Craytonic

You obviously missed the point I have made time and time again may different ways. You can't "prove" god exists or does not to a point to satisfy everyone, most academic athiests agree on this (as pugwash did earlier). This is you missing the ball wizz by every time I bang this home. The "prove god exists" argument is one of the weakest. I can respond "prove God doesn't" or "prove you exist" and we could go on like that ad infinitum. It is the argument people make when they want to distill the issues down to little catchphrases like "bush lied people died" or things of that nature you see printed on t-shirts. It is fun to chant at a rally and probably makes the person saying it feel very self-righteous, whitty, and smart, but it does not lead _anywhere_. It is like asking does absolute truth exists.

I would say the same about attacking the person and not their argument.

Wrong how? The existence of God, christianity, the crusades, the Greeks, the meaning of life, 42 and everything else set aside for a minute - without a doubt athism is a limiting belief (no matter if athism is right or wrong). In the same manner Christianity is a limiting belief. Either one limits its patrons. This is one of the many reasons you can probably consider Athism a "religion." To be an athist you have to subscribe to certain beliefs (i.e. God does not exist), which have many implications about right/wrong, the individual, etc. I don't think I am a better person than anyone, and actually believe I am worse than many. BTW for the question of "prove God exists." Can you prove to me you exist and are not a figment of my imagination (and that every bit of proof you offer is also not a figment of my imagination)? Assuming you can't prove that, does it mean you are indeed a figment of my imagination? It is a stupid exercise, I know, but I think it makes a point.

If you believe there is no truth to seek then you are controlled by that belief because you won't seek a truth you don't believe to exist. (as opposed to seeking a truth you believe to exist but don't know) Obviously depends on what one means by "truth," but that would affect only implication and not validity. Athism is very much a cultural/religious force itself that carries with it many implications and great impact.

If an athiest believes there is no truth to seek where does that leave him?

Thank you for taking spear-heading this project! I very much look forward to seing my crystal! (btw you shipped mine to flavor-flav right? If not no big deal).

The VC overseas was a series of mistakes on my part; I bought the Silix-prime, then got the "1:1" version, sold the 1:1 version the next day, realized I really liked it, and picked it up again 2-3 months later. I think the silix-prime one is a better looking watch, but the new one is more accurate. I really like the size of the older version - it is too small as far as accuracy goes but I like a smaller watch. Anyways the bottom line is I have them both. Working on perfecting the 1:1 version. The crystal is out for AR coating now, I have a new cross to replace the 4-leaf clover on the way, and will send it to The Zigmeister for the transplant and relume.

VC overseas is a great watch. I try to hold out for as long as possible, glad I passed on the HBB and Ingie (but I know some love them) just not my thing. Picked up the tag link chrono and flipped it at a loss... just not my thing (why tag? 7750 too loud). I also don't buy certain brands: omega, Breit, Tag, or Rolex. There are exceptions.

As this thing winds up I think the major problem was that most people chose to answer the question they wanted to answer (religion, history, politics) instead of the qustion asked - skipping the do you believe in God / does God exist.

I was not addressing which God einstein believes in, but it is certain he believed in _A_ God (the topic, hello?). Note that he included "personal" before God to distinguish from not believing in God at all, and said many times that he was not an athiest and believed in a creator/prime mover. You are both skipping the question of "is there a God" (the topic) to try and answer "What would God be like." These are two separate questions, do not answer question 1 with question 2.

Humm in regards to the question "does anyone in this forum believe in God" it would still be yes for einstein (in the idea of a prime mover). I believe the debate was existence and not characteristics? Sadly people kept confusing the two.

Happy birthday! Kill it and we all eat spam to celebrate or bacon!

"I have not found a better expression than 'religious' for the trust in the rational nature of reality that is, at least to a certain extent, accessible to human reason." since we are quoting

You have long posts with 10-15 points from various subjects all intermixed together. If you made one point on one subject instead of a treatise on your beliefs it would be easier. Sorry if that is a personal attack, but it is just too time consuming to sort out your post and write a reply to each point. It is the nature of the medium (posts) that they are better suited for one small point each. I attack your discussion style because it makes it virtually impossible to attack your "points at hand." Perhaps it is me. You obviously missed the point of the quote. Our understanding of the world changes and grows over time. Just look at the progression of our understanding of the atom. The scientists of the future will likely look at ours as a world of fools, just as we look similarly of that of our predecessors - even though progress has been made. Those that have it "all explained" eventually have to eat their words, even relativity may be thrown out the window (and some researchers believe that will be soon). It requires the proper world view and perspective to realize these things. Einstein DID belive in God fyi and a reasonable person could say he was religious (google it!) He specifically disavowed being an athiest on numerous occasions (again, google is your friend).

I am sorry but you are just ranting at this point. I don't see any point in continuing, you can't really debate with someone who has the whole world (from start to finish) figured out (but congrats, I will never achieve that feat). It just is not that simple, and I have my plants to water and suitcases to pack. ‘We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know.’ - Einstein

You are all over the map, god faith, history, religion. You can't cherry pick one event from each you like and call it an argument - it is fun to spout off but it isn't proof of anything. There are no "facts" here, this is why the existence of God is the longest running debate in the history of mankind - it is something you can't "prove" on way or the other in the terms you describe. When it comes down to it, both sides as far as science goes are empty handed and you can't really debate with someone who doesn't admit it (and that 2 sentence "proof" is meaningless). Sorry, but there is no logic here and I can't argue with that.

Did they ever ask you to buy anything? Isn't there a polite refusal? I don't see the point in not just being civil. The world really is a better place if you are polite. I just really don't see the point in not giving a "No thank you." Sure you find they are bothering you... but come on. Such a staunch belief! I think you will find most people that believe in God, myself included, are always doubting our faith for this reason or that, and will entertain any idea at least for a second until they fully evaluate it. I am always willing to consider any athiest's theory. However, athiests are almost always instantly dismissive of the others that believe. There is no "picture" evidence (there are plenty of other ways to go about demonstrating the need of a prime mover, etc) you can point to that says God does or does not exist. period. end of story. This means there are two options - a) God does not exist, or he does and there is no way to prove it to you. Just as easy as you can say "prove to me there is a God." I can say "Prove to me God did not create everything." Neither of us can prove jack. (There are many rational proofs I find convincing that are logic based that I find convincing but I will be the first to admit I don't have the skill or familiarity to recite and defend them so I will leave their research as an exercise to the reader) Have you ever read a paper where a researcher tries to detect something? If they don't find it, they will say we did not DETECT anything, not that it does not exist (sample to small, measurements not acute enough, etc). That is the _responsible_ answer a truly scientific mind would give (look at any research paper). I am constantly amazed when athiests say I don't believe in God because he let "x" happen. That simply invites the counter points of both a) you don't know the full consequences of what "x" caused in the long run, and look at all the good things that have come about that should not. This isn't really fact based, so I will just point out that it always seems the opposite to me. Perhaps the problem is all people think someone is persecuting them, who knows? Congrats on the time in the high end of society, I hope you enjoyed your stay! So a) you want to be left alone the world is going to [censored] c) life is meaningless unless you have money Nothing personal, but it sounds like a bitter, empty existence? I can add that religious people tend, on average to be happier. Of the professions, ministers (and doctors) live the longest. I think this has something to do with religion giving meaning to their life. Obviously, this begs the question of do they turn to religion for that meaning, but that is an entirely different issue. Let me add I am a very strong believer, but I don't really participate in organized religion and attend services at a maximum twice a year with family as time spent together over easter and Christmas. Any "observation" of my own is thought and/or reading. I enjoy the works of many athiests, William Barrett being my favorite (followed by Sarte). That said, I believe organized religion is "good" for society as a whole.

Nothing against present company.

See my post above, Athiests are exactly the same way; I have never met one that didn't have some wise-ass comment they heard on late night TV about "how could God let X happened if he existed" or this or that (which I typically find ill-thought out and insulting). Athiesm is as much of a belief system that is preached and taught as any religion by its converts.

I don't think they were trying to insult his world view. Nothing against whoever started this thread, but I think most athiests have major issues with hubris, they are always 100% sure about their beliefs and are "insulted" that someone else would believe different. I think it is silly not to admit the possibility there is a God, and assuming thus they are somewhat justified in their beliefs, they really thought they had his best interests at heart. They were not selling crack or asking for a magazine subscription. It is silly to act like you have all the answers... no one does. No scientist can say "this is where the world came from." There are theories (big bang, etc) but they change constantly and any scientist will tell you that they are far from proven fact and can offer little more certainty that "this is what I believe happend but I can't prove it." I am not catholic but the Jesuits I have encountered here and there are the best example of religous scholars I know - they are always deep in thought about their beliefs. If you ever have the chance I encourage conversing with one of them, they go far beyond "blind faith" in their beliefs and usually have a very well thought out dogma. Think about it, they have nothing better to do all day than study and learn so they are very interesting to talk to. They typically devote at least an hour or two to thinking about it every day. We have people come by about once a month trying to convert us to his or that but I always politely tell them that I am very busy or just don't open the door. No reason not to be civil.

Only 1 out of many bad enough I had to send it back - rolex crown on dial of day/date fell off day it arrived.

You are over-looking the major shift as christianity arose and th New Testament was written that marked a substantial change in man's relationship with God (speaking jews v. christians).

You are muddling God with human religion. For instance, you proclaimed yourself a diety earlier in this thread. If I decide to worship you and kill millions in your name (with no instruction from you to do so) is that your fault? I think not. It would just mean I am a wack job (which may be true either way depending on who you ask).

Sigh, i see exactly what you are saying and you are still missing it. Really busy tonight, will try to explain tomorrow.

An athiest can be compassionate, but has no reason to do so; doing good if you are an athiest has about the moral weight of eating a bowl of oats. It is the difference between the internal/external.