TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I've heard for some time about folks carrying a roll of quarters to lend weight to a punch, and even that some bars in the US will not allow people to carry money inside in this form, but make them change it for paper at the door. I was thinking that in the UK, the law likes to throw in little phrases like "going equipped" or "with intent" Personally, I think those are bullshit, as intent does not always become action, and who defines when a person is indeed 'going equipped' for criminal intent? For example, I could put a roll of coins in my pocket, which would be worth £5 (or more, depending on higher denomination coins) so should I ever be in the situation where I actually need emergency cash, I would not only have enough for a basic meal, maybe a cab ride somewhere, or some coins for a phonebox, I would have them to hand. And of course, a roll of coins would have the advantage of 1) Not jangling with every movement and 2) Be small enough not to take up much pocket room. Of course, should I ever feel the need to weight a punch, well, I guess they could be used to do that as well But how would the law view that? How could they prove that I had intent to carry coins specifically to use as an offensive weapon, rather than simply for emergency survival (would not defending oneself from an attacker count as emergency survival?) I was just wondering where the law stands in your corner of the world... "laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Cesare Beccaria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 A good question TJ A friend of mine was stopped for drink driving a couple of years ago (Fool)but the polices had a good look in his car and tool box and tried to do him for going equipped as he had a stanley knife, a crowbar, and screw divers in his car, he fits and removes windows for a living! In the end he got away with the tools but they did try hard to get him on them. One of the annoying things that UK and i think Germany now enforces is going equipped would include the wearing of body Armour for your own protection, I tell you what there are parts of UK that if i lived there i would want my kids to wear body Armour to school! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 well in Canada our laws about self defense are confusing at best, but I personally carry pepper spray strictly for out of control situations that will unlikely come my way and in a life or death situation I doubt i'd be prosecuted in good conscience for using it. technically it's illegal to carry pepperspray here, but I could legally carry a machete, sword or knife as long as it's not concealed or an unloaded shotgun/rifle with a PAL license or loaded shotgun in designated areas with no more than 5 rounds in it (not that I could legally use it on a person given a threatening situation or theft of property. ..O'CANADA.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchurch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Living in the US I can say I have never heard of anyone stopping me from carrying coins in any shape doesn't matter if they are in a bag, jar, roll or loose in my pockets. If you are going through the airport or courthouse or perhaps any place that has a metal detector you might want to use something else or keep a spare wrap because I could see you being asked to unwrap them to show they aren't a weapon. But after you make it past security just wrap them again. And if you had a feeling someone was going to hassle you just pick up a roll of new coins from the bank. That way you just claim to be a collector of coins and you are on your way and you shouldn't be asked to change them in for bills either. Personally I would just avoid going around places where I would need to pack something like that lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 A good question TJ A friend of mine was stopped for drink driving a couple of years ago (Fool)but the polices had a good look in his car and tool box and tried to do him for going equipped as he had a stanley knife, a crowbar, and screw divers in his car, he fits and removes windows for a living! In the end he got away with the tools but they did try hard to get him on them. One of the annoying things that UK and i think Germany now enforces is going equipped would include the wearing of body Armour for your own protection, I tell you what there are parts of UK that if i lived there i would want my kids to wear body Armour to school! That's the whole 'going equipped' part of the law which really bugs me. It's almost like they can't get someone for this, so they'll try and get them done for that, just in case... As you say, someone carrying what are legitimately 'the tools of their trade' will always be able to justify carrying them. I remember reading a while back about a chef getting in trouble for carrying a knife, but it was obviously not intended to be used as a weapon. I guess it's a bit like if someone's driving around with a baseball bat on the backseat, it could be argued that they're tooled up (regardless of if it's for self-defence or to dish out a beating) but if someone's driving around with a baseball bat, a ball, and a catcher's mitt, well, that certainly blurs the line more towards 'recreational use'... I think the thing with the roll of coins which fascinates me, is that the coins are legal tender. They are not illegal to carry. Of course, that's where 'intent' comes into play, but, as above, how could the law actually prove that someone is carrying a roll of coins so they can give someone a pasting (or weight a punch to their advantage incase they get jumped) rather than simply carrying them as a compact and convenient 'emergency fund', should the need arise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 well in Canada our laws about self defense are confusing at best, but I personally carry pepper spray strictly for out of control situations that will unlikely come my way and in a life or death situation I doubt i'd be prosecuted in good conscience for using it. technically it's illegal to carry pepperspray here, but I could legally carry a machete, sword or knife as long as it's not concealed or an unloaded shotgun/rifle with a PAL license or loaded shotgun in designated areas with no more than 5 rounds in it (not that I could legally use it on a person given a threatening situation or theft of property. ..O'CANADA.. Those're some interesting self-defense laws, especially that a blade is legal, where pepperspray is not. Could that be more to do with concealed weapons of any kind, rather than just the nature of the weapons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 well in Canada our laws about self defense are confusing at best, but I personally carry pepper spray strictly for out of control situations that will unlikely come my way and in a life or death situation I doubt i'd be prosecuted in good conscience for using it. technically it's illegal to carry pepperspray here, but I could legally carry a machete, sword or knife as long as it's not concealed or an unloaded shotgun/rifle with a PAL license or loaded shotgun in designated areas with no more than 5 rounds in it (not that I could legally use it on a person given a threatening situation or theft of property. ..O'CANADA.. carrying pepper or CS spay in UK can be up to 5 years nick. CS used to be ok in Germany as is pepper spray but you are not allowed to use pepper on humans. No you need to have a small weapons license (not hard to get if you can justify it) to carry in public now. ON your own property (including car) you can have quite a variety of things for self defense, using them and getting away with it is the hard part. For the non UK residence reading this, if you have a baseball bat by the bed for self defence, that alone would put you in the wrong in a court if you had used that bad against an intruder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Not sure on the rules for 3 pool balls in a long sock though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Living in the US I can say I have never heard of anyone stopping me from carrying coins in any shape doesn't matter if they are in a bag, jar, roll or loose in my pockets. If you are going through the airport or courthouse or perhaps any place that has a metal detector you might want to use something else or keep a spare wrap because I could see you being asked to unwrap them to show they aren't a weapon. But after you make it past security just wrap them again. And if you had a feeling someone was going to hassle you just pick up a roll of new coins from the bank. That way you just claim to be a collector of coins and you are on your way and you shouldn't be asked to change them in for bills either. Personally I would just avoid going around places where I would need to pack something like that lol. That's certainly the best option Of course, I can see the point about carrying them through a security point and it raising a few eyebrows, afterall, I'm sure that anyone in a profession like that seeing a roll of coins is going to know they can be used as a substitute for a set of knucks, I was just wondering more about actual legalities, such as in a 'stop and search' by the police (which can happen) Would they be under the automatic rule that "Rolled coins = Knucks = Weapon" or, would someone be able to explain the amount as 'emergency funds', and not be prosecuted for 'going equipped' to spend legal tender (or maybe defend themself ) [Edit to add] In the UK, coins do not come from the bank in 'roll' form, but in bags of mid-gauge plastic. £5 of ten pence coins, if stacked together, along the bottom edge of the bag, strangely enough, is the same size as the average fist But, the bag would have to be wrapped tight, and then taped so as to prevent the coins shifting and rattling when carried, and carrying the bag of coins un-wrapped, would definitely take most of a pocket's space (and rattle with every step ) That's the thing which makes me curious as to the legality... Legal tender, but carried in a way which is 'other than how the bank provides it', and could just as easily be used as makeshift knucks, as an emergency fund... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 carrying pepper or CS spay in UK can be up to 5 years nick. CS used to be ok in Germany as is pepper spray but you are not allowed to use pepper on humans. No you need to have a small weapons license (not hard to get if you can justify it) to carry in public now. ON your own property (including car) you can have quite a variety of things for self defense, using them and getting away with it is the hard part. For the non UK residence reading this, if you have a baseball bat by the bed for self defence, that alone would put you in the wrong in a court if you had used that bad against an intruder. Absolutely, and I think that's crazy. Of course, it would be interesting to hear a court ruling on one of these: Not sure on the rules for 3 pool balls in a long sock though I've heard that wet sand is a popular variant in beach locations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Of course, should I ever feel the need to weight a punch, well, I guess they could be used to do that as well But how would the law view that? How could they prove that I had intent to carry coins specifically to use as an offensive weapon, rather than simply for emergency survival (would not defending oneself from an attacker count as emergency survival?) Well, seeing as you've effectively admitted on the internet that you are carrying them with the intent to use them as a weapon, you're screwed. The thing is, you are carrying the coins with the intent to use them as a weapon, should the need arise. You are looking for a loophole to go around tooled up and that's precisely what the going equipped laws are there to catch. If you think you're going to get in a scrap, learn to throw a punch properly. You don't need to get a black belt in jeek kwon judo boxing, all you need is to learn how to punch properly. If you're going to get in any fight that goes on for more than a couple of punches, a roll of coins wouldn't have helped anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4GTR Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I feel sorry that you have to question the ability to be able to defend yourself from an attacker. Say what you will about the USA but God bless it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 Well, seeing as you've effectively admitted on the internet that you are carrying them with the intent to use them as a weapon, you're screwed. The thing is, you are carrying the coins with the intent to use them as a weapon, should the need arise. You are looking for a loophole to go around tooled up and that's precisely what the going equipped laws are there to catch. If you think you're going to get in a scrap, learn to throw a punch properly. You don't need to get a black belt in jeek kwon judo boxing, all you need is to learn how to punch properly. If you're going to get in any fight that goes on for more than a couple of punches, a roll of coins wouldn't have helped anyway. But that is precisely the point I'm trying to make. This isn't about my personal intent, but a discussion on the legality, or how could (or even would) the law be able to definitively prove that someone was carrying coins in that matter for use as a weapon, rather than simply as a compactly carried 'emergency fund'... As for your other comments, I agree, and I think self-defense classes should be included in the national curriculum for PE, rather than some of the other more pointless sports like rugby and soccer... Does knowing how to get a ball out of a scrum, or how to aim a kick for a goal really matter after leaving school? Certainly not as much (sadly) as the ability to defend oneself should the need arise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 As for your other comments, I agree, and I think self-defense classes should be included in the national curriculum for PE, rather than some of the other more pointless sports like rugby and soccer... Does knowing how to get a ball out of a scrum, or how to aim a kick for a goal really matter after leaving school? Certainly not as much (sadly) as the ability to defend oneself should the need arise... I think this has a lot to do with self defense, would you try to rob your average rugby player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I feel sorry that you have to question the ability to be able to defend yourself from an attacker. Say what you will about the USA but God bless it. I totally agree with you Gotta love those Second Amendment rights As I understand it, the wording of UK Law recognizes a person's right to use 'reasonable force' to defend themselves, but this is the same kind of thing as the 'with intent'... Who defines what is 'reasonable'? A judge and jury sitting in the safety of a courtroom? WHat they consider 'reasonable', may be very different to the person who thinks they're about to get mugged/murdered/raped walking home... In recent cases, the law has shown itself to be rather against the homeowner, effectively stripping someone of the right to defend themselves, their home, or their family from an intruder, where as I know the law in the US, is much more supportive of people suffering from home-invasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I think this has a lot to do with self defense, would you try to rob your average rugby player Well, if I was a crackhead and really wanted Jonty's Rolex to pay for my next score... Joking asside though, I don't think it's right that people have to take self-defense as an 'after-school activity', rather than something which could easily be incorporated into the curriculum, and could potentially save someone's life in the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 You have a point there TJ But if every one is taught the same then it becomes a mute point as the attacker will know what to expect. We send criminals to prison and they learn to be better criminals, point in case is the Maze in the 70s it was higher educations for terrorists. If in school we teach every one to fight or slf defend the ones who will stray from the straight and narrow will be better equipped to stray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 You have a point there TJ But if every one is taught the same then it becomes a mute point as the attacker will know what to expect. We send criminals to prison and they learn to be better criminals, point in case is the Maze in the 70s it was higher educations for terrorists. If in school we teach every one to fight or slf defend the ones who will stray from the straight and narrow will be better equipped to stray That's very true, I hadn't thought of it that way... I guess I was just thinking that it might have had more potential than some of the more compulsory 'team stuff', but you're quite right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 A judge and jury sitting in the safety of a courtroom? [...] In recent cases, the law has shown itself to be rather against the homeowner, effectively stripping someone of the right to defend themselves, their home, or their family from an intruder, where as I know the law in the US, is much more supportive of people suffering from home-invasions. This fear is completely unfounded. Courts in the UK are made of people, just like you or me. The law is very much on the side of the defender. Recent cases have all resulted in the householders either not being charged, being acquitted or not getting jail time. The police have even recently explicitly stated that defending yourself is a good thing and to have at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 In the US, You could get a permit ro carry a Handgun in some states.....like Arizona, Texas, Washington, Montana, Utah, Florida......just to name a few! That's also why they don't have a lot of Road Rage in those states.......now California and Illinois are different stories! I don't know about California, but Illinois is one of the most conservative and restrictive State that I know of! You can't even buy an ammo here if you don't have a Firearms State ID! On the other hand, who's to stop you with a nice Belt Buckle ! Only at the Airport and Federal Buildings! Swiss Army Knife is okay, too! Or a 50MM Panerai! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I am sure that Tony Martin feels happy that the situation has changed after he spent his time in jail, what he did was a bit extreme but so was the way he was spending his life before the incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 This fear is completely unfounded. Courts in the UK are made of people, just like you or me. The law is very much on the side of the defender. Recent cases have all resulted in the householders either not being charged, being acquitted or not getting jail time. The police have even recently explicitly stated that defending yourself is a good thing and to have at it. I don't think that's quite the message that Myleene Klass got recently... And I quite agree, the jury is made up of regular people, but, my point is more about the settings and hindsight. When viewed analytically in a courtroom, something could be viewed as not 'being reasonable', which might have seemed reasonable at the time, to the person under attack. That is the thing about the law which concerns me by it's vagueness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted February 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 In the US, You could get a permit ro carry a Handgun in some states.....like Arizona, Texas, Washington, Montana, Utah, Florida......just to name a few! That's also why they don't have a lot of Road Rage in those states.......now California and Illinois are different stories! I don't know about California, but Illinois is one of the most conservative and restrictive State that I know of! You can't even buy an ammo here if you don't have a Firearms State ID! On the other hand, who's to stop you with a nice Belt Buckle ! Only at the Airport and Federal Buildings! Swiss Army Knife is okay, too! Or a 50MM Panerai! Funny that there's less tendency for road rage if there's a likelihood of getting a 'cap in the ass' for it [Edit to add] Not that I have an issue with strict licensing laws. I'm a firm believer in the Second Amendment rights, but, much as people are tested and licensed to drive, I don't think it unfair that people be tested and licensed to carry firearms I am sure that Tony Martin feels happy that the situation has changed after he spent his time in jail, what he did was a bit extreme but so was the way he was spending his life before the incident. Now that's just another kettle of fish entirely... A sad state of affairs that a crim was able to sue for compo for injuries sustained during a criminal act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I think the booby traps were planks of wood and buckets of stones rather than kettles of fish but you are right about how sad it was to see that he could sue for damages, maybe next time Tony will use some thing with better range an penetration. back to the original idea i have thought about getting one of these to carry round I first got the idea after watching "Lock stock and two smoking barrels" And to avoid strange question just gift wrap it and write your better half's name on the label. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 I am sure that Tony Martin feels happy that the situation has changed after he spent his time in jail, what he did was a bit extreme but so was the way he was spending his life before the incident. Tony Martin deserved jail time. He set a trap and laid in wait with an illegal firearm. He only got the murder reduced to manslaughter because he was certified a loony. Murdering people, even pikeys, is illegal. I don't think that's quite the message that Myleene Klass got recently... She made that bit about being told off up. Don't believe the hype. And I quite agree, the jury is made up of regular people, but, my point is more about the settings and hindsight. When viewed analytically in a courtroom, something could be viewed as not 'being reasonable', which might have seemed reasonable at the time, to the person under attack. That is the thing about the law which concerns me by it's vagueness. It's vague so there can be leeway. It's never cut-and-dried, but most cases never make it to court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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