Marv1n Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Guys, There's been a bit of manufacturer vs. manufacturer chat going on here and on other rep and watch boards and I wanted to see what everyone's stand is on the topic. Many people make their purchase decisions based on their understanding that a particular manufacturer is using only in-house movements. In many cases, this assumption is false. Breitling stopped making in-house movements in the early 1950s. Since then, it has used movements from a number of manufacturers such as Venus, Lemania, ETA, Valjoux and Piguet. Kelek (which is owned by Breitling) develops modules for the base movements, some of which are exclusive to Breitling. Kelek does a ton of finishing as well. Heuer was founded in 1860 and has been party to some of the most revolutionary developments in watch manufacture spanning from their first patent for a chronograph in 1882, to their development of very high precision quartz timers in in 1970s. As is the standard in the modern day, TAG (part of LVMH (Louis Vuitton–Moët Hennessy)) outsources and also does modifications to standard ETA movements for inclusion in their watches. Omega was founded on the principle of outsourcing (etablisage) in 1848 by Louis Brandt. In 1880 they set up a proper "manufacture" to fabricate the entire timepiece. It is true that many Omega calibers begin with a base ebauche brought in, but you'd be shocked how many high end manufacturers start with an external base ebauche and modify it, calling the end result their own caliber. IWC is included in this group - they are rebranding modified ETA movements and placing IWC caliber names on them. The Valjoux 7760 (same as the 7750 but in the handwound version) is the basis for the IWC Portugieser Chronograph movements. There is an IWC expert whose job it is to extract by hand all metal bearings from the supplied caliber and replace them with the more expensive jeweled bearings. This is an effort, which will ultimately significantly increase the longevity of the movement. When buying a high end timepiece, you're buying much more than a movement. If you want to talk about in-house movements, the list of names that are pure 100 percent in-house these days is much, much shorter than you'd believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alextor Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Good post Very informative post...thanks for sharing this food for thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Guys, There's been a bit of manufacturer vs. manufacturer chat going on here and on other rep and watch boards and I wanted to see what everyone's stand is on the topic. Many people make their purchase decisions based on their understanding that a particular manufacturer is using only in-house movements. In many cases, this assumption is false. Breitling stopped making in-house movements in the early 1950s. Since then, it has used movements from a number of manufacturers such as Venus, Lemania, ETA, Valjoux and Piguet. Kelek (which is owned by Breitling) develops modules for the base movements, some of which are exclusive to Breitling. Kelek does a ton of finishing as well. Heuer was founded in 1860 and has been party to some of the most revolutionary developments in watch manufacture spanning from their first patent for a chronograph in 1882, to their development of very high precision quartz timers in in 1970s. As is the standard in the modern day, TAG (part of LVMH (Louis Vuitton–Moët Hennessy)) outsources and also does modifications to standard ETA movements for inclusion in their watches. Omega was founded on the principle of outsourcing (etablisage) in 1848 by Louis Brandt. In 1880 they set up a proper "manufacture" to fabricate the entire timepiece. It is true that many Omega calibers begin with a base ebauche brought in, but you'd be shocked how many high end manufacturers start with an external base ebauche and modify it, calling the end result their own caliber. IWC is included in this group - they are rebranding modified ETA movements and placing IWC caliber names on them. The Valjoux 7760 (same as the 7750 but in the handwound version) is the basis for the IWC Portugieser Chronograph movements. There is an IWC expert whose job it is to extract by hand all metal bearings from the supplied caliber and replace them with the more expensive jeweled bearings. This is an effort, which will ultimately significantly increase the longevity of the movement. When buying a high end timepiece, you're buying much more than a movement. If you want to talk about in-house movements, the list of names that are pure 100 percent in-house these days is much, much shorter than you'd believe. I don't think I even heard a question in there. My question is why such an exhaustive demonstration of your knowlege base to ask such a simple question which, I think is, are in house movements superior to modified or un-modified outsourced movements? It might come as something of a surprise to you, but most of the replica devotees here are not in need of an education about movements, their origins, and the history of "haute horologie" watch houses. Unfortunately, there is a personality type that asks a question only in service of hearing themselves talk on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv1n Posted October 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I don't think I even heard a question in there. My question is why such an exhaustive demonstration of your knowlege base to ask such a simple question which, I think is, are in house movements superior to modified or un-modified outsourced movements? It might come as something of a surprise to you, but most of the replica devotees here are not in need of an education about movements, their origins, and the history of "haute horologie" watch houses. Unfortunately, there is a personality type that asks a question only in service of hearing themselves talk on the subject. Um ok - this is a follow on post from another forum (the photo section of this very board) and it was a question that I wanted to hear what my fellow "watch nuts" thought on the topic as it seems as it's less visited than the General Forum. My point is that many people make their decisions based on flawed information (IWC only uses in-house movements, for example) and wanted to start a discussion. I appreciate the feedback on my personality type - perhaps you can suggest a pet to give me the love and attention that I apparently lack and crave. My most humble apologies for offending your delicate sensibilities. I suppose I should return to lurk mode now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrono903 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Honestly, this type of pedantic rodomontade is more suited for TZ. The quality I care most about about is not if the movement was made by the manufacturer rather, will it still be running in 6 months. Thom That being said, you do demonstrate erudition beyond the average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I have never understood the whole "inhouse movement" thing anyway. My father's Tudor Sub with basic ETA ran over 25 years with remarkable accuracy until it needed its first service. If the movement is reliable and accurate I don't really see the big deal... unless you're talking about real high end pieces like Patek, Breguet or Vacheron... which are more like "horologic art" rather than just timepieces. Rolex boasts about "all inhouse movements" but are they really technically superior than ETA ebauches in IWC and Omega? Or did Daytona performance improve when they changed from El Primero to the inhouse movement? And how to measure these things? Is it accuracy, duration, power reserve or finishing that ultimately makes the difference? Of course it might be one factor that justifies the high price for some. Paying premium for a ETA-based watch "can't be a good deal". But then again what watch beyond a Seiko is a "good deal"? It's difficult to justify any luxury item from a purely practical standpoint. I'm not saying the inhouse movement is not important... I'm saying that I just don't completely "get" it (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I don't think I even heard a question in there. My question is why such an exhaustive demonstration of your knowlege base to ask such a simple question which, I think is, are in house movements superior to modified or un-modified outsourced movements? It might come as something of a surprise to you, but most of the replica devotees here are not in need of an education about movements, their origins, and the history of "haute horologie" watch houses. Unfortunately, there is a personality type that asks a question only in service of hearing themselves talk on the subject. I say good post, Marv!! I welcome informative posts such as these and think these forums could use more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Perhaps we are the wrong "target audience" for this discussion. We generally buy our ETA-watches for $200 instead of $2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I have never understood the whole "inhouse movement" thing anyway. My father's Tudor Sub with basic ETA ran over 25 years with remarkable accuracy until it needed its first service. . . . I'm not saying the inhouse movement is not important... I'm saying that I just don't completely "get" it (yet). I would say it has nothing to do with accuracy. It has more to do with the perception that an in-house movement is less mass-produced, more hand-crafted, and thus, somehow, instrinisically more desirable regardless of its accuracy as compared with an off-the-shelf ETA. At some point in time that was probably still true. And I can see how, for the collector, it would be important. I get it. But, today, I'm just not sure how much it applies because I think most mechanical movements today - whether in-house or OEMed - are the result highly mechanized and standardized industrial process, and have largely been so since the Industrial Age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I'm not saying the inhouse movement is not important... I'm saying that I just don't completely "get" it (yet). The inhouse issue was never a serious issue for me. All I care about is getting a good swiss movement. I think it was the tag CEO that said something like "why reinvent the wheel, if someone already makes a good movement use that one". Makes perfect sense but I do like it when a company will at least personalize a movement a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Perhaps we are the wrong "target audience" for this discussion. We generally buy our ETA-watches for $200 instead of $2000. The "just change the channel" argument comes to mind. This is an interesting post, but if you don't fancy it then just simply click to the next one. The good thing about these forums is that there are plenty of posts to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I say good post, Marv!! I welcome informative posts such as these and think these forums could use more. I agree chieftang! The knowledge base here is excellent! Thanks Marv... Tell us more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 I appreciate the post too,,,,,,,,a good reminded that many of us are not exclusive to reps but converse about the same topics as any watch forum. It was funny timing. I was driving home thinking of myself as a movement snob because I prefer the gen swiss made 6497 as opposed to the asian made. I guess it's all relative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 In house movements made hold some kind of allure for some but for me I like the idea that a manufacturer such as ETA produces nothing else but movements, it's comforting to know that all the companies efforts (and cost's) are channeled into only producing the best movement possible. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Psst: a movement can be "swiss made" even if it is only assembled in Switzerland. Parts are usually sourced elsewhere... often from Asia. Rolex does this... a lot. There was a discussion about this a few months ago. A free snickers bar to the person who can find it first! Ready? GO! You gotta be kidding, send me a snickers bar from the frozen wastes of Alaska and it will probably be full of weevils by the time it gets here. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sql_pl Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Great post. Wonder why are they using 7760 manual movement as a base for automatic chrono Portuguese? Why not a 7750? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaviChief Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 Thanks to the OP. I too enjoy reading informative posts like that. It gives me a more well rounded watch knowledge and appreciation. Its interesting too, for some I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlaletom Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 IMHO the topic is not irelevent. Shure it don't aply to reps we buy, but after all we buy reps because we are fans of the gen. For me the opinion i have of the gen brand certanly takes a good part in my rep choice. I don't like bretling as a brand for example and would never consider buying a bret rep regardless of it's acuracy. So does the "in house" thing influance my opinon on gen brand, i'd say YES ! It's not the only thing that matter to me but it has an influance, as the brand history and contribution to the whole wacth history. I for example love PAN for there look regardeless of the movement. But love JLC for being a true manufacture during it whole history, and still "resonably" priced compared to Patek or Lange Regarding lange the fact that it's a reborn compagny in 1994, founeded with Richmont money over a famous historical but dead name, lower it a bit when compared to patek regardless of there incredibly praised movement and quality ... Rolex is appeling to me for there contribution in modern wrist watch evolution (automatic/water proof/screwed down crown ...) And the reason for my interest for particuliar compagny could go on and on .. But the "in house thing" is one of them. Unfortunately there is very few chance i ever buy a "haute horlogerie" watch anyway, unless i win the lotery. But if i was to spend around 5-7k€ on a wacth i would rather have it powered by a JLC movement then an ETA. Perception is relative ... and sometime silly .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vlaletom Posted October 17, 2006 Report Share Posted October 17, 2006 @Vlaletom Are you *sure* you don't like Breitling? Here's the predecessor, by Charles Gigandet... You got me there ! No actualy when i say bret i mostly think of the modern ones. While diging on ebay in search of V72 movement i have come across very nice vintages bret, that i could easyly see on my wrist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv1n Posted October 18, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 @Vlaletom Are you *sure* you don't like Breitling? Here's the predecessor, by Charles Gigandet... That, Sir is a gorgeous watch. Can you provide some details or specs on that? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarks Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Excellent post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Funny that humble Seiko (my first watch collection love) has always made 100% of their watches in house. From movements to crystals to mainsprings, and even lubricants it's ALL made by Seiko Even Rolex could never claim that. They evidently outsource the mainsprings for their in-house movements... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 It all depends on price. I have nothing against ETA movements, but f*** if I'm giving someone like Franck Muller 8 grand for a SS watch powered by a stock 7750. I'm also not going to give Vacheron 10 grand for the manufacture chronograph movement they put in the SS overseas. But, if I can get a manufacture movement for the same price as an ETA, I'll take the manufacture if only because they're more likely to indicate hand craftsmanship, which is what high end watches are all about, IMO. I happily gave JLC 4 grand for my Master Hometime 'cause when you look at what other manufacturers are getting for comparable design, craftsmanship, complications, and name recognition the JLC is an unbelievable bargain--a hand crafted, complicated, beautifully finished dress watch for nearly a grand less than a 3-hand, mass produced, Sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 I don't think I even heard a question in there. My question is why such an exhaustive demonstration of your knowlege base to ask such a simple question which, I think is, are in house movements superior to modified or un-modified outsourced movements? It might come as something of a surprise to you, but most of the replica devotees here are not in need of an education about movements, their origins, and the history of "haute horologie" watch houses. Unfortunately, there is a personality type that asks a question only in service of hearing themselves talk on the subject. I'm not sure I heard a question here either but that's OK - I have more questions than I have answers already. I am sure I learned a few things, and I found the post interesting, but I find the life cycle of a maggot as it relates to human decay to be fascinating so . . . Well, anyway, I thought it was a useful, informative post. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tag Posted October 18, 2006 Report Share Posted October 18, 2006 Good post Marv1n ! Good subject for a debate ! RWG is also about horology, not only about rep despite what some noobs think... Too bad to see so many of these nasty posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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