The never-ending CG Problem. Let's face it with a AutoCad-designed CNC milled lever

[BuyersRemorse]

Dear Community,

I am continously hearing about Problems with inaccurately looking CGs or almost all current PAM's.

In another thread I have found, that the problem could be the lever, as it has a larger hole than the pin diameter that is holding it.

My Idea is now that the community could just get together, and design a new Lever with correct dimensions in Autocad (would a new CG be necessary?)

We could then find some company that would produce them for us with a Autocad driven CNC miling machine (today thay have almost no tolerance, so we will get exactly what we want).

I hope we find some guys that would be intrested in that, so if one has less time, the other can just continue ... and we rework our custom lever to perfection.

In the end I would say we just give the levers to anyone from the community just for the real production cost that the company basically charges ... A non profit project basically.

Dan

[Sweattdogg]

So your idea is that someone buy a gen cg, do all the work in autocad, find a company who will produce the pieces, which at minimum is probably several hundred if not thousands, front the money, and then sell them at actual cost to produce?

[wheaton26]

we've had members attempt things like this in the past. although it sounds good in theory, i always stay away. the reason being is becasue it takes a lot of time, effort and money to get something like this going. then by the time the project is complete, the factories in china have already fixed the problem. a perfect exanple of late is the ploprof crystal. i was informed by my dealer that a new crown guard lever is already in the works. but if you feel up to the challenge ... go for it!

[swdivad]

I'm a mechanical designer with a background in manufacture.... I use 3d software every day for my job and could probably make the geometry for anything you want...

I don't have the time to do a whole project these days, but I would donate my time doing the design and drawings

[BuyersRemorse]

I'm a mechanical designer with a background in manufacture.... I use 3d software every day for my job and could probably make the geometry for anything you want...

I don't have the time to do a whole project these days, but I would donate my time doing the design and drawings

Wow, that is pretty cool!

Which Cad are you using ... I would download the trial for that then.

I will be able to help you with the drawings and I will find the cheapest company to produce these things.

Maybe someone with a gen here who could help us with the pictures and exact measurements?

[P4GTR]

I really can't imagine a little two piece item like that should be that much of a project.

Are the schematics and/or measurements for the CG and lever available?

[w0lf]

Don't want to be a party pooper but designing a lever by itself you're assuming that all of these CGs have the same tolerances which we know not to be the case. Designing and trying to get a complete CG made stateside will be next to impossible due to most precision shops having this part blacklisted already.

[maxman]

Don't want to be a party pooper but designing a lever by itself you're assuming that all of these CGs have the same tolerances which we know not to be the case. Designing and trying to get a complete CG made stateside will be next to impossible due to most precision shops having this part blacklisted already.

+1 and the fix will probably be In before the project Is complete,as wheaton suggested. Nice Idea though,hearts In the right place

[BuyersRemorse]

@maxman: I will definitely try to get this done before the rep factories upgrade ... even if it's just for the sake of our love to reps.

I am really thinking about getting one of the Aftermarket CGs on ebay to laser-measure them ... but they are not the correct one for the daylights/chronos as they look slightly different (holes for the pushers). Any ideas on this?

I am sure we could have this done within 3-4 weeks :-)

[maxman]

@maxman: I will definitely try to get this done before the rep factories upgrade ... even if it's just for the sake of our love to reps.

I am really thinking about getting one of the Aftermarket CGs on ebay to laser-measure them ... but they are not the correct one for the daylights/chronos as they look slightly different (holes for the pushers). Any ideas on this?

I am sure we could have this done within 3-4 weeks :-)

I will let someone who is qualified answer your questions,I do wish you the very best of luck with your endeavour

[okabum]

@maxman: I will definitely try to get this done before the rep factories upgrade ... even if it's just for the sake of our love to reps.

I am really thinking about getting one of the Aftermarket CGs on ebay to laser-measure them ... but they are not the correct one for the daylights/chronos as they look slightly different (holes for the pushers). Any ideas on this?

I am sure we could have this done within 3-4 weeks :-)

If you are lucky, perhaps 3-4 months.

[swdivad]

Don't want to be a party pooper but designing a lever by itself you're assuming that all of these CGs have the same tolerances which we know not to be the case. Designing and trying to get a complete CG made stateside will be next to impossible due to most precision shops having this part blacklisted already.

Blacklisted?

There's a blacklist of parts not to make in the US??

That's OK, I'm in Oz... they'll make anything here, but expensive

I'm moving to Thailand soon and they will definitely make anything there much cheaper.

In the end, it depends on how much you throw at them.

[swdivad]

Which Cad are you using ... I would download the trial for that then.

I will be able to help you with the drawings and I will find the cheapest company to produce these things.

umm...

I use SolidWorks, but I am offering to do the drawings for you... there aren't very many.

The process would be:

1. 
   
   
2. You get me a CG and lever, or measurements (don't use an aftermarket CG, you should get everything from a gen)
   
3. Determine what cases these will fit to
   
4. I make the 3d model, then make the drawings
   
5. You find a manufacturer
   
6. I send the data to the manufacturer
   
7. He ships the components to you
   
8. You assemble and put them in little plastic bags
   
9. You ship them to all of us eager Panerai freaks here.
   
   

That's it... simple

[swdivad]

oops... repost, mods please delete

[swdivad]

oops... repost, mods please delete

[w0lf]

yes, blacklisted as in - if you're lucky you'll get a nastygram + a trademarked item release request from the shop or if you're not so lucky just a nastygram from richemont directly.

okabum is right, any good machine shop will give you about 4-6 months lead time for a small order like that.

[btocamelo]

yes, blacklisted as in - if you're lucky you'll get a nastygram + a trademarked item release request from the shop or if you're not so lucky just a nastygram from richemont directly.

okabum is right, any good machine shop will give you about 4-6 months lead time for a small order like that.

In this bad economy....there are always rogue machine shops that will run a one-time batch for $$...the task is to ask around until one is willing to commit to look at the CG

[w0lf]

Guys, I'm not just saying this to discourage you. I just don't think many of you have ever done something like this start to finish.

There's probably 20 people on this forum at any given time that can do great CAD work. However, I would estimate that 1) having an oem part to work from, 2) taking accurate measurements of it, and 3) making an accurate technical drawing and cad is only about 30-40% of the deal. Many have gone that far and then some.

Here's what you *actually* need to think about preferably before you spend a month putting the soft part of the project together -- when you find a machine shop that's not going to rat you out and has the right equipment, you then will have to order a custom tooling setup (don't expect the shop to have the right keyways, etc. for this job) and pay for the prototype run. We're talking about several thousand dollars right now, maybe less if you're going to Asia.

It's pretty simple really, let's do a quick search in this subforum and count how many people wanted to do the same thing. Then think of all the others who also thought of it and maybe tried to go the distance but gave up and didn't post. Then finally count those who succeeded. Lastly think about the product they delivered.

Best one is a no brainer - JimmyzFu, I would estimate around 200 pcs. in 2005, and there has been nobody that came close to his product since then.

Everyone else did small runs but something went amiss in the prep stage or they were doing their runs in low precision shops. The final product came with inconsistent tolerances and they eventually retired. The two that are left standing are LH and Toro and their product is a simplified version of historic that is not even 1:1, both outsource their production. It's good by rep standards because it's the best that's available but by and large both mfg. have glaring flaws.

Also, as far as bad economy goes. Just to verify this hypothesis - place a quick call to 10 machine shops in US and Canada tomorrow that have proper Citizen or Microlution machines, and ask them for the lead time to get into small runs queue with a custom tooling setup for, say, 500 pcs.

If you get quoted less then 4 months (assume that when you're ready to go it'll likely become a 6 months queue), you have the cash to buy the tooling, and an OEM part in hand - you're in business. Ohh, also make sure you have the minerals to through with this because it's the one part that Richemont will go after you for.

[statikman]

Guys, I'm not just saying this to discourage you. I just don't think many of you have ever done something like this start to finish.

There's probably 20 people on this forum at any given time that can do great CAD work. However, I would estimate that 1) having an oem part to work from, 2) taking accurate measurements of it, and 3) making an accurate technical drawing and cad is only about 30-40% of the deal. Many have gone that far and then some.

Here's what you *actually* need to think about preferably before you spend a month putting the soft part of the project together -- when you find a machine shop that's not going to rat you out and has the right equipment, you then will have to order a custom tooling setup (don't expect the shop to have the right keyways, etc. for this job) and pay for the prototype run. We're talking about several thousand dollars right now, maybe less if you're going to Asia.

It's pretty simple really, let's do a quick search in this subforum and count how many people wanted to do the same thing. Then think of all the others who also thought of it and maybe tried to go the distance but gave up and didn't post. Then finally count those who succeeded. Lastly think about the product they delivered.

Best one is a no brainer - JimmyzFu, I would estimate around 200 pcs. in 2005, and there has been nobody that came close to his product since then.

Everyone else did small runs but something went amiss in the prep stage or they were doing their runs in low precision shops. The final product came with inconsistent tolerances and they eventually retired. The two that are left standing are LH and Toro and their product is a simplified version of historic that is not even 1:1, both outsource their production. It's good by rep standards because it's the best that's available but by and large both mfg. have glaring flaws.

Also, as far as bad economy goes. Just to verify this hypothesis - place a quick call to 10 machine shops in US and Canada tomorrow that have proper Citizen or Microlution machines, and ask them what the lead time for a run with custom tooling setup for 500 pcs of micromachined part consisting of 3 pieces.

If you get quoted less then 4 months (assume that when you're ready to go it'll likely become a 6 months queue) and you have the cash to buy the tooling you're in business.

Thanks for coming, Buzz Killington.

Edited October 8, 2010 by statikman

[w0lf]

If you'd rather hold hands and sing kumbaya we can do that too.

[btocamelo]

If you'd rather hold hands and sing kumbaya we can do that too.

I had to laugh...when you're right, you're right....you know your cold advice and insight is always welcome. Well, I purchased a LH CG couple months again, then I pleaded with him to make a Pre-G CG and mentioning the amount of sales he could have due to the many Reps that are out there in need of an accurate CG.

"As we know, from G series onwards, Panerai changed the crown guard to follow the specs of the pre-v models (like 5218-201/A), where it is brushed, and thicker in the centre. Before the G series (pre-G), the crown guard was thinner and in polished finishing (except the lever, which is in brushed bed-blast finishing)."

On the left is the B series PAM112 with the polished crown guard, On the right is the G series PAM112 with brused crown guard:

On the top is the B series PAM112, At the bottom is the G series PAM112 (crown guard is thicker in the centre):

[P4GTR]

do great CAD work.

having an oem part to work from

taking accurate measurements of it

making an accurate technical drawing

order a custom tooling setup (don't expect the shop to have the right keyways, etc. for this job)

pay for the prototype run. (We're talking about several thousand dollars) Is that a fact?

have proper Citizen or Microlution machines

have the minerals to through with this because it's the one part that Richemont will go after you for. (by minerals you mean balls?)

can anyone confirm if this is what is needed, add/remove from the list, and confirm the price and minerals comment?

[BuyersRemorse]

@wolf: Great Idea, you just need a Gen CG photographed on a millimeter paper then or what exactly would you need? What would you need to do your CAD work?

I think we should go 2-3 Ways parallely though so:

Another Idea that I have.

Is anyone here who has a GENand has a Webcam+Line-Laser-Pointer.

If so then we could think about creating a 3D scan. Free Software for that is available here: http://www.david-laserscanner.com/

edit: I am looking for Gens on chrono24.com right now! If I could lower the price to around 3900 EUROS (5429 USD) I would get one of these, disassemble the CG, do some photographs, and "catch-and-release" the watch on ebay again. (Or in the Gen section here )

Better would be if anyone in here already had the gen.

Edited October 8, 2010 by BuyersRemorse

[kbiz]

can anyone confirm if this is what is needed, add/remove from the list, and confirm the price and minerals comment?

1. Getting the Gen CG: $300

2. Taking accurate measurements and making proper complex 5 axis solid model: 15 hours

3. Finding a precision shop with micro 5 axis CNC capability: 6 weeks

4. Finding the minerals you'd need downstairs to challenge the lawsuit happy Richemont: Priceless!

As stated before many have started down this path and many have given up... I'd buy several but the panerai CG is well known by most prototypers and precision machine labs because of all the dumb a**es that have spammed them to death over the last 3 years about fabricating this very CG...

[BuyersRemorse]

Where could you get the Gen CG from ... I am just intrested because I would get one of these for 300$ and put it on my Rep then.

I was always thinking that you can't get them independently from the watch.