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The NDtrading dials tend to vary a bit in color. Sometimes, they get the color pretty close. I have 1 that has nice cream colored index markers & they are almost the right size too. But on all the NDtrading DRSD dials I have seen, both the index markers & crown are too narrow for my taste.

Thanks, this is the closest I have seen an aftermarket DRSD dial come to matching 1 of the gens. The print quality is on par with the best NDtrading dials. But, unlike the NDtrading, they got the crown & text nearly dead-on. No Wild Wild West style fonts on this 1. I just wish they had used a more natural looking white or cream colored lume for the index markers instead of that weird brown that all of these aftermarket dial makers like to use. As it is the dial is passable, but if they had done the index markers in white, the dial could have fooled me. I emailed Ziggy last week to see if he can Ziggyify (whiten) them, but I guess he is still on vacation or not answering mail. This is definitely a dial that requires The Master's touch. I bought the dial on ebay from a relatively new seller -- 'preciouswatches'. At the time, I think he had 27 sold items, but he got 100% positive feedback & my gut told me he was legit, so I took a chance & it worked out well.

Actually, I agree with you for the no dates. They are so simple that it gives them a little magic. The dial is a NDTrading. I got the watch from JustAsGood. I didn't yet post a pictorial as a gen dot needs to be installed. It will happen soon

Just to keep the story alive, I would definitely be in for 1 of the NDtrading 1665 DRSD cases at a reasonable price. That is, something below $500. At the price Phong is currently selling it for, I would/will stick with my MBW. The Vietnamese cases have more accurate looking backsides & their (working) HEV is more accurately located slightly above dead-center (it is dead center on MBWs). But their CGs, while nice, still need modding to match a gen DRSD. All in all, I think the pluses of the Vietnamese cases exceed the MBW's minuses, but not for $1,200+. Note -- I am aware of 2 different versions of the Vietnamese DRSD cases. 1 is the earlier 'Patent Pending' & the other is the 'Rolex Patent'. Personally, I think the latter is nicer & a bit less rare so it would raise a few less (knowledgeable) eyebrows if worn 'in the wild', as some of us are known to do.

I think you guys are crazy that would go after a vietnamese 1665 case, given that we can get pretty good ones from MBK. I am psyched about the idea of going after a GMT. The parts for these seem more readily available in the used market. They're cheaper, too. I am not too optimistic, as it seems like there would be a lot of work in actually tracking down a supplier. Maybe Phong has the market on lock-down. I doubt it, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're difficult to obtain considering how hard the MBW's are, and they're available through retail channels. My opinion of the NDtrading dials is a little different than Freddy's, although I would say that he's a much more qualified person to be giving suggestions on this. My feeling is that even if the NDtrading dials are less accurate than the MBW dials, the quality of the dials themselves are much better. Ultimately that's what's more important to me than minor accuracy issues- the overall quality of the dial in terms of texture, dial print quality, etc..

Actually the 5508 takes the 6mm crown and tube- originally 24-600-0 and a 24-6010-0 tube maybe. IT has the dash under the Rolex crown logo. You can go with the modern replacement- 24-602-0 and case tube 24-6020-0 if you can't find the old crown and tube. The crystal is about impossible to find- T-16, and can easily run $250-300. My watchmaker put a AF 300 crystal on my 5508. I went the same NDtrading route and put a 1520 from an Air King in mine. Hands came from Clarks- used the gold hands for the 1500 series Rolex movement- then you have to paint them to match the dial- still working on that. Hope to be done in a week or so!

Ok, got a Ref5500 ($910 was that bad?) Found all the other parts from NDTrading. The 5508 case, crystal, dial, hands and tube total $1240. The total is $2150, not bad I think. I was told that the Brevet 8mm crown ($400) would not fit the 5508 6mm case, is this correct? What type of crystal is used? Any help would be appreciated.

The printing quality of these NDtrading dials is very good, better than the MBW dials, which is 1 of the reasons I purchased 1. But, as I said, each aftermarket dial has its own set of inaccuracies & each owner must decide which dial has the least amount of objectionable sins. For me, between the MBW & NDtrading, I went with the MBW. My thinking is that if you closely inspect each dial through a loupe, the NDtrading will win because of its clearer & more precise printing quality. But when viewed normally, from a few feet away (or the distance between 2 closely spaced tables in an intimate restaurant, which is the benchmark I use), I think the MBW's more accurately sized crown & index markers give the viewer a more gen-like presentation. The new dial I posted earlier gets all of the text fonts/sizes nearly dead-on (both of the other dials got these wrong for different reasons). It gets the crown nearly dead-on (the NDtrading crown is too narrow, the MBW too imprecisely printed). It gets the date window nearly dead-on (the MBW is slightly too small). Its only serious flaw is that its 6 & 9 index markers are still slightly too narrow (though not as obviously wrong as they are on the NDtrading dial) & the lume color is still too artificial looking (if they had only used white, I could easily widen the 6 & 9 index markers & the dial would be a winner.......but, as always, they get at least 1 or 2 obvious things wrong).

Freddy, I may have asked you this before I can't remember, but it could be useful in the context of those that are interested in replacing their MBW dial with an aftermarket- could you take a look at the flaws on this dial? This one is an aftermarket like the NDtrading, but I'm not sure if it's the exact same as theirs or not. I've found that the aftermarket dials, while incorrect in some of the 'fidelity' ways that you were describing, just look way better in terms of their overall quality. I'm talking about thinness of fonts, the coronet, the spacing of letters, the texture of the dial, etc.. I admit I have a hard time getting a good shot of the dial.. Before the obvious point about the script font being too western, I've seen two versions of this dial in the genuine world, one was more typical script, but I have seen a genuine dial with font that looked closer to this. Should've saved the photo...

NDtrading on right Although the fonts on the NDtrading dial are generally more accurate than the MBW, the NDtrading suffers from a crown & 6 & 9 index markers that are too narrow and some of the lettering is irregularly spaced (example - look at the 1st 3 letters in chronometer). No aftermarket dial that I have found gets everything right, so you have to choose your set of poisons. For my money, comparing either the MBW or NDtrading dials to the aftermarket dial I posted in my 1st post, I think the 1st dial is the most accurate of the 3. Here are 2 gens for reference My current MBW DRSD

Freddy, that is an awesome post. With regard to the dial, I'm surprised that the NDtrading dials aren't better than the MBW ones. I have what I think is an aftermarket dial in my 1665 that I would swear is better in objective terms than the MBW dial- but you're much more aware of the merits of these dials than I am. If it's possible to find a good aftermarket DRSD dial, I'll swap out the dial at the same time I'm doing the crystal.

I agree, mostly. In the hands of a competent modder, the MBW case (with the addition of a working Hev) is so accurate & well constructed that only the most knowledgeable Rolex specialist would even know what to look for to see the very minor differences between the MBW and Viet Nam (or gen) cases. Certainly, the average Rolex owner or 'man on the street' is unlikely to be able to call this out The 1 item I take exception with is the caseback since the Viet Nam part is noticeably more accurate than the MBW. With a bit of sanding/polishing, I doubt that even a specialist would be able to call this part out by sight alone (Note the deeper/wider engraving & proper location of the dot between the 'T' in Patent & the 'E' in Valve) Here is my modded MBW DRSD caseback for reference (Since these pics were taken, the end links have been swapped for gen 580s) But, at $450 (Phong's price), I do not see THAT much of an improvement over the MBW caseback. However, when the Viet Nam sellers come to their senses & start selling these parts for a more reasonable price ($200 or less), I would swap casebacks in a heartbeat. The dials continue to be the weak part of the equation & since the dial is the most important part of a watch, it is difficult to rationalize spending around $1,000+ for a case that is only few percent improved over the MBW. Long ago, Avitt convinced me to go with the MBW dial over an NDtrading dial & I continue to pat myself on the back for listening to him. However, I have since found an improved dial that, while still not perfect, corrects many of the sins of the NDtrading dial which make it, I believe, a quite suitable replacement (and improvement) for the original MBW DRSD dial. The only obvious flaws on this dial are the still slightly too narrow 6 & 9 index markers & questionable color of the lume. On the other hand, the crown, date window & text all look within spec to me

I was recently quoted a price of $800 by MQ on a 5508 case- the same as NDtrading. Since NDT is here in the US, I went w/ them- no customs issues. I do agree that a better case is a good idea. The best that NDtrading has right now is $1000 for a 1665 case (not the DRSD case- which was $1250- the difference would be the case back, I guess). Anyway, the big drawback to the MBW case is the non-working HE valve and you might have to do a little bit of filing to fit the 1575 movt in there. Oh, and file the crown guards, which is no big deal. I figure if you're going to go to the trouble of putting a Rolex movt in there, it's worth it to spend the extra bucks to get the better case, etc. Otherwise, just stick w/ the MBW/ETA and add the crown/tube, and bezel insert, etc. I just feel like putting a Rolex movt in there warrants the extra expense. My 5508 w/ 1520 movt is running $2200 and I'm not there yet!

Bluebite take a look for a thread I recently made about trying to organize a possible group buy for some of these vietnamese cases being talked about. The reason why we're working on that route is because the NDtrading mark-up on the wholesale price is expensive enough to make it a difficult base to justify for those of us on a budget.

Not necessarily- if you look at repaustria's 1655, he fitted his with an ETA movement. I would be intrigued with both a 1680 and 1665 from NDtrading, but considering the community has had these available in the form of MBK's. I would imagine that a high % of the people that would be interested in a vietnamese case would already have a 1665/1680 from MBK. That's the only catch. I could be wrong about that, though. Hopefully it wouldn't matter, and people could choose from the possibilities listed on Phong's website. The idea of building a watch from the ground up doesn't scare me as much any more.

Wow, I wasn't even thinking that there would be any interest in this, and I laughed when I saw Oli replied cause I figured I should've just put it in a PM because that would be the end of it. DVN, that's awesome if you're able to speak vietnamese and have friends who live there. I wonder if, with a little bit of work, we might be able to track down the source of these things directly. Considering the mark-up on the MBW's, and considering that NDtrading sells primarily to a genuine owner market, I am hoping that we may discover that they're affordable, and if so, the possibility of branching into uncharted territory is wide-open.

I was noticing recently that there is a greater number of members who are branching out from the conventional channels through which most of us have conventionally sourced parts. There are other options out there for those of us who are transfixed by the idea of being able to create projects on rep bases on something other than just the MBK's. The only models that MBK offers that are good for this purpose are the 1680 and 1665. I know there are others, but they're variations on those two basic models. I am curious if there's a way to arrange a wholesale supplier of these for those of us who are looking for more value than what they're seeing on the websites or on ebay. I don't know if there's enough demand, or whether the folks that have access to these would even be able or willing to hook us up here. I know that they'd be more expensive than an MBK- you're paying for what you get, I'm sure. I just don't think we fall into the same category of folks that they generally rely on for their business. I think for the most part, they target the genuine Rolex owners who are looking at these reps as a fall-back option. The point being that the majority of their business probably comes from genuine Rolex owners. As a result, I think they price them accordingly. I just wonder whether we could arrange something through Phong for something that we wouldn't have access to more usually...like the Tudors that he supposedly arranged, but something that would be more popular, like an Explorer case. It seems as though we may have neglected this option due to the price of their cases as well as the availability of MBK's that are souced more cheaply and easily.

I don't know how anyone affords those bloody NDtrading or vietnam cases, etc.. They're so expensive. I would kill to have a 1655 rep or one of their 1665 reps, but they're just too much money for me at this point. It seems to me like there's been a broadening out of options for rep cases to build on. I wish there were a way that we could get them at a discount to their general market value to non-replica aware people who are obviously going to be price gouged as a result.

It looks like 1 of the older MBW dials. Not an NDtrading dial (at right).

Ok, so yesterday I received a beautiful MBW DRSD from another member. It was in such great shape that I felt it might be difficult to to any aging to the case or dial. Well, the Mrs. and kids were gone today so I thought I would start the modding. First thing to do was remove the movement. Of course it had the standard 2836-2 in it. My first observation was that the datewheel was perfectly aligned on ALL DAYS. It was REALLY going to be hard to do this with the 2846 and UBI that I had sitting here. I then drilled the spring bar holes. I had recently bought a drill press and the proper bits, so this was pretty straightforward. I actually drilled the holes so tight that I ended up polishing the spring bar tips so that they would glide all the way out and nearly sit flush with the outside of the lugs. I also installed a genuine tube and crown. Crown lines up perfectly and this was the first one that I actually re-tapped the tube hole. She fits as tight as............. I removed the bezel insert, bleached it for about an hour and used some steel wool to age the edges before snapping it back in. YES I used a couple drops of gorilla glue just to be sure it didnt come out prematurely, but I really dont think it was necessary. Now on to the movement swap. I first noticed something that concerned me with the original 2836. It appeared that there was epoxy all the way around the movement on the spacer ring. After removing the hands and trying to pull the dial off from the usual spots, it was obvious that the dial was glued on. Using an exacto knife I was able to relove the dial cleanly. AND WHAT DO I FIND??? A dial that didnt have any feet, but originally had feet in the position of 12 and 7. ALSO, the blank was stamped SINGER and had a cut out for a gear. My question is, are all MBW's this way??? I have a few others that I have never bothered to remove the dial from, but I know that they have dial feel for an ETA. Is this one of the NDTrading dial??? Swapping the movements consisted of installing the UBI datewheel that came with the movement. I used 1/2 dial dots at 4 positions to attach it. It took MANY tries, but eventually I got it centered for all dates. Then I used fast setting epoxy to adhere the dial spacer to the movement (3 dots spaced around the movement) and then I used 4 dots of epoxy on the spacer ring to adhere the dial. Putting the hands on and putting the movement back in the watch went without issue. I didnt age the dial simply because it looks pretty good the way it is. I then realized that the stem that came with the 2846 was different than the one from the 2846. I had not seen this before, arent they the same??? SO, I had to spend another hour grinding down the 2846 stem so that it was the proper size. This took about 8 different installs and removals because since they were different, and I had only one stem I couldnt afford to cut it too short. All that was left was opening the center tube of the rivited band to accept the gen spring bars and putting the bracelet back on. My wife is off with the kids and has my digicam, so I will post pics later. I would LOVE answers concerning the SINGER stamped dia with 1570 feet removed. Thanks all, and pics will be up soon.

Ziggy -- Thank you for taking the time to take & post the new pics. These shed new light on the subject & only enforce what I thought already: Gen movement (impossible to tell whether the bridge & plate signings are original or were added by someone like Phong without having the watch appraised by Rolex, but I will be positive & assume the movement is 100% gen), NDtrading dial & aftermarket case/caseback (lug scratches aside (scratches can be added in a matter of minutes), the engravings between the lugs look, to me, to be of recent vintage). Since a watch fitted with an aftermarket dial would be rejected outright by Rolex, why not do the next best thing - post a few of these pics of the watch on TZ & poll some of the experts there for their opinion. If Dowling & a few of the other senior experts give this watch the thumbs-up, that would be good enough for me. Ziggy, are you game?

I'll just touch on these points: My 5508 and my 6205 have no "watchmaker" notes engraved into the casebacks, weird I know, but they are clean as you can see in the pics. I am not trying to prove I am right, since I have nothing to gain. And I willingly posted all the pics of the area's that may help determin what this is, or isn't. I didn't show the back of the dial, because it's identical to the NDTrading one someone posted, it's identical which means aftermarket. As for the rest, for sure the movement is genuine Rolex, "M" seems to be authentic as well, the rest appears to be genuine, but I have no way of knowing...and I am not sure if these pics will prove it one way or the other. I have nothing to be careful about concerning this watch, it's not mine, what the owner does once he gets it back, is not my problem or concern. But I doubt if I will ever see one in the shop again soon But I have to say, that this dial of mine... Looks a lot like this dial on your genuine one... RG

EDITED, so it doesn't sound "harsh"...please note I am playing the Devil's Advocate and presenting pics of the points raised, it's all in good FUN and not meant to OFFEND anyone or their opinion or anything else. Ok, I'm awake and here are the rest of the pictures I am willing to share. What I have tried to do, is focus on the points brought up as area's of contention, meaning that these items "could" be faked. I would like to add the following: other than POTR and myself, it doesn't seem as if anyone here has ever held, let alone seen a genuine vintage Miligauss. I searched for 2+ hours on the internet, and came up with nothing that would help me make an informed decision on this watch either way...nothing positive, or negative. Based on these facts, if you are prepared to state "It's a fake, anyone can engrave/stamp, whatever..." PLEASE support your "opinion" with facts. Otherwise your opinion is just that - an opinion with no facts - and why should I or anyone on RWG take your word and opinion as the truth over any other opinion? Simply because it's negative? Or because this is a "rare" watch and it's impossible to find it? Remember my 5508? Isn't that a "rare" watch...but I found one, and have it in my possession... So with that, I offer the following all in a good spirit of fun and interest, and playing the devil's advocate. Here are the main points I noted in these 79 posts, that could prove one way or the other the true nature of this watch. Point 1 "The letter "M" on the movement...anyone can engrave it..." Ok, so lets compare and look at the "M" in close detail, and compare it to the other letters we know are in fact engraved by Rolex on the bridges etc. Here is the "M" that identifies this movement as a Miligauss movement. Here is other lettering that we know is genuine Rolex, comparing the shape, patina, colour, depth, style, etc, I see no differences at all...do you? Dial side of movement engraving. Point 2 "Anyone can engrave the case (back)...that' easy to do" The caseback is NOT ENGRAVED, it's stamped, just like the genuine Rolex's. Does that in itself make it Genuine? Maybe not, but it does raise some questions. As for the comment, "the caseback is CLEAN, that proves it's a FAKE", I disagree, and I offer the following pictures. The 6205 belonged to my Uncle, a Navy Diver who used it for 30 years. The 5508 belonged to a hobby diver, who bought the watch new in 1962 and dove with it until 1984-85... Do these casebacks look "dirty" to you, or worn out or whatever??? No they are protected and inside the watchcase. Here is my GENUINE 6205 and 5508, compare these stampings to the Miligauss caseback. And now the STAMPED Miligauss. Engraved?? No look at the rounded edges of the metal near the numerals and letters... And of course lets not forget the outside view, looks worn out to me from years of use...don't see that on the NDTrading site, or Jewelleryandwatch cases... Point 3 "Movement and spacer and Faraday cage are fake..." Ok, so explain the following: fit, finish, and overall look, and note that the spacer ring goes on from the FRONT over the movement, is secured with movement screws, and then the dial seats on it and totally encloses the movement in the Faraday cage Stem location viewed through the ring into the keyless works. Point 4 "The LUGS" Here are various different views. Simply stating "It's a fake, look at the shape of the lugs..." means nothing, back it up with pics of a 6541 Miligauss from the same angles, so we can do our own comparison. Wear marks from years of end links rubbing the case. This can't be faked or happen overnight. Does that make it "real", no of course not, but it is an important point to note. Point 5 The ever popular between the legs picture...oops, I mean between the "lugs" of course... First up for comparison I offer a picture of my 1957 "6205 Brevet +" Rollie... that "5" sure looks the same... And now the Miligauss. Same? Different? Fake? If these markings are fake, how do you explain the caseback? If your prepared to say: "Caseback is genuine, Case is FAKE", then why are you not willing to accept that the dial has been replaced?? Of course no one would separate a dial from a watch, but people swap casebacks all the time...doesn't make sense does it? I think everyone agrees that the dial is questionable and bears an uncanny resemblance to the NDTrading one. Does that matter? My 5508 replacement bracelet was bought as a "Genuine" used one in the early '80's, bought in London UK no less... It was obviously not the correct one for the watch, so I send it to Ubi for analysis..."FAKE" is what he came back with. How could that be? Fake Rolex bracelets in the early '80's...maybe I guess, I don't know, but weird stuff can and does happen. That's it from me. I have nothing else to offer. And as stated before, I don't own the watch, and don't care either way what it is, or isn't. What I do know is what you see here, and how it all fits together and the finish of the parts. I look forward to the comments, and of course, your supporting data for your "Opinion" on the nature of the watch. If you can't present facts, then it's simply "your opinion" and considering that I am holding the watch in my hand, your opinion is no more valuable than mine is, because I have no supporting data either way that it's genuine, franken, or totally fake. What do I think? After looking at this and photographing the points I show above, here's my opinion, based on my supporting information I presented above. Caseback GENUINE Movement GENUINE Faraday cage GENUINE Hands GENUINE Case...not sure... but the engraving does look very similar to my 6205 Submariner... if it's fake, where did the caseback come from? Dial - Redial NDTrading Thanks for reading. RG

I must say that this is one of the most interesting stories to be seen here in a while. If I may join with my 2 cents, I am agreeing with this being a franken (for now). I have a few resons for saying this. 1. The dial - we all know of the variances in vintage rollies, both Nanuq and myself have GMT Maters that have dials that supposedly "never existed" but have recently been verified as genuine, so there is no suprise in the variation in Milgauss dials as well. Still, this dial looks way too close to the NDTrading dial (notice how far away the hour dots are to the minute markers in The Zigmeister's pictures vs. Timezone pictures vs. NDTrading). Even then, I spotted one picture on Antiquorum of a 6541 with dot hour markers closer to the minute markers. But, in NO case that I could find do the minute or second hands extend beyond the outer minute track as shown on the one in The Zigmeister's pictures. Also, as was stated by others, the coronet at 12 does not look right. So, I am saying the dial has been replaced with aftermarket. 2. Why replace the dial - if this watch is all original and had been sitting for 30 years or more, the original dial would still be in there. It is possible that a dial replacement could have happened at some point years ago, but I don't think that even a replacement from Rolex would look quite like this one. 3. Where is the bezel - a dial would survive quite nicely provided the case was properly sealed, but the bezel is the one thing on a watch that would catch all kinds of hell over the years and would most likely show fading, scratches, possibly dents. Unless of couse this was a safe queen in which the bezel would be pristine and on the watch or The Zigmeister had not got far enough in the assembly of the watch before taking the picture. Now I say its a franken "for now" until we see other evidence since weird things do happen and this may just be one of those cases. In the end, short of having Rolex itself authenticate this one (and if I bought this one on the assumption that it is real, thats where I would send it) all we say here is speculation. The Milgauss is one of the vintage models that MUST have some sort of authentication either in the form of original paperwork or verification from Rolex since these models are just getting too high in value, and as was said earlier that amount of money will make folks do shady things. With all this said, I hope it can be found that this piece is found to be authentic, especially if it was purchased as so. If not, it says volumes of the ability and skill of todays modders. Either way, looking at these pictures, you all got me craving a rep of this one now

Yes, almost anything is possible with vintage Rolex, but the possibilities end at aftermarket dials from NDtrading. Having an NDtrading dial in this watch eliminates any possibility of the watch being genuine. And it just stretches the bounds of credulousness to imagine someone owning a gen Milgauss movement & a genuine Milgauss case, but not having the gen Milgauss dial. I mean how could you possibly misplace your gen Milgauss dial? As for fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases, as long as you shave out a small circular section on the inside of the case to fit the movement's locking screw, the 1570 from my 1601 will fit into my MBW DRSD case quite nicely. More? How many of us have made poorly machined DW cases accept a V72 so well that it seems like the case was custom made for the movement, and we do it with simple hand tools (dremel, files, sandpaper). Where there is a modder with the will, there is always a way. And if you need any more reassurance that aftermarket cases can be made to fit gen movements, a quick visit to Phong's website (jewelryandwatch.com) should allay any remaining ambivalence you still have. This guy made a business out of turning generic gen movements into signed Rolex movements & fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases. He says he is even (and I am quoting directly from Phong's website) 'able to making new watch case by your specification 18kt yellow or white solid gold, or re-case for high grade vintage watches movement'. And all of Phong's watches have the same issues that Ziggy's watch has. What does that tell you?