Gen ETA 2824-2 vs. chi-com clone?

[CaptainJack]

Hello everyone,

I've done a search for a thread on comparisons between a gen ETA and the Chinese clones

and can't find any.

I'm looking for some side by side pictures, or any tell that would identify a clone from

a gen on the model 2824-2 movement.

I'm going to open the back of my WM9 V3 I bought used and I have a bad feeling about what I'm

going to find inside.

Any help from members would be great.

Thanks,

Jack

[Jkay]

edit: double post

[Jkay]

It's simple. The reversing wheels of a swiss 2824 have 8 holes each. clones have only 4. Also the balance staff shock absorbing spring should have 3 release notches, not 1 like in a clone. If the Chinese ever get off their lazy butts and fix this, you are in a world of hurt to tell an ETA from a Clone without being a master watch smith who knows what a Swiss tear-down should look like with regard to fit and finish.

[CaptainJack]

Thanks for the pictures Jkay, I'm going downstairs right now to open her up.

Jack

[highoeyazmuhudee]

its getting to the point where you cant really tell unless you actually disassemble the major parts, the holes in the reversing wheels are a moot point, finish is also no guarantee. its almost visceral, but once youve disassembled a genuine eta and a clone you can identify the minute differences even if the rest seems to add up. its in the ever so slight discrepancies in shape, that at a glance you know arent quite right.

post some pics, maybe yours contains some easy tells if it is indeed generic.

[CaptainJack]

Here's some shots from last night.

Jack

[kbh]

I doubt you'd ever see the jeweled version of the reversing gear in a rep (last picture). They are considerably more expensive than non jeweled ones.

[Jkay]

Agree. I would call this totally legit. You have a Incabloc spring in there, which is the same company which makes the Novodiac spring .. no problem with the different style.

[CaptainJack]

Well, at least the movement hasn't been swapped out on this V3.

Thanks for your input guys. It still doesn't have a crown that works right.

You can't wind the movement, barley set the date and setting the time requires

holding the crown outward; but at least it's an ETA from BK and I'm sure he'll

get her working right when he has time.

Jack

[Brightight]

I doubt you'd ever see the jeweled version of the reversing gear in a rep (last picture). They are considerably more expensive than non jeweled ones.

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots. Most have also had the 8 hole reversing gear. Neither should be considered a tell. This is a recent clone (received making a noise and sent to me for repair. A good example of Chinese QC!), note the jewels and the reversing gear holes. the only tell is the shock spring (it's not clear in the pic that there is only one groove, but the springs are different between Novodiac and clone -

This is the Novodiac spring, similar but different -

[FxrAndy]

it may be worth you reading this post on TZ UK it is a full tear down and comparison of the seagull variations and linked in there is another comparison.

[Jkay]

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots.

He actually meant the jewels inside of the reversing gears, not the jewels for the reversing gears.

[RWG Technical]

@ CaptJack your movement is a genuine ETA.

We also have a full teardown and review of the Asian 2824-2 right here on RWG, you can read it by clicking here: My review and teardown of the A 2824-2

[CaptainJack]

it may be worth you reading this post on TZ UK it is a full tear down and comparison of the seagull variations and linked in there is another comparison.

Wow, just went through the TZ UK link, some of these guys really take the watch movements seriously!

Jack

[CaptainJack]

Thank you Zigmeister for your link and you input. Great pictorial on the movements.

It is at least a comfort to know that part of the watch is ok, well kind of ok.

The pull out functions still aren't right. I can set the date and the time if I

apply the right english, but I can't wind the movement.

I'm going to ask BK to do some work on this, whats the right word, POS; but in the mean time,

who can you guys recommend to do movement repair and servicing? I screwed myself buying

this used WM9 V3, but I might as well spend the money necessary to get it back up to a level where I'll

actually wear it.

Jack

@ CaptJack your movement is a genuine ETA.

We also have a full teardown and review of the Asian 2824-2 right here on RWG, you can read it by clicking here: My review and teardown of the A 2824-2

[preacher62]

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots. Most have also had the 8 hole reversing gear. Neither should be considered a tell. This is a recent clone (received making a noise and sent to me for repair. A good example of Chinese QC!), note the jewels and the reversing gear holes. the only tell is the shock spring (it's not clear in the pic that there is only one groove, but the springs are different between Novodiac and clone -

This is the Novodiac spring, similar but different -

That has been my experience, as well. (Having serviced many copies and gens) In fact, the Asian made copy has jewels on both ends of the shaft. I have replaced many clone parts with gen-ETA parts with no problems. The winding pinion, the seconds shaft and gear, even the reversers. No problems. The ETA reversers seem to fix the sticking reverser problem with the clones. That being said, I ordered a balance complete for a clone and could not install it. The post on the hairspring that clips into the stud on the beat regulator is a hair larger and I could not make it fit. Most parts, though, seem to be the same.

BTW...I have also, recently, ordered gen ETA reversers and they did not have a jeweled mounting between the gears of the reverser.

Edited October 10, 2010 by preacher62

[Jkay]

In fact, the Asian made copy has jewels on both ends of the shaft.

He didn't mean the reverser shaft jewels. He meant the jewels inside the reversing wheels.

[Brightight]

That has been my experience, as well. (Having serviced many copies and gens) In fact, the Asian made copy has jewels on both ends of the shaft. I have replaced many clone parts with gen-ETA parts with no problems. The winding pinion, the seconds shaft and gear, even the reversers. No problems. The ETA reversers seem to fix the sticking reverser problem with the clones. That being said, I ordered a balance complete for a clone and could not install it. The post on the hairspring that clips into the stud on the beat regulator is a hair larger and I could not make it fit. Most parts, though, seem to be the same.

BTW...I have also, recently, ordered gen ETA reversers and they did not have a jeweled mounting between the gears of the reverser.

You can replace the entire Balance and bridge gen to clone without problems. I have also used the gen 4th (seconds) gear, escapement wheel and mainspring, among others, on the clones.

I must admit I haven't seen the reversers with internal jewels either, Cousins UK certainly don't offer a choice but it figures the high grade movements will have this sort of improvement.

One of the problems with this whole subject is the Chinese are modding things all the time. The Zigmeister's post is now out of date in quite a few respects, the bridges for example now appear interchangeable with the gen with the pegs on the bridges, not the mainplate. Currently the only obvious difference is the shock spring.

[Jkay]

Currently the only obvious difference is the shock spring.

From what I'm reading here, I agree. It's shape and it's release notches.

[FxrAndy]

Every clone 2836-2 I've stripped has had the jewelled reversing gear pivots. Most have also had the 8 hole reversing gear. Neither should be considered a tell. This is a recent clone (received making a noise and sent to me for repair. A good example of Chinese QC!), note the jewels and the reversing gear holes. the only tell is the shock spring (it's not clear in the pic that there is only one groove, but the springs are different between Novodiac and clone -

It is not just the chinese that are sloppy with QC i was helping out at a watch making seminar last weekens and one of the students opened his laco flieger and found 2 screw missing in his swiss eta

[kbh]

Actually Cousins UK does have the jeweled and non jeweled on their web site. I just ordered several of the non-jeweled and remember seeing them. They were something like 3x the cost of the non-jeweled ones.

But I'm too lazy to go look them up again.

[Brightight]

Actually Cousins UK does have the jeweled and non jeweled on their web site. I just ordered several of the non-jeweled and remember seeing them. They were something like 3x the cost of the non-jeweled ones.

But I'm too lazy to go look them up again.

You're right! I usually work from the parts list, which only shows part 1530. But I see Cousins list this plus a 1530.5 which is with jewels. Don't know how many times I've looked at that listing and never noticed it! Getting old is a b*gger

[highoeyazmuhudee]

the non jeweled are for the 17j movements, like the 2846

[kbh]

the non jeweled are for the 17j movements, like the 2846

I've got a gen Eta 2836-2 apart on my desk right now that doesn't have jeweled reverser gears. In fact, I don't believe I've ever seen one on any of my watches of which most are 25j Swiss Eta.