What price a 1:1 case set?

[JohnG]

This will be the mother of all group buys! $30,000 - WOW!

[alligoat]

At $200 x 250 each, you're actually talking about $50,000.00!

BK is coming out with the 2824 in a YM case- correct crown position, pretty close to 1:1. WM9v2 has gotten pretty close on the sub case. If you took it to the next level w/ a 2824-2 movt, you'd almost be there.

Sean at etaswiss has the 16610 case, supposedly accepts a gen movt. 1:1, I don't know, we haven't seen anyone with it yet here and it is too expensive ($600).

But at what point do you piss off the rlx cops?

[Demsey]

Somehow this chain:

OK, let's start calculations.

1. Setting up the goal - let's say "The Best One" and Tona.

2. Ordering CAD drawings for every part, it's not a big problem.

3. Ask every member who willing to buy finishing product to pay 33% downpayment of...let's say $200 (final price).

4. Place orders on the factories, who make cases, dials, hands, crystals, etc. I know a few very good factories in HK who make excellent parts.

5. Find the source for Asian clone ETA and Shanghai A7750, not a problem, they'll provide top notch QC for such an order.

6. Find 2 skilled watchsmiths there, who will do assembling. 200-300 watches not a big quantity, will be done in a week.

7. Find the safest way to deliver finished product (all together) to USA.

It's just a thoughts, could be corrected, if needed. If we'll find enough members who will agree to participate - why not start it right away?

and this comment:

Aye, remind me how are those custom RWG watches are coming along, Gran? We getting nearer a shipping date yet?

Spells out doom, like Nostradamus spelled out, umm, d-o-o-m.

Then again, if 'offshore' were at the helm, well, OK then. I don't believe he has a penchant for Acura and he spent his airfare to China, not Serbia. So, we have that going for us. Which is nice.

[earth2172]

Hello all,

knowing well the situation, let me jump in and reply some points talked here..

Due to the potential numbers involved, profits from a case retailing at US$200 would be significant & certainly more than sufficient to offset both the development & small production run costs (if even relevant).

Development cost is not negligeable amount. in fact to build a 1:1 case you need to do a 3D CAD scan and pay for a mold. In the chinese rep industry, to my knowlede, nobody uses 3D CAD scan, these chinese factories all work by 'hand" with callipers... And a quality mold of this size should be no less than $2,000 USD. Of course, I even don't count if something goes wrong with the mold and you have to re-work it until be perfect. What I want to say is that this task is not an easy one. it's time consuming, cost money, and we not sure that the final result will be perfect. people must realize that...

The only real stumbling block I can see is Rolex (& any other gen makers whose repped 1:1 cases begin flooding the marketplace). The production of a true 1:1 rep Rolex case would test my belief that the rep factory bosses have arrangements with the gens that allow them to conduct their business in a mostly hands-off fashion as long as they are not producing exact 1:1 copies. In addition, I suspect, also, that if people here (at RWG) were involved in the production of such 1:1 cases (considering the knowledgebase available), it would likely spark an arms race with others (like NDtrading, etc, who produce 1:1.1 cases), wherein they would immediately jump on the 1:1 bandwagon, much to the chagrin (or joy, if you are a gen lawyer) of the gens' lawyers.

I know some factories that make mistakes "on purpose" but others try to make 1:1 job but they don't have access to the right equipement (3D CAD scan) to do it correctly...

finally if someone comes with a 1:1 case, it doesn't mean that the others will follow immediately. No way ! it will take time as they must change the way they work, they must find the correct equipement who is not available in China (3D CAD scan) and they must make the mold (at least 3 weeks from order to delivery). it's not an overnight job...

Edited September 9, 2009 by earth2172

[earth2172]

OK, let's start calculations.

1. Setting up the goal - let's say "The Best One" and Tona.

2. Ordering CAD drawings for every part, it's not a big problem.

3. Ask every member who willing to buy finishing product to pay 33% downpayment of...let's say $200 (final price).

4. Place orders on the factories, who make cases, dials, hands, crystals, etc. I know a few very good factories in HK who make excellent parts.

5. Find the source for Asian clone ETA and Shanghai A7750, not a problem, they'll provide top notch QC for such an order.

6. Find 2 skilled watchsmiths there, who will do assembling. 200-300 watches not a big quantity, will be done in a week.

7. Find the safest way to deliver finished product (all together) to USA.

It's just a thoughts, could be corrected, if needed. If we'll find enough members who will agree to participate - why not start it right away?

1. no comment

2. right but costly and must be done very very very carefully

3. hmmm I don't know if it's a good business model... I prefer to see the product first, and pay after. Or at least see a real 1:: sample before sending any money

4. Tha't a big mistake for the case ! if a project like that will happen, it must be done at a factory having no relation with the rep business to not see everybody every other rep factory taking advantage of our hard work and making easy money from it...

5. another misconception. first no asian movement factory will sell direct to you without a minimum order quantity of 1000pcs. and second, they will not change their QC for one order, except if the order is at least 100,000pcs...

6. I agree

7. separate shipement (1 item per delivery), that's the only way

[Demsey]

Barring this, or even factoring it in:

if something goes wrong with the mold and you have to re-work it until be perfect.

This:

a quality mold of this size should be no less than $2,000 USD

Seems very reasonable if this:

At $200 x 250 each, you're actually talking about $50,000.00!

Is a realistic, projected net?

Shoot, every dealer here must each eat 2K a week in rip offs, returns and parts grata to valued customers alone.

Calipers? Good lord that is impressive. I only thought the Russians still engineered like that.

[earth2172]

Demsey,

your right, seems a very reasonnable project

even if the mold cost will be higher than what I said as I forgot that this project needs two molds, not one (for case AND for caseback). So let's say around $3,000 USD for case tooling fee. I don't know if the bezel must also be done or if an original one can do the job (depends on price of course)

the other stuff, dial, hands are small amount

Edited September 9, 2009 by earth2172

[Demsey]

Demsey,

your right, seems a very reasonnable project

even if the mold cost will be higher than what I said as I forgot that this project needs two molds, not one (for case AND for caseback). So let's say around $3,000 USD for case tooling fee. I don't know if the bezel must also be done or if an original one can do the job (depends on price of course)

the other stuff, dial, hands are small amount

Yes indeed Earth, I realize this is all hypothetical brain storming at this point, but, a lot really would depend on the make and model of the watch considered. It seems the gist is gravitating, naturally, to the Rolex Submariner? The "Who has the best......?" watch. Even if a true 1:1 could be achieved, the cost of Rolex parts would turn affordable reps into expensive Frankens. On the other hand, if say an Omega watch were considered, then yes, it may be more cost effective to source some genuine of aftermarket pieces already developed, than to bring them along from the ground up, reverse engineered by the rep factories. Certainly affordable replicas are appreciated, but if they would have to be further modded, at premium costs, to suit the afficianado? What's the point?

For what it's worth, and I know this is getting ahead of the thinking here, but a 1:1 Speedmaster case set? A 1:1 Moon Watch with genuine accoutrement? I'd be all in. So would quite a few others I would say.

ps Welcome to the site! Any friend of 'offshore' 's.......................

[Luthier]

Calipers? Good lord that is impressive. I only thought the Russians still engineered like that.

Demsey, Russians shot first artificial Earth satellite into space in 1957, and first man in 1961, and VOSTOK spaceship was made not by sledgehammer.

Earth, I have 2 guitar factories in China, and both use 3D CAD, creating bodies and necks samples in 3D and printing the drawings. Also I personally visited at least 10 factories who make guitars hardware, and they all use 3D CAD. I agree, that best way is not to make cases on rep. factories, it will be in mass production immediately. But it's not a problem to find the factory that can make it. Also, if the case will be casted first - then need to order the mold, but I doubt it will cost $2000. But if the case will be milled from the piece od steel - then no mold needed. Rolex don't cast cases, they mill it. As I said - my "thoughts" can and should be corrected significantly.

[earth2172]

Demsey, Russians shot first artificial Earth satellite into space in 1957, and first man in 1961, and VOSTOK spaceship was made not by sledgehammer.

Earth, I have 2 guitar factories in China, and both use 3D CAD, creating bodies and necks samples in 3D and printing the drawings. Also I personally visited at least 10 factories who make guitars hardware, and they all use 3D CAD. I agree, that best way is not to make cases on rep. factories, it will be in mass production immediately. But it's not a problem to find the factory that can make it. Also, if the case will be casted first - then need to order the mold, but I doubt it will cost $2000. But if the case will be milled from the piece od out steel - then no mold needed. Rolex don't cast cases, they mill it. As I said - my "thoughts" can and should be corrected significantly.

I think we have a missunderstanding

First, I was talking about watches (reps), not guitars.

Second, the key point is 3D CAD scan. Of course everybody uses 3D CAD in China (ProE and Solidworks mainly) and 3D printers but 3D scan is another story. At least in my business field (speakers) and from what I have seen in reps. however, I may be wrong.

and for the production process, IMHO, I think it's not a good idea to mill the case, as the factory will make thousand of them afterwards without you know about it... The right way is to make a mold at company A. Take the mold, give it to Company B for production. You stay at the factory B during the manufacturing and you take back your mold after the batch. Of course, company A and B must be from different city, different business field and not know each other...

my 2cts from 10 years manufacturing experience in China and protection of my designs from copycats

--earth

Edited September 9, 2009 by earth2172

[freddy333]

But at what point do you piss off the rlx cops?

When Rolex (or some of the WIS's on VRF) cannot tell the difference.

[Luthier]

I think we have a missunderstanding

First, I was talking about watches (reps), not guitars.

Second, the key point is 3D CAD scan. Of course everybody uses 3D CAD in China (ProE and Solidworks mainly) and 3D printers but 3D scan is another story. At least in my business field (speakers) and from what I have seen in reps. however, I may be wrong.

and for the production process, IMHO, I think it's not a good idea to mill the case, as the factory will make thousand of them afterwards without you know about it... The right way is to make a mold at company A. Take the mold, give it to Company B for production. You stay at the factory B during the manufacturing and you take back your mold after the batch. Of course, company A and B must be from different city, different business field and not know each other...

my 2cts from 10 years manufacturing experience in China and protection of my designs from copycats

--earth

It make sense. But if you'll need another batch of watches - you'll have to go back to the factory and ask them to cast another 250-500 cases.

I'm not even talking about problems with bubbles in casted metal, common thing in chinese casting process. Besides, milling is much more precise process, than casting, and in case of casting, you should mill cases after removing it from the mold anyway. Even if it's high pressure injection mold - you have to mill each case. I don't think the factory, that has no any relation to rep. business, will run to GZ and offer their (yours) cases to watch factories. So, it's not a problem. Problem is to find the starting capital and proper factories.

[earth2172]

It make sense. But if you'll need another batch of watches - you'll have to go back to the factory and ask them to cast another 250-500 cases.

this is not a problem when you live here, transport is cheap But having your design stolen is much more annoying...

I'm not even talking about problems with bubbles in casted metal, common thing in chinese casting process. Besides, milling is much more precise process, than casting, and in case of casting, you should mill cases after removing it from the mold anyway. Even if it's high pressure injection mold - you have to mill each case.

I did not say it in my post, but after casting, you still must mill the case for last details (threads). So you re absolutely right. And after you need to send it to a polish factory...

I don't think the factory, that has no any relation to rep. business, will run to GZ and offer their (yours) cases to watch factories. So, it's not a problem.

You are kidding ? If no, you don't know chinese factories... Of course they will ! and I can tell you many horror stories that happen to me when I started business here

Problem is to find the starting capital and proper factories.

I fully agree

kind regards

--earth

[offshore]

A-

Are you looking to achieve just a case set only as a final product? Or is a full, complete and working watch the final goal?

Ubi,

I had/have no preconceived ideas of what would be the final product.

Seriously, it was something discussed over lunch, and having seen another project earth is working on,I had/have a lot of confidence in his ability to carry something like this off.

The ingredients seem right.He is already part way down the track with these other projects, and these have already set up contacts, and commenced the learning curve, needed for something like this. He is an engineer, is "on the ground", spends a good part of his time in and around the various suppliers, (is well known, and can negotiate) He has watch experience, speaks passable Chinese, and has an "in house" translator, who also knows one end of a watch from the other.

In the time I spent in the markets, one very noticeable thing, is that a huge majority of the vendors, have little or no knowledge of what they sell. We must accept that the majority could be selling another product tomorrow, with an equal lack of knowledge! They are just turning a buck, and it happens to be watches. Ask a quartz seller to cross reference an item and he would have no idea. Ask a mechanical movement vendor about changes, or modifications to a newly released version...they would be clueless.The best they would know was that it was "new" or " better" But no concept of what may have altered. They, for the most part, just sell "products". (not watch parts per se)

No, this was posted so we could gain a reaction, which certainly appeared!

Let's see how this unfolds, as quite correctly, something like this require much research, and member input.

O/S

[Luthier]

this is not a problem when you live here, transport is cheap But having your design stolen is much more annoying...

I did not say it in my post, but after casting, you still must mill the case for last details (threads). So you re absolutely right. And after you need to send it to a polish factory...

You are kidding ? If no, you don't know chinese factories... Of course they will ! and I can tell you many horror stories that happen to me when I started business here

I fully agree

kind regards

--earth

Earth, I lived in China for years, had business with dozens of factories and worked on many of them, I know this field from A to Z.

I patented about 25 designs after a few factories tried to steal a few, but I have excellent patent lawyers in BJ, so, these badtards stopped.

My point is... who will know, that it's let's say - Sub case, without seeing a finished product, not just a case for your own design of watch? To milling factory it's just a "watch case" with no name, they'll not know it's value. At least it's what I think.

OS, you're absolutely correct - they have no clue, and it only prove my point - nobody will steal just "no name" case.

[vlaletom]

and for the production process, IMHO, I think it's not a good idea to mill the case, as the factory will make thousand of them afterwards without you know about it...

How ironic. since this is a rep in the first place.

Is protecting ou intellectual property, really one of the goal for this project ?

It seams from the various imput, that this is going toward "the most known luxury diver watch in the market".

Honestly if this was just to produce an accurate case of a contemporary model of this particuliar watch, the whole project wouldnt have much interest to me.

I'll rather not go with the most know, commonplace and reped watch in the world.

I am not exluding that brand but this particulliar model.(i'll take "the most known chronograph of the market" anytime).

Of course this is just my 0.2$, and the project has to satisfy at least 200 people

Toward the whole watch or case question.

I would go for case only...

I suspect for a whole watch project, somthing, somwhere is not going to meet the 1:1 case standard.

This would ruin the concept of 1:1, without mods and having to source extra or gen parts anyway...

And as i allready said what kind of movement will be the target ?

Are we trying to do a decently priced base set for a nice franken, for around 200 menber, and so competing with ndt/phong & the like

Or trying to do a more perfect accessible base replica

Both way are interesting.

For me i would rather have somthing that can work with the same base caliber, it push the concept of 1:1 further.

[docblackrock]

Hold on, I thought we were talking Viet-type vintage cases?

If all this is about making yet another frickin' Sub, then I'm clicking "stop watching this topic" right now

“Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.”

[offshore]

Doc,

Right now we are talking about a concept, not a product.

Posted this for feedback, which is invaluable, but right now nothing is planned!

Remain to be convinced that the most popular disscusions here,are the only options

Whatsay, (for instance) a case for a UN "Freak"? I'm sure we can whistle up a bunch of movements to suit! ( JK )

O/S

PS ( I hate polls )

[Demsey]

Demsey, Russians shot first artificial Earth satellite into space in 1957, and first man in 1961, and VOSTOK spaceship was made not by sledgehammer.

True! And they also reverse engineered the TU-4 from a B-29. All with calipers, slide rules and stolen intelligence! Impressive!

I'm not above thread crapping Luth, but I certainly won't debate the finer points of Russian cutting edge technological advancement. I mean:

The 'Buran'. Look familiar?

You want to prove your bravery in no uncertain terms? Join the Russian Nuclear Sub Fleet.

[docblackrock]

Doc,

Right now we are talking about a concept, not a product.

Posted this for feedback, which is invaluable, but right now nothing is planned!

Remain to be convinced that the most popular disscusions here,are the only options

Whatsay, (for instance) a case for a UN "Freak"? I'm sure we can whistle up a bunch of movements to suit! ( JK )

O/S

PS ( I hate polls )

Fair enough mate, I got the sense a little hijacking was going on from the Sub nuts.

But anyway at some point you have to move beyond the concept The 'concept' is clearly a flyer, you seem to have found both the personnel and have the wherewithal to pull this off. But as per my little dig at Gran, it's the specifics and finer points that matter the most, and that's where the excrement tends to hit the fan unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, as Dems said we have you which is something, and I'm happy to help with any info if I can when you come down to model choice. But you must forgive me if I also reserve the right to retain a healthy dose of scepticism about projects like this in general.

[docblackrock]

True! And they also reverse engineered the TU-4 from a B-29. All with calipers, slide rules and stolen intelligence! Impressive!

I'm not above thread crapping Luth, but I certainly won't debate the finer points of Russian cutting edge technological advancement. I mean:

The 'Buran'. Look familiar?

[trailboss]

No fair DBR, there's only one stable shape for a SST and that's it!

Any Soyuz blowen up recently? I thought not.

The shuttle may be the most complicated machine ever built but I'd hardly hold it up as an example of moden design. It actualy belongs on the ark.

Remember also it's replacment is basicly a revamped version of the boster that put the Apolo into orbit.

Russians know how to build a good, simple device that works under all sorts of condidions, something the US has allways had a problem with.

Russia never does tech for the sake of tech. The subs, yes they tend to go down once more than they surface but it's mainly QC matters rather than design. I was briefly part owner of a Russian diesel/ electric sub, the Skorpion (it's a long story involving abalone diving, ASIO and da feds that I'll tell some other time) and there was nothing wrong with her I can tell you, we got her home to OZ.

Look for your self, she's moored beside the Queen Mary now.

Geting [censored] off workers to build an atom boat propperly is another story however.

Back on the subject, Moonie? I got a pair of gen dials

I would think just cases would be the way to go on this. Let folk build their own master piece. If it turns out 1:1 there are heaps of bits to fit whatever the watch chosen. Less chance of geting in trunie as well. The only other thing that needs to be made are MVT holders for the gen and an ETA MVT to suit. All the rest can be sourced easily enough by the buyer.

Col.

[ubiquitous]

I would think just cases would be the way to go on this. Let folk build their own master piece.

That's been the standpoint I've always taken with reps; all you need is a good case. Things like dials, movements, etc. can be found elsewhere to build to suit.

[gran]

Fair enough mate, I got the sense a little hijacking was going on from the Sub nuts.

But anyway at some point you have to move beyond the concept The 'concept' is clearly a flyer, you seem to have found both the personnel and have the wherewithal to pull this off. But as per my little dig at Gran, it's the specifics and finer points that matter the most, and that's where the excrement tends to hit the fan unfortunately. Don't get me wrong, as Dems said we have you which is something, and I'm happy to help with any info if I can when you come down to model choice. But you must forgive me if I also reserve the right to retain a healthy dose of scepticism about projects like this in general.

Understandable......my idea way back was to start up a line of RWG watches that would develop into a brand of its own (Homage watches not true replicas) and not to make the perfect replica...I guess making a perfect replica can lead to individuals trying to sell it as the real deal and that would be a shame ..its against everything this board stands for...and yes if things can go wrong sometimes they do.

But I like the notion that someone wants to make the prefect replica to show that its possible and to put the pressure on the ones making replicas today

[Demsey]

I like the notion that someone wants to make the prefect replica to show that its possible and to put the pressure on the ones making replicas today

'Kit Replicas', like 'Kit Cars'. There's a mustard seed there.

But, if the cases were readily available, then another BK Garage would open up. Fine. Love it. But, that would mean another $500+ replica chronometer. No can use.