lanikai Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I see many inquiries from Noobs lately that ask .. "Should I get the 'Swiss eta'??" To clarify this question I feel a clarification should be made to the "eta"..and the "Swiss eta".. it may seem like a play on semantic.. but it's not.. I am not posting this thread to be flamed and dealers pointed at.. this is merely an info for your use.. take what you need .... leave what you don't.. by Swiss Federation law... any eta movement has to be serviced by a Swiss technicial to be "branded" as a "Swiss" movement.. this is not only relevant to the movement itself but to the cost of the units.. imo.. See here for more solid literature .. specifically the "updates in Swiss competition Law" Google page Swiss ETA law Edit add: remember not to long ago eta's where manufactured (the facotry) in China and Singapore.. but they were serviced by the Brand names before being installed in their watches.. ergo by Federation law "Swiss Made".. The answer regarding the A7750's may be read here Ziggy's reviews if you are not reading these time consuming invaluable info .. you are missing the point of the Forum altogether.. All the info I have is from the man that spends time to educate us.. if I am in error it is "My' misunderstanding and not Zig's teachings.. I want that stated up front ! Back on point... this is the factory sealed package: this movement has been serviced and is a "Swiss ETA" gtg without any further servicing: The watches pictured above are some of the reps I consider worth the ETA swap.. here is Ofrei's offerings..you can get them for less if you shop .. the eta 7750's I have gotten for 300 to 350 run very good.. and if they are serviced by Zig then they are .. imo.. just as good as any 800 usd Swiss ETA. Mechanical Movements Ofrei does not label them "Swiss ETA" just "ETA" .. they are about half the price of the factory sealed Swiss movement, the Valjoux which we covet is 450 usd on Ofrei.. even the dealers call the movement "eta" it is our misunderstanding of the facts... so the next time you think about swapping a A7750 read Ziggy's review first.. if you still are headed for a swap.. be informed on what you are buying, the differences and the pricing.. and please be aware of what is "Swiss" and what is ETA.. Personally I swap the Valjoux 7750's for the "Super reps".. and have the A7750's "serviced" after receiving them for reps that are good but not "Super" .. after servicing, they have been running great.. spot on as far as time with my ETA's.... granted the gearing feels better in the eta's .. but I pick and choose where the eta's go.. and the one "Swiss ETA" is still awaiting that perfect rep.. AC Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Good info and knowledge. With so many different variations of movements, Swiss, Asian, 21600bph, 28800bph, the world of semantics can get quite muddy very quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bike Mike Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 The explanation can not be put into anymore of a laymen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 The explanation can not be put into anymore of a laymen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I am curious, what is Ofrei selling? Are the ETA's he provides ready for prime time or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'm not saying their not GTG.. but the branding is different..but since I am not a watch smith.... if Ziggy can give us his definition that would be great.. AC Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I am curious, what is Ofrei selling? Are the ETA's he provides ready for prime time or not? Oft times, Ofrei has surplus stock on movements. No telling how old, or what kind of service history they have. They may be good to roll out of the plastic container case (I've had good success with his movements), but an overhaul may be a good idea sooner than later just to give you a good baseline and overall view on condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Oft times, Ofrei has surplus stock on movements. No telling how old, or what kind of service history they have. They may be good to roll out of the plastic container case (I've had good success with his movements), but an overhaul may be a good idea sooner than later just to give you a good baseline and overall view on condition. Thanks ubi.. eloquently put.. AC L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 My understanding is as follows, there are two options for Genuine ETA movements: 1. Factory sealed blister packs as shown in your post, these are normally referred to as "Swiss". These are typically 150% - 200% higher priced than the second type of ETA's described below. They are factory sealed, and serviced as delivered and the blister pack contains no air. Air causes oil to deterioriate. They are ready to be installed as received. 2. "Surplus" movements, sold in everything from "loose pack" plastic envelopes, to small plastic containers. These are Genuine ETA movements, but are typically of unknown and various origins, which is why you get some with all sorts of names on the rotors. The condition of these movements varies from pristing to a mess and in dire need of servicing. I have had some that were all gummed up and not running, simply due to age. They weren't worn out, simply in need of servicing. Many of these are "ebauches" which are sold by ETA without any mainspring barrel or balance installed. These are bought in bulk on the surplus market by the various suppliers, Ofrei, Jules Borel, Cousins, etc, in some cases there is an intermediate seller who buys up a bunch of ebauches and has them assembled and then sells them to the suppliers. Each type is "Swiss", in that they are genuine ETA movements and ETA as part of the Swatch group is a "Swiss" company. The "Swiss" designation in the first type is used because they are supplied directly from Switzerland in the sealed packs. The Surplus movements can come from anywhere in the market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxman Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 My understanding is as follows, there are two options for Genuine ETA movements: 1. Factory sealed blister packs as shown in your post, these are normally referred to as "Swiss". These are typically 150% - 200% higher priced than the second type of ETA's described below. They are factory sealed, and serviced as delivered and the blister pack contains no air. Air causes oil to deterioriate. They are ready to be installed as received. 2. "Surplus" movements, sold in everything from "loose pack" plastic envelopes, to small plastic containers. These are Genuine ETA movements, but are typically of unknown and various origins, which is why you get some with all sorts of names on the rotors. The condition of these movements varies from pristing to a mess and in dire need of servicing. I have had some that were all gummed up and not running, simply due to age. They weren't worn out, simply in need of servicing. Many of these are "ebauches" which are sold by ETA without any mainspring barrel or balance installed. These are bought in bulk on the surplus market by the various suppliers, Ofrei, Jules Borel, Cousins, etc, in some cases there is an intermediate seller who buys up a bunch of ebauches and has them assembled and then sells them to the suppliers. Each type is "Swiss", in that they are genuine ETA movements and ETA as part of the Swatch group is a "Swiss" company. The "Swiss" designation in the first type is used because they are supplied directly from Switzerland in the sealed packs. The Surplus movements can come from anywhere in the market... Thanks Zig, very helpful Information Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted November 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Thank you Ziggy.. great insight as always AC L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbutlerman Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I find this topic fascinating. You would think that there would be a little more information on the origins of each individual movement from the manufacturer (ETA). A $50 DVD player has a serial number and you can tell where it was manufactured and when. But you can't tell with a $400 movement, which I would assume, takes a lot more time to assemble. Is this due to the length of time that these movements have been made, or excesses of stock, intermittent manufacturing, ???? Heck, even pennies have a Mint mark.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bike Mike Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I thought that is what "we" are.. or have you turned Professional I have turned Proffesional. Proffesional what yet, I don't know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Great info Ubi and Zig, My take away from this is: Unless it is in the ETA Sealed Pak, Service it. It is sort of misleading to think if you have a bad movement, you can simply buy a replacement from Ofrei and R&R it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I find this topic fascinating. You would think that there would be a little more information on the origins of each individual movement from the manufacturer (ETA). A $50 DVD player has a serial number and you can tell where it was manufactured and when. But you can't tell with a $400 movement, which I would assume, takes a lot more time to assemble. Is this due to the length of time that these movements have been made, or excesses of stock, intermittent manufacturing, ???? Heck, even pennies have a Mint mark.... My understanding is as follows: All the movements are "genuine" ETA movements. The sealed blister packs are sourced directly from ETA in Switzerland, the "loose pack" movements are sourced from the ETA distributor in Hong Kong. The movements take as much time to assemble no matter the source, the only advantage of the blister pack ones is that they don't need servicing as delivered. @RoninQ That is partially correct, it's a crap shoot buying movements from Jules Borel or Ofrei, since they are all loose pack movements. You may get a pristing movement that is correctly oiled and serviced, or you may get a well used gummed up one, the only way to know for sure, is to partially disassemble the movement and have a look at it carefully. It has always been misleading, how many times has someone posted that they have a problem with their ETA 2836, when told the cost of servicing, they refuse to spend the money, and believe that it's better to simply buy a "new" replacement movement from Ofrei and replace their movement with this one. The reality is that unless you pay for the blister pack, your no further ahead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I find this topic fascinating. You would think that there would be a little more information on the origins of each individual movement from the manufacturer (ETA). A $50 DVD player has a serial number and you can tell where it was manufactured and when. But you can't tell with a $400 movement, which I would assume, takes a lot more time to assemble. Well, considering that replacement bridges, plates etc. are easily swapped during servicing, etc. the provenance is not as easy to track. The mish mash of parts over the course of time can easily dilute the provenance of a piece, and you'd never have a really accurate picture of it's true origins anyways. Plus, think about the volume ETA churns out on these things. 30 years of production... That's a lot of records to keep for movements that are so... ubiquitous... in the world of horology, I'm sure they probably don't see much upside to maintaining or managing that kind of data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Last question. Where does one source the sealed blister packs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted November 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 Last question. Where does one source the sealed blister packs? if I remember correctly Ofrei "used" to have them.. I scored the one in the pic for an outrageously low price.. saving it for that particular piece.. that has yet to be made.. but when you think about it an eta 7750 sent to the Zig for full service is just as good and you'd save a some $$. AC Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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