the true test of one's friends. The ones who stand with you, or those who walk on by. As I said before, I'm just very disappointed by the whole charade

But the forums do not (or rather, should not) allow dealers with issues such as these attributed to them, to maintain a position as 'forum recommended dealers'. Where are the references for EuroFakes, UltimateReplica and the like? They are certainly not in the 'recommended dealer' sections, that's for sure. Multiple issues have arisen about the Cartel, yet, their position remains unchanged. Yes, of course reviews help buyers with their purchasses and choices, but allowing Cartel Dealers to remain in the 'trusted' catagory, is an insult to everyone who pays money to keep these forums afloat, with the intention that they (the forums) continue to protect consumers from unscrupulous dealers. If someone chooses to keep buying from Jandrew the racketeer, then that's up to them. Their business practices have been exposed on numerous occasions, yet any dissenting voices are always glossed over, ignored, or ridiculed, when instead, the Cartel should have been given it's marching orders, and re-positioned away from the 'trusted dealers' long ago...

I couldn't agree more strongly with what you re-posted

I'd just like to say thanks for doing it, I can only hope that other forums follow your example, and, as mentioned, in the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, if it was down to me (which I know it isn't) I'd impose matching sanctions on them. You drew the line in the sand, and, as much or as little as it will do to help, I'll be right behind you defending that line.

I quite agree with you. I too, bought my first (and only) Sub from one of the so-called 'scam' sites. EuroFakes, to be precice. Like you, I received a really nice watch, and do not feel in any way 'scammed' by them. Would it have been nice to have got it for $200 from a dealer here? Sure, but, that wasn't the way things worked out, so I'm not going to cry about it. The lesson was learned, and, two years later, the watch does not even see wrist time. Not because it's not working, but because my tastes have evolved away from Rolex. But, this isn't really the topic of discussion here, and has nothing to do with the Cartel strong-arming smaller dealers... Indeed, but, should you fail to maintain the behaviour which earned you the position of 'trusted dealer', would you expect to keep it? Would you expect people to keep defending you for past transactions, or accept that they will judge you based on your current transactions? Would you be bothered if they said you were going to lose the ability to advertise on the forums? If so, would you let such discussion run without commenting on it, or would you make a post to clarify the situation? Indeed, this is something else, and indeed, I do boycott the Cartel, for precicely those reasons, but the point is not that I boycot or renounce these dealers, but, that, when one forum bans them over a matter, as a common courtesy to the spirit of inter-forum co-operation, I would expect, or at least, like to see, other forums matching those sanctions.

I like blocks of rambling text Use of paragraphs will be considered and applied

I know what you mean, but, what is the point of the community and consumers acting to ignore them as dealers, or warning people away from them, when the forums themselves, which people also put a degree of faith in, refuse to match the sanctions imposed by another forum? As above, I just find the whole thing very disappointing