Where does 'rep' end and 'gen' begin

[Ronin]

The only GEN watch is one that is 100% made by the manufacturer. Anything else with gen parts, even if ALL parts are GEN is a custom made after market watch. It can never be GEN.

Simple, concise, clear... I would have to agree.

[TeeJay]

Actually i dont think rolex did the DSSD to have a bigger watch in there range, but rather to recover the record of waterproof deeps.

You have to keep in mind that what rolex market is the "spirt" of diver watch.

That's what they made there reputation on, only few people knows what other inovation they made, but everybody knows that they are THE diver watch...

Absolutely

To come back to the topic focus :

I don't see how a watch, that comes with a true manufacture movement, can be considered as gen if it doesnt have the gen movement, if all parts are gen on a rolex expet the ETA inside, this is certainly not a rolex.

So for most rolex only the pre 2000 chronograph would be arguable (valjoux/zenith).

I would say that if it was a 100% gen shop-bought Rolex, which had then (for whatever reason) had to have a generic ETA fitted, that it would still be a real Rolex, but, I think there would then always be the answer, to "Is it real?" "Yes, but the movement is a replacement, not the original..." Where on the other hand, if it was built with all gen parts, but not by Rolex Manufacturing, then I don't think it could every truly be considered a gen, just, custom built with gen parts...

[vlaletom]

I would say that if it was a 100% gen shop-bought Rolex, which had then (for whatever reason) had to have a generic ETA fitted, that it would still be a real Rolex, but, I think there would then always be the answer, to "Is it real?" "Yes, but the movement is a replacement, not the original..." Where on the other hand, if it was built with all gen parts, but not by Rolex Manufacturing, then I don't think it could every truly be considered a gen, just, custom built with gen parts...

Hum... i see thing slightly diferently...

In my pereception a 100% gen parts rolex assembled by whoever (like me for the exemple), is a real rolex, that just can't get serviced by rolex.

And don't share the same values in a collector eyes as if did live the factory like that, with correct serial, paper, tracking service...

For me it would still be true if it had minor aftermarket part like crystall, gasket, tube, band, stuff like that.

So basically a gen as to be at least : case, dial, movement

On the other hand if your factory rolex had part remplaced with eta, it is not for me a rolex anymore, because rolex is producing, manufacture movement, so that would imply swaping the all movement.

And in watch with manufacture made caliber, the movement is the most important part of it to be seen as gen.

Now if we are talking of a Daytona for example, and you have to remplace some part of the movement with generique valjoux or zenith part, i agree with you that i would still see it as a true gen. Just with the warenty and collector value problem.

Now if you find a rolex movement and put it some no name case, with absolutly no branding, i tend to see it as some sort of rolex watch.

This is more acceptable as an example, if we are talking of a 1920 rolex pocket watch movement, without a RWC case ...

Well in the end this is very subjective, and a matter of personal perception...

[TeeJay]

Hum... i see thing slightly diferently...

In my pereception a 100% gen parts rolex assembled by whoever (like me for the exemple), is a real rolex, that just can't get serviced by rolex.

And don't share the same values in a collector eyes as if did live the factory like that, with correct serial, paper, tracking service...

For me it would still be true if it had minor aftermarket part like crystall, gasket, tube, band, stuff like that.

So basically a gen as to be at least : case, dial, movement

On the other hand if your factory rolex had part remplaced with eta, it is not for me a rolex anymore, because rolex is producing, manufacture movement, so that would imply swaping the all movement.

And in watch with manufacture made caliber, the movement is the most important part of it to be seen as gen.

Now if we are talking of a Daytona for example, and you have to remplace some part of the movement with generique valjoux or zenith part, i agree with you that i would still see it as a true gen. Just with the warenty and collector value problem.

Now if you find a rolex movement and put it some no name case, with absolutly no branding, i tend to see it as some sort of rolex watch.

This is more acceptable as an example, if we are talking of a 1920 rolex pocket watch movement, without a RWC case ...

Well in the end this is very subjective, and a matter of personal perception...

Yes, I see what you mean, and yes, I personally would consider it a real Rolex as well, because as you say, all the components are there, and the person assembling it doesn't not make those parts any more or less 'real', so yes, it would be a real Rolex, but, I would accept that the world or ADs and Rolex Service Centers would never accept it as 'official'

[Brightight]

I think we're straying from the point slightly. It's not so much what Rolex think of a Franken, but what the legal situation is. For example in Italy where rep watches are highly illegal and large penalties are available for owning one. I feel sure that legally any collection of parts where those actually marked 'Rolex' are genuine, those not marked are aftermarket, is, while possibly not a gen in any way, not an illegal rep but a modified or assembled legitimate watch. To me the whole point about a rep being counterfeit is it is composed of parts marked illegally with the gen manufacturer's name or mark.

With reference to Rolex swapping out but keeping or destroying non genuine parts (or genuine for that matter) while servicing, I doubt they would actually get away with this in Europe (though please say if you know otherwise) based on the situation with for example car servicing/repair where it is a legal requirement that parts replaced are available for inspection after the job is completed, and will be returned to the owner if he or she wishes. Anything else is seen as fraud and theft. I know some companies in the guitar business for example, follow a similar process in that they will not supply you with a new part until you return the old part to them. However this is more a process of insuring that parts sold are for genuine use on the original guitar and not to be used for making a counterfeit.

[TeeJay]

I think we're straying from the point slightly. It's not so much what Rolex think of a Franken, but what the legal situation is. For example in Italy where rep watches are highly illegal and large penalties are available for owning one. I feel sure that legally any collection of parts where those actually marked 'Rolex' are genuine, those not marked are aftermarket, is, while possibly not a gen in any way, not an illegal rep but a modified or assembled legitimate watch. To me the whole point about a rep being counterfeit is it is composed of parts marked illegally with the gen manufacturer's name or mark.

With reference to Rolex swapping out but keeping or destroying non genuine parts (or genuine for that matter) while servicing, I doubt they would actually get away with this in Europe (though please say if you know otherwise) based on the situation with for example car servicing/repair where it is a legal requirement that parts replaced are available for inspection after the job is completed, and will be returned to the owner if he or she wishes. Anything else is seen as fraud and theft. I know some companies in the guitar business for example, follow a similar process in that they will not supply you with a new part until you return the old part to them. However this is more a process of insuring that parts sold are for genuine use on the original guitar and not to be used for making a counterfeit.

I'm not too sure of the actual legislation, but I would hope, it would go something like this...

Guy orders a load of 100% gen parts off the Bay/some Rolex service center yard sale etc and builds himself a watch...

The Polizia get a tip that he's wearing a fake watch, so start the legal process (whoever tipped them off needs teaching a lesson in manners... ) Guy goes through his papers, and gets his receipts which prove that the parts are genuine and paid for. Polizia return his watch to him as being made from legally purchased parts.

Of course, it would not surprize me if the Polizia do not return the watch, but instead charge the guy with 'forgery', and infringement of trademark (even though he only wears the watch and never had the intent to sell it) In a country where the mere ownership of a rep is considered a crime, then I really wouldn't like to say how the courts would deal with a 100% gen-parts franken... I suspect, they'd come down with the letter of the law, just to that in the future, any other cases of copyright infringement cannot try and use it to cite precedent for someone getting away with it...

Thanks for sparking such a thought-provoking discussion

[Brightight]

Yes, it is thought provoking, at least the thought provoked me for a while That's why I thought I'd get some more brains on the issue.

[TeeJay]

Yes, it is thought provoking, at least the thought provoked me for a while That's why I thought I'd get some more brains on the issue.