Toadtorrent

Indeed. Glad you liked the post. It was a bit nerve-racking writing it up, given it was my first "real" post.

Thanks. I'm glad people are finding it useful. It was an interesting exercise to write. D320840 is what Josh has as the RLSS10001 which is different than the Begin which is his RLSS10009. He sticks an ETA movement in it, but the case isn't as good as the proper Beginmariner. He will stick an ETA movement into the Beginmariner case...you just order the RLSS10001 and in the comments request the RLS10009 case set. Andrew has the F520117 on his ETA sub as well as his cheap Asian 21J version. I'm not sure who else is using what. Not every collector shows the case serial.

Thanks...and I would be interested in seeing it. Help restore the faith in what's possible!

Ooooh...you got me...bad editing. I get a free Get of Jail card though because I'm a true Noob. I also forgot to mention that you can shake them both, but only one will complain if you remove a link...

Hah hah...does that mean I qualify for the Family Price now?

*EDITED to update progress of replacement and receipt of final watch Hi all, There have been many great guides done on the Rolex Submariner Noob/Nymph/Beginmariners comparing them to gen subs. In my process of doing research on this watch however, I came up with a number of questions about the differences between versions of one of the most popular rep watches ever made that I thought would be well served by a pictorial comparison to provide some answers. Be patient with my post...as this is my first REAL topic, and my first time taking watch pics. There was dust on the lens that I didn't feel like cleaning off and shows up with the macro stuff...oops. I also stupidly, forgot to take pics of the overall watch...oh well...we all know what subs look like right? What's important are the small details. I sadly stole some pictures from some of the better known shooters and posters on this site to provide the comparison with the watch I have in question, and I will give credit and link to the source articles for reference. ================================ TOAD's LIST OF TOP SUBMARINER QUESTIONS ================================ Q: Who has the best sub? A: Rolex Q: Who has the best replica sub? A: It depends on what your criteria are for best. The most accurate rep would probably be a highly modded franken-MBW...but at a cost approaching a used gen, this might not be considered the best value. The best rep out of the box is generally considered TTK's Noobmariner. Q: Is there a difference between the Noobmariner, Nymphmariner, and Beginmariner? A: Yes. The Noob and Beginmariner from my experience CAN be very similar, but given drop-shipping, and poor quality control, you can order one thing, and get a really bad version. Q: Are the differences big? A: You decide...ONTO THE GOOD STUFF!! ========================= THE STORY ========================= I did my research, and decided on a Josh Beginmariner. Although this wasn't the legendary TTK Noob, the pictures looked like it had the same dial, same case and same bracelet, but a different movement. Upon delivery (quick and great service from Josh as always), what arrived was NOTHING like what was pictured on the site. Josh responded quickly to my tale of problems, is taking the watch back and will send me a new one, so minimal harm done, and I would gladly buy from Josh again. These are the risks with drop shipping that I chose to take in exchange for great email service, and consistently super fast shipping. EDIT: After expensive return shipping to China ($54CDN in order to get tracking...all cheaper options didn't have tracking or would take 2 months), Josh quickly shipped a replacement Beginmariner (this time via Registered Airmail instead of EMS courier). No less than 1 day after he gave me a tracking number, he sent me ANOTHER email saying the replacement package that JUST went out, again had the wrong watch in it and that he just shipped another package, this time checked, with the supposedly correct watch. Although delays, at least there is some progress and some quality control going in now. I'll post updated pics to the comparison shots when the new watch arrives in a couple weeks. Your mileage and priorities may vary. ========================== THE CASE ========================== The gen case reference number is: 16610T The Noob serial number is: F520117 The Beginmariner serial number was SUPPOSED to be: F520117 The proper serial and reference pics were taken from Stephane's awesome review found here: Stephane's Legendary TTK Noob Review As you can see below, what arrived was a serial of F432118, a serial I had never heard of before for a sub, and a case reference of 16710T, which is in fact the case for a GMT Master II. Caseback Showing Model Sticker and Hologram: Case Serials: Case Reference: ========================== CROWN GUARDS ========================== Having the wrong case, leads to have the wrong crown guards. The Noob CG pic is from By-Tor's famous review here: By-Tor's Noob Review As you can see below, the Good Noob guards are pointier and less wide at the base: As well, you will note that the bad Begin's CG's are not symmetrical, with the right side being fatter than the left: =========================== REHAUT and DATE MAG =========================== Having the wrong case, also leads to wrong rehaut shape...the infamous conical rehaut (aka Wok). The Good Noob pic is from Stephane again. If you note, the rehaut which is the metal ring between the crystal and the dial slopes more towards the dial like the sides of a wok or cone. The depth to me looks fine. However, what is also of note in this picture is that the date magnification is pretty good, and the datewheel font is a little more bold but not too bad. ============================ BEZEL and BEZEL INSERT ============================ The bezel height between the 2 looks pretty good, but the teeth on the Good Noob are cut deeper with sharper points. The pic of the Good Noob is taken from BKLM1234's review of the Noob on Repgeek.com (you might have to register to view the post): BKLM1234 Review of Noob on Repgeek ============================ PEARL ============================ Rep pearls vary so much from what I've seen, and the Noob/Begin/Nymph vary so much in quality, most people say to upgrade the pearl regardless of which rep you get. BKLM1234 wrote an awesome post on just the pearl (his pictures are below for the gen pearl): BKLM1234's Pearl Post on Repgeek.com A summary of BKLM1234's post shows that the gen pearl is actually comprised of a dome of lume covered in a levelling layer of clear stuff...so it looks flat from a near profile view like below: ...but viewed from the top, are domed. If you note, the Bad Begin's lume is actually off centre (BKLM1234's pic on the left): ========================================= DIAL - SWISS MADE TICS AND CROOKED ETCHED CORONET ========================================= Moving onto the dial...everything gets tied together. The case is wrong, which means the rehaut is wrong, which means the dial is different as it is a narrower diameter due to the conical shape rehaut. How different is the dial? You will notice that the better Noob has 3 ticks under the words "Swiss Made", while the Bad Begin has not 3, not 4, but 5...YUP...5 (I labelled the pic wrong as 4...sorry bad counting). I apologize for the super zoom in on By-Tor's pic on the left...the things I do for semi-equivalent size comparison. You will also note that the etched coronet at 6-o-clock is also crooked, and closer to something like 6:05... ================= DIAL - CORONET SHAPE ================= More on the dial. If you look at the coronet shape, you will notice the Good Noob has the proper rounded arc of the coronet points, versus the more triangular arrangement of the points on the Bad Begin. As well, the bottom of the coronet is flatter and less round on the Good Noob than the more circular base compared with the Bad Begin. Again, I apologize for the bad zoom-in on By-Tor's pic on the left. ================= DIAL - m AND M's ================= No surprise, that if you get the wrong dial, everything on the dial is going to be wrong. In this case, the alignment of the small "m" from the 300m depth indication does not align properly with the capital "M" on CHRONOMETER. By-TOR's super zoomed-in pic again on the left... =================== CORONET INCONSISTENCY =================== Looking at the bracelet clasp, the coronet on the clasp looks correct to me, versus the coronet on the dial. =================== BRACELET =================== The bracelet on this watch seems different from the one I received compared with the Good Noob, as the number on the Solid End Links (SEL) are different. Both bracelets have the hollow middle links (sorry no picture). The SEL pic of the Good Noob is from Stephane again... ============================== CONCLUSION - UPDATED WITH FINAL WATCH ============================== Overall, once you get the core item of the case being wrong, everything else seems to go wrong thereafter. The bottom line is...I got a dud. What was pictured on the site should have been close...really close to the Legendary TTK sub. Whatever happened with the drop-shipped order led to what looked to me like sloppy leftovers. Well, Josh came through. The proper watch finally arrived. Aside from expensive return shipping to China (in order to get a tracking number), the transaction was smooth. The 3rd watch sent by Josh was finally the one (threes a charm thye say). Proper case serial, proper rehaut, proper dial, centred etched crown, etc...all is as it should be. The only critique I have of the watch is that the movement lacks the hack signal, and the rotor spin is quite loud. Otherwise, the watch looks proper. I will post updated pics soon. Hope you found this pictorial comparison useful.

Thanks for your review on this watch...it inspired me to get it...too bad I didn't have the luck of getting a water resistant one. Hopefully, when I get it serviced down the line, maybe they'll find the factory just didn't put in pusher gaskets, and that can solve the problem...

I just got my Beginmariner from Josh, and it is wokky as well. Upon closer inspection, the case serial on the picture on Josh's site shows # F520117 which is the same case number as the famed TTK Noobmariner which is why I wanted his Beginmariner which has the proper rehaut. The case number I have on the one that was delivered is # F432118, and the case reference number is 16710T which is the case for the GMT Master II, and NOT the Sub's 16610T. I think this might account for the rehaut being off. Other QC issues are that the crystal is installed crooked so the etched crown at '6 is closer to 6:05. I'm awaiting an answer from Josh on this...hopefully he comes through.

Thanks for the great post and advice. Your contributions to this board were one of the reasons I stick around and upgraded my membership. It's been said lots already...but family first, always.

They look to be the same. Silix's end links look a bit rougher on finish than Andrew's...but otherwise the same. Either way...they are likely the same quality, and the bezel alignment is off. If you get lucky, the bezel insert will come correct...but even that is now debateable apparently: SEE HERE. Either way...if you look at the Dealer Reviews section, you will find both dealers are good. Andrew and Josh (Perfect-Clones) are SUPER FAST on email (from minutes to a couple hours response time) response, service, etc and really stand by their products. They are great for first time buyers who are impatient and essentially want their hands held a bit/a lot. You'll get a tracking number within day of ordering. Silix is very reliable too, but doesn't work weekends so email turnaround is slower, and generally has around 12-24hrs email response time...so this can seem like a long time. You might not get a tracking number at all...or it may take a week. Shipping will be slower even though it will still be by EMS...but he's generally way cheaper, supportive and reliable. That's really the issue between the 2 offerings you listed...the dealer, and not the watch.

The swap of a New Asian 7750 to Swiss ETA 7750 is not a straight swap because of the hands. Both seconds hands need to be replaced as well as the center second tube. I'm not sure of the dial.

BobM...the SFSO doesn't use an A7750 movement...but either the Asian 2813 or ETA 2824 (no chrono functions). The Swiss ETA SFSO adds in AR and saphire crystal on top of the Swiss movement. You can decide if that's important to you. Many argue the AR is not needed on the white face as much...others swear by their AR...especially on the blue or black face. I would be inclined to add in a different watch for a different look. The Omega SMP Chrono is a beautiful watch...there are great photo comparisons online...but, the watch has inconsistent water resistence. Gioarmani had great success with his out of the box...mine leaked. Either way...if away from water, the Omega is great. If Bond can wear a Planet Ocean or SMP with a tux or suit...hey...why can't you wear it casually or in a suit. As to other blue faced watches...look up By-Tor's review of the Omega SMP Chrono vs. Tag Link Chrono. I never thought much of the Tag Link Chrono until after that review. The Rollie Noob/Beginmariner is always the classic choice too...sporty, mostly accurate out of the box, cheap and reasonably understated...this has a black face or the LV with green bezel.

I think he must have just come off a massive bust shutting down a big counterfeit watch ring...and thought he would stop at the gym for a quick workout before dropping the watch in the evidence locker back at the station.

The options are limited without special tools. Some have used knives or screwdrivers under the insert by where the pearl is to pry the insert off. RISKY. You can scratch the insert, bezel, etc...and possibly bend the insert depending on how it's glued down. Some have used some tool to pry off the bezel itself (protect the case!!!)...and in doing so...some have bent their bezel as they pried too hard. The proper method is to use a bezel replacement tool...but that has added cost for a specialty tool.

Hey piratedzeus...we seem to watch the same threads. HAH.

Welcome aboard...stick around...read the forums...use the search button...and all will be revealed. You will find people here are generally really helpful, and there are some REALLY knowledgeable people around to answer all your questions. I'm pretty new at this as well...but finding it quite interesting to read all the news and have questions answered.As to your question, to make a long story short...this is not what is referred to as a super rep. Super reps are generally considered the ones that are considerably closer to a gen than the others. Reps considered "super reps" are the Breitling SFSO, IWC Cousteau Diver, HBB, Omega UPO, and I'm not sure which others. The difference in price you are looking at between the low priced and high priced models happens to do with the movement used in the watches. Most $300 chrono reps use an Asian (or New Asian) Valjoux 7750 movement. The Zigmeisterzumba (a superstar poster here and fountain of horlogical knowledge) has done a breakdown of this movement (full details are available to RWG Supporters aka VIPs who pay extra to have their memberships upgraded to support the board and in return get access to additional areas of the board). The bottom line is that earlier version of the Asian 7750 were flaky...but the New Asian 7750 is pretty good. With proper service, The Zigmeister says the 7750 should run a long time!A local watchmaker here says the New Asian 7750 movement is pretty good, but the gears are rougher than a true Swiss 7750.The $999 rep uses a Swiss 7750. Undeniably a better movement out of the box as the New Asian's generally arrive a little dry on the oiling and generally should be serviced around the 9 month mark to avoid dry gears running metal-on-metal. The Swiss ETA 7750 movement new, blister sealed from ETA can cost around $600 CDN...but a refurbished (generally referred to as new) NOS or equivalent can be had as low via group-buys for $275 USD (remember...this is just for the movement...no labour...no watch). A New Asian 7750 is around $60 for the movement. Hope this helps.

Are the reps waterproof? Mine wasn't...see this post.

Does anybody know who has best reps?

What do they look like? I couldn't see them...I was blinded when the post opened.

Yeah...a bit of a disappointment...but...at the cost of a properly aligned bezel, and an HEV that can't fall out even without applying industrial epoxy (at least as far as I can tell), I'm not too disappointed. I can wear a Swatch if I want to swim. As to the Noobmariners...I will just do a combat test on that one...straight into the water. I figure if it leaks...then I'll get the Steelfish. There's no point paying for too much testing and maintenance given the price of the Noob.

I came back from the watchmaker, and the results are contained as an edit to the original post to make it easier to see the results with the original question.

From what I've read, there's not a lot you can do to waterproof the watch beyond the obvious. Some have decased the thing and epoxied the HEV and I'm not going down that path...yet. The HEV doesn't seem to just be a straight unscrew so I can't do anything from the OUTSIDE of the watch. The chrono pushers are going to be the obvious weakpoint, and there's not much you can do with those, other than what's already there out-of-the-box...so I think I've done what can be done, and there's no reason to have it waterproofed again. Bill wrote a great post on waterproof testing that can be found HERE. The article essentially outlines that if it's done right, there should be no penetration even at low (high) atmospheres...just raise the watch out of the water while the bubbles are coming out and before equalizing the pressure. I figure, The Zigmeister recommends that new Asian 7750s should be serviced around the 9month mark. So, if I was smart (but I'm more impatient than smart)...I would actually book my servicing with him, and before the servicing just go swimming. If it leaks...hey...it's being serviced anyways.

Hey...if you can't annoy people on watch forums about watch questions...who can you annoy? Spouses and non-hor friends? Thanks for the info...that's great. Too bad I'm paying a lot more for the WP test than $15...but I pay for convenience to my office. I'll post results for sure...hopefully pictures as well.

Yeah...his review is what inspired me: Gioarmani's SMP Chrono Comparison and Waterproof Reference I have no idea what I can do to the rep to improve water resistance. I guess I'm just hoping the chrono pushers out-of-the-box, are good enough for at least swimming...if not, I'll have to switch to the Noob.

I received my beautiful SMP Chrono from Josh a couple weeks back and it's awesome. I opened it up and greased the gasket with silicone grease and tightened the caseback down with a Jaxa wrench (much tighter than it came in the mail). I tried to unscrew the HEV right off so I could try and stick some grease around any threads or gaskets that I saw, but it seems to stop unscrewing after a few turns, but not enough that I can fit anything in to apply any grease. I tried to unscrew the crown to apply whatever grease I could there, and I can't unscrew the crown enough to stick anything in to apply grease. I brought that watch down to a watchmaker and asked if he would test it for waterproofing, and he said he has had such bad experiences testing replicas, that he refused. I said that this is not a regular replica, but a good one, and upon examination of the watch, he was quite impressed. He said the cheap reps usually just glue on the casebacks and HEVs and you can see glue spilling out of the seam. After checking that the back could be tightened and opened easily, he was more willing to test it. So, I have an appointment tomorrow to have it tested. I'll try and post pictures. The bottom line is...aside from greasing the caseback gasket, and tightening the HEV and crown down...this will be right out of the box. I'm hoping there aren't any embarrassing huge leaks on the chrono pushers. Does anybody have any other suggestions aside from opening the watch, removing the guts and glueing down the HEV post from inside? I'll try and post pictures and results. ================================= UPDATED WATERPROOF TESTING RESULTS ================================= Well...some get lucky...and some don't. I brought my watch to the watchmaker and had him test it in a Bergeon tester. He pumped it up to 3atm, and there was a stream of bubbles coming from the 2 chrono pushers. He opened the watch up, dropped the movement, put some sealant at the 2 chrono pushers and re-ran the test. He pumped it up to 3atm again...and a smaller stream of bubbles appeared...but still... LEAKAGE!!! Interestingly enough, there was no leakage at the crystal nor the caseback (no surprise), and there was no leakage at the winding crown or the HEV (happy to know...but not too surprised given they are screwdown units). I don't have pictures unfortunately. So, some were able to get 300'...I'm not one of them. That's kind of a bummer...but hey...it was entertaining. I have to tell you, in spite of the sad results, it was worth every penny in entertainment value. The anticipation of watching the pumping, initial scanning for leakage, and then the pressure releasing...wondering...waiting...wondering more.... It was like waiting for my first rep to arrive in the mail...really quite exciting. So...now I have to get another watch to swim in. My noobmariner should arrive this week...and hopefully that one will work alright. I wanted the Steelfish...but it's too big on my wrist.