lionsandtigers Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 Forgive me if this topic has been covered before. Now, the rep manufactures are obviously very good and efficient at making almost perfect reps of the real thing, well, the good manufactures. So my question is, what exactly stops them from making a perfect rep? I would assume it would take the same amount of work to do, and laws are laws, and either way it's illegal. How hard would it actually be to get the font correct on the dial, the date magnification correct and the placement of everything in order. This is directed mostly at rollie reps, but its also a general flaw in all reps. So basically what i'm asking is, whats to stop people from bringing it up a notch and putting out actually perfect replicas? It's not like there's no market for it, lol. But, maybe i've missed something, so if i'm in fact an ignorant fool, shame on me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 So basically what i'm asking is, whats to stop people from bringing it up a notch and putting out actually perfect replicas? Don't ... damn, too late. Now every conspiracy theorist will come out of the woodwork with their pet theories about how it's to sell us the same watch over and over. Or how they have to introduce errors to keep the heat off. The fact of the matter is that they do make 100% perfect reps sometimes. Like the TAG Heuer Link, for instance. What stops them from making a 100% perfect replica? It's hard. Look at the amount of variation in the Rolex dials before they brought everything in house. Even afterwards, there's so much variation the gens get called reps even on here. They make them as accurate as they can and they sell all they can make. What incentive do they have to go that extra distance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted August 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 incentive, hmmmmmmm, 50 virgins upon their entrance to heaven???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 incentive, hmmmmmmm, 50 virgins upon their entrance to heaven???? Yeah, but not even suicide bombers believe that crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted August 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 hahahahaha, touche Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guesswho Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 In my own cynical view its so people will keep on buying the newer revisions of the same watch in the quest for accuracy. Just look at all the gens of the PO, we are on what, 5th now? I dare say that some people who brought a first gen, will have brought a 4th gen. And if a 100% perfect one came out, they'd buy one again. Therefore they make their money 3 times over. Similarly why mobile phone manufacturers dont just stick in a 5mp camera in the phone instead of giving 2mp, then 3mp. It's so that people will constantly upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionsandtigers Posted August 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 great point, and you're probably dead on....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 In my own cynical view its so people will keep on buying the newer revisions of the same watch in the quest for accuracy. Damn, there's the first. Ok, I'll not bother explaining why your camera analogy is way off, but just let's assume it is. Next: Why would a replica manufacturer make a crappy case, retool and do it again? Imagine if you will that there are a huge number of replica manufacturers and that one of them releases a Planet Ocean. Then, another factory sees that success and decides to take a bit of it. They decide to make it better so that the distributor, the real power player, chooses them over the older factory. This is the second gen. Now, a third factory sees how the first two factories made a killing off the Planet Ocean, but decides to make one even better so that the other two can't keep churning out the lower quality watches, forcing them to retool to compete. Then, the first two come back in the game and make 4th and 5th gen, competing for the distributor's eye. Does that seem remotely feasible? Arguments against would have to include a mafia-like godfather of replicas who controls all the factories and forces them to make incrementally less crappy models each time. This is so unfeasible a theory that we have to go with Occam and say it's not the case. Cynicism is a great quality, but not when it introduces fantastical theories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finepics Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 That sound more likely. Also remember that it is not one factory that makes these things. There are case makers, dial makers, hand makers etc etc. That way no one factory can be accused of making the watch. Sometimes they rely on photos from the gen websites which is why the PAM 212 started out with the wrong CG to start with as the rep makers released this before Panerai had even finalised the design!. The other thing of course is that if a maker comissions 500 dials with a small error they want to get rid of them before they then might correct them with the next batch. I suppose that sometimes our dealers tell their wholesalers of an error who then tell the makers and then it gets changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Okay, the REAL truth is that the gen manufacturers have a deal in place with the Chinese rep makers to make reps that are good but not perfect. This causes people who would not otherwise consider buying Rolexes and Omegas, and really have no business wasting money on such frivolities, to buy reps and unknowingly start on their path toward WISdom. Over time the reps are insufficient to satisfy their desire to be taken seriously as real WIS's and the rep buyer dips into his son's college fund/scratches plastic/cancels his yearly vacation to Hawaii to buy into the luxury watch club. In this way Rolex/Panerai/Omega gets thousands of new addicts a year and the Chinese rep makers collect all business of all those who can't afford or don't want the real thing anyway, so everybody wins except for the sap who drives a Pizza Hut delivery car, lives with his parents and has a Submariner and thinks he's James Bond. I will no doubt be assassinated by the Rolex police for divulging the truth, so let me say in my last post that I've enjoyed being a member of RWC. Godspeed to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Imagine if you will that there are a huge number of replica manufacturers and that one of them releases a Planet Ocean. Then, another factory sees that success and decides to take a bit of it. They decide to make it better so that the distributor, the real power player, chooses them over the older factory. This is the second gen. Now, a third factory sees how the first two factories made a killing off the Planet Ocean, but decides to make one even better so that the other two can't keep churning out the lower quality watches, forcing them to retool to compete. Then, the first two come back in the game and make 4th and 5th gen, competing for the distributor's eye. Does that seem remotely feasible? /quote] Sure, entirely feasable. Problem is that's not the way it works over there in china. I again refer you to threads @ the old RWG in which these questions were addressed by real chinese rep dealers with real connections to real chinese rep factories and who have dealt with real chinese authorities. This horse is as dead as a dead horse, but clearly the "kiss is just a kiss, and a flaw is just a flaw" argument has razor probs of it's own, even without all those stubborn facts doing their stubborn fact thing... To believe that no flaws are intentional you have to believe, among other things, that: Nobody in china could spell "officine" for more than a year--several reps from several factoreis all contained that error on different parts of the watch, on different movements, and in different versions. You must also believe that the chinese, who posess probably more CNC machines than switzerland and germany combined, are incapable of making certain cases--repeatedly--while making many other changes. You have to believe that some high end rep makers believe Rolex is spelled P-O-L-E-X. You have to believe that four amateurs working via PMs on a rep board are capable of producing a decent mag cyclops but the chinese are not. You have to believe that many reps of many brands are numbered #117 because of some cosmic coincidence, not to create a "rep" serial number which makes it harder for slimeballs to sell a rep as a gen (what other reason to do this except to keep the "heat" off?) A more interesting question anyway is will new technology allow some annoying unintentional flaws to be fixed? Everyone assumes (or should, at least) that most flaws are caused by an inability or unwillingness, because of practical issues, to copy a feature of a genuine watch. Some things are too hard or too expensive to copy. Two common flaws serve as excellent examples: the crossbars on the "A"s in PANERAI and the date font on PAM wheels. Everyone who's ever worked on a project that involves printing might have already guessed that since they can't get the text as crisp as panerai does, probably do to the technology they use to print the dials, that if they tried to copy Panerai's A's the A's would look like [censored], a tee-pee with a tip filled in. So, by loweing the crossbar they get the gap that makes an A look like an A, they get a dial that's usable more often. Two years after the first high end panerai reps started being produced can they fix the A's? Who knows? Probably. Will they? We'll see. The date font: I can tell you and Finepics can tell you making datewheels is hard. It would cost them a lot more per unit to swap the font from the stock ETA to the Swiss 721 BT font that panerai uses. Can they do it? If Finepics and I can, sure they can. Will they? Maybe (Jury is still out on the 87). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HeWhoIsLikeGod Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Oh man, you guys opened a can of worms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zola Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 (edited) Okay, the REAL truth is that the gen manufacturers have a deal in place with the Chinese rep makers to make reps that are good but not perfect. This causes people who would not otherwise consider buying Rolexes and Omegas, and really have no business wasting money on such frivolities, to buy reps and unknowingly start on their path toward WISdom. Over time the reps are insufficient to satisfy their desire to be taken seriously as real WIS's and the rep buyer dips into his son's college fund/scratches plastic/cancels his yearly vacation to Hawaii to buy into the luxury watch club. In this way Rolex/Panerai/Omega gets thousands of new addicts a year and the Chinese rep makers collect all business of all those who can't afford or don't want the real thing anyway, so everybody wins except for the sap who drives a Pizza Hut delivery car, lives with his parents and has a Submariner and thinks he's James Bond. I will no doubt be assassinated by the Rolex police for divulging the truth, so let me say in my last post that I've enjoyed being a member of RWC. Godspeed to all of you. Yep I'm joining you’re particular conspiracy bandwagon! After all the Rep industry wants to ride the Luxury Whale not destroy it!!! Equation = 1) Man buys Rep 2) Man receives large number of Compliments, Approving Glances and Smiles from attractive women 3) Man feels great but now wants the feeling without the slightly fraudulent after taste. 4) Man saves up for Gen and/or Sends his rep to Palpatine, RBJ, The Zigmeister, Finepics for sweetening! Now to add to the solidity of this theory is it coincidence that the most accurate rep is the TAG LINK? The genuine watches are not selling well and ADs are offering VERY large discounts! The possibilities are thus... 1) The powers that be allowed this rep to be near perfect in an attempt to persuade the rep community to embrace it. The subsequent Viral Marketing raises the profile of the TAG LINK (Never heard of it before RWG) and sales of the genuine increase. 2) The Rep Manufactures manage to create a perfect replica making the point of buying the Gen ...Pointless! 3) The TAG LINK is a crap watch. (Just a theory) Now if you will excuse me I'm off to work double shifts at the Pizza Hut Edited August 29, 2006 by Zola Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhinagoya Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 I believe that the reality is some mix of what has been said. I have reason to believe that (for the most part) the accuracy of reps is a function of chance. As has been noted, the people who assemble these watches are not the same people that make the parts. If the person procuring the parts happens to source a bunch of very accurate parts, then someone builds a very accurate watch. In other (rare) cases, parts are sourced for their accuracy and small production runs are made of specific models. I suspect that some of our dealers have something to do with this upon occasion. Some effort is made to build a decent rep, but that effort is limited. In my opinion, there is no conspiracy by anyone to do anything, other than to keep people employed and produce a profit or at least stay in business. Trying to apply western logic to business practices in a communist Asian country is sheer folly. Someone buys parts for an assembly company and that company builds watches from the parts. Someone else sells them. People have jobs and someone probably makes a profit. Sometimes, someone can convince said assembly company to use a very specific set of parts or even convince an individual part making company to build something very specific, especially if they are willing to purchase a 'minimum quantity' of these specific watches. Again, there is no conspiracy. It's just a business, run with a logic that we westerners don't really understand. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zola Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Trying to apply western logic to business practices in a communist Asian country is sheer folly. As the saying goes Bill "Business is Business" I assure you China (predicted to be the world’s largest exporter by 2010) does not conduct business using its own unique brand of Logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 The Polex flaw is an obvious deliberate one, I'll give you that. It's also got a good reason for existing as it takes 3 seconds with an engraver to make it say Rolex, but also doesn't make the case a trademark/copyright infringement. ... and yes, western logic isn't going to explain anything here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 ... and yes, western logic isn't going to explain anything here. That's why I consider my and Zola's explanation to be the best one, because it utilizes no particular logic at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zola Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 That's why I consider my and Zola's explanation to be the best one, because it utilizes no particular logic at all. Yep it's the same logic that would make me spend another $300 on a 212 if the markers went out instead of in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsv123 Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 What makes us think that 'perfect' reps (probably not of Rolex) aren't being made in small quantities and making it out there on to eBay and into the second hand market?! Honestly, just the datewheels and crowns on Panerais suggest there is a reason other than 'it's very difficult' either they do it to [a] create the market for the next 'version', because they think 95% is good enough or [c] they want to keep the reps distinct from the gen for those who know what to look for. Personally I would go for primarily , with a bit of [a] (once they realised that they were creating this effect). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluray Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 so everybody wins except for the sap who drives a Pizza Hut delivery car, lives with his parents and has a Submariner and thinks he's James Bond. LMAO! That mad me almost choke on my coffee, so very true, and seems to be more and more of these "saps" out there. Too funny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perfectionist Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Hey, what TTK does with his life is his own business - leave the poor guy alone !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted August 29, 2006 Report Share Posted August 29, 2006 Or they are selling enough of the current reps that they don't need to perfect it for the (relative) handful of sales they would get from us on the boards. After all, there are many who may believe an idealwatches rep is perfect as they describe and not notice all the minute defects that us nut-jobs do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 Don't ... damn, too late. What stops them from making a 100% perfect replica? It's hard. Look at the amount of variation in the Rolex dials before they brought everything in house. Even afterwards, there's so much variation the gens get called reps even on here. They make them as accurate as they can and they sell all they can make. What incentive do they have to go that extra distance? I agree to an extent.... but this statement does not address some very minor but naggin cosmetic issues that would appear to be easy to fix from a lay person's perspective such as fat crown guards etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted August 30, 2006 Report Share Posted August 30, 2006 What makes us think that 'perfect' reps (probably not of Rolex) aren't being made in small quantities and making it out there on to eBay and into the second hand market?! Honestly, just the datewheels and crowns on Panerais suggest there is a reason other than 'it's very difficult' either they do it to [a] create the market for the next 'version', because they think 95% is good enough or [c] they want to keep the reps distinct from the gen for those who know what to look for. Personally I would go for primarily , with a bit of [a] (once they realised that they were creating this effect). i agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhinagoya Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 This type of speculation is entertaining, to say the least. Since we are just having a chat and none of this is serious, I will state that I am inclined to stay with my statement regarding a western inability to understand the business practices of Mainland China. I have a reason. I happen to be in Asia on business and have been here for six months (this trip). A lot of business in Mainland China is a function of the government assuring that jobs are available and as was the case with the old Soviet Union, profit isn't always a part of the objective. Other factors are also involved, and though I have seen them at work, I will openly admit to having no inkling of why some things are done. I have learned to function within this culture but I certainly do not understand it, nor do I ever expect to. Come on guys, let's keep trying to figure out why knockoffs aren't exact duplicates of the originals. It's fun. Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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