FYIs, new "colorless" A/R on the latest Noob Factory PAMs, crystals, gaskets and other musings.

[w0lf]

Good news everyone!

Well, not entirely

So there's there's this now much touted and supposedly colorless A/R that came out on the overhauled Noob 111M and 219M. Seems like it will be the choice of A/R on the factory's forthcoming models that are currently on pre-order, notably the PAM29M.

This new A/R is in fact different from the previous 111M batch that had a light but noticeable turquoise tinge if you caught it just right. By the way, the HFactory's A/R on their 005M & 000N is very similar, as in it's no longer colorless as was the case with early models like 219L, 177L, etc., wonder if they're now using the same vendor? Right, but I digress as the subject of this writeup is the new improved A/R on overhauled Noob watches and other bits on my mind all relating to the Noob factory.

This latest batch of Noob 111Ms that I received last night has this transparent A/R among a plethora of other improvements over the the initial batch. More on the other improvements later and in a separate thread. This A/R is indeed pretty transparent in almost all lighting conditions. You might catch a pleasant extremely faint purplish tinge to it if in focused spots, very much like OEM late model crystals. E.g the light source reflection will show an extra faint purple tinge but the whole crystal will not reflex with any color. Not something we've seen before from rep factories.

BUT, a little venom bittereth much sweet. The factory cheated - this new A/R is double-sided, that's how they're getting it to be so effective. If you want further evidence that other models received or will receive the same double-sided A/R, you can see the exact purple tinge that I mentioned in Angus' photos of PAM29M, look carefully at the cyclops.

If you already took delivery of the NF 219M or 111M, another way to show this "wonderful A/R" in action is to breathe on the crystal, the water vapor will fog up the crystal and as it evaporates really quickly look at the watch in focused direct light. There is no doubt the A/R is double sided, and you'll see more reports of this.

So what is the problem with double-sided A/R you ask? It's quite simple, on a watch like Panerai whose crystal is not protected by a raised bezel like Breitlings for example, the outer A/R will scratch and make the crystal look damaged. There is a reason why Officine Panerai coats their crystals only on the inside.

With A/R coating of all kinds, if breach it with something that can make it all the way through the coat to the crystal, it will look like the crystal has a nasty scratch in it. Alternatively, if you just mar the A/R with something blunt that doesn't cut through it all the way, it will look like you've drawn on the the crystal with a pencil, the mark appears like a faint gray hairline. Except you cannot erase this hairline. What's going to end up happening after awhile is the same thing as way back in PAM stone ages-- you'll have watches with damaged top A/R that look like crap. Of course most folks that have a crystal press and some experience tinkering with watches will want to remove this top coat of A/R, even if it means diminishing some of its "completely transparent" prowess.

And that's going to open a whole different can of worms, but let me explain.

In order to remove the top coat you can use several methods depending on the strength of the coat. If it turns out that the new A/R is feeble, you may get away with cape-codding it off or using Polywatch paste + an eraser to strip. Really, this would be best case scenario but I've not attempted it yet so I don't know if it'll work.

On the other hand, if the A/R is hard like the older versions of A/R from Noob factory, you will need to press out the crystal and go at it with rouge and a buffer or dremel with a buffing attachment. It's not a good idea to do this exercise directly on the watch because you'll be working on it for awhile even with fast aggressive compounds like chromium oxide. The crystal will heat up a great deal, really a rather healthy amount, enough to boil water on it. It may melt the crystal the gasket unless the small rim of crystal bed in the case that the crystal touches with its bottom can conduct/spread the heat quickly enough. This surface of contact is so small that I doubt that it will be capable of any decent heat transfer though. So the solution then is to press out the crystal, strip the top A/R coat, and now it's time to press the crystal back into the case - all straightforward but this is when you may find out just how flimsy and fragile the Noob crystal gaskets are.

Yes, the crystal and bezel gaskets are indeed quite flimsy on the noobs going back all the way to the original 111J from late last year. The problem is that they're cut out of nylon, and are very thin. At 0.37-0.40mm thickness they're way too fragile to withstand multiple crystal swaps. For comparison, tther rep gaskets from DSN or cartel are .45 to .50mm thick, premium gaskets like OEM PAM, JimmyzFu and C3 are .55-.57mm thick. I worked on about 60-70 Noob watches beginning with 111J and now I have twenty of the new 111M cases sitting on my bench being reshaped for my PreV project. On some of them, the crystal sits lopsided from the factory (protruding more past one side of the bezel than on the opposite side) because the thin crystal gasket got pinched under the crystal when it was being pressed in at the factory. Nylon compresses and stretches relatively easily so it becomes hard to fit the gasket back in the crystal bed when the crystal's been pressed out and pressed back in once or twice. Same issue is present with bezel gaskets, they get pinched and there's then a gap then between bottom of the bezel and the mid-case. It's more correctable because the bezel does not provide water resistance to the watch the same way the crystal gasket does. So you can just use an exacto knife to amputate the pinched part of the gasket as long as it doesn't mean cutting it completely up.

However, if the bezel has been removed a couple of times, its gasket is flattened and doesn't spring back much so you end up being able to pry the bezel off with your fingers. Meaning it will eventually fall off when worn. Noob factory basically made these gaskets a throw-away item. As much as H-factory case construction sucks in my opinion, at least they got their crystal gasket the right thickness @0.55mm and made from teflon/hytrel instead of the flimsy nylon.

Next stop - the crystal itself. It really came a long way since PAM111J where you could see the inclusions with a naked eye, really not a good crystal at all and even worse A/R. This has been corrected by the Noob factory, the crystal that came out with 005M and 111M releases looks much much better. But where it still lacks is the top edge chamfer. It's ridiculously big, almost twice as big as it should be in fact and it feels like it's getting bigger all the time. It now looks like the Noob is trying to one up Rolex 25-116 plexi with their crystal chamfer.

The issue with the double sided A/R, the crystal and the gaskets, which should have been corrected a long time ago are definitely a "two steps back" kind of thing. I like Noob factory, they really try to push the envelope and consistently put out interesting and difficult to replicate models. They improve on their existing popular models. They stick to OEM case construction. All are excelent points in my book. I used to rip on the HFactory for their corner cutting, non-OEM case construction and other bits, but I don't care about them anymore because I hope the future is behind Noob Factory, they will keep putting out excellent exciting stuff for all of us to enjoy. They just have to remember that when you're better than everyone else, you are held to a much higher standard.

[PeteM]

First off mate.... Thanks for taking the time to share this so coherently... (Do you like that word Mike )

I hadnt taken the time to notice the double AR given I would only buy these reps for the case and would remove the AR from the crystal anyway...

Its a real shame as you say.... 2 steps forward...1 step back...... The Noob Factory has made such great strides in these latest PAMs and do seem to want to push the rep OTB envelope.... but making such a weakness in their AR is definitely one that could harm them... Given how much emphasis is placed by the dealers on this AR being done by the 'exact same guy' that does the Swiss models and to Swiss standards.... (not that I ever really understood that last statement! ) it seems that implied standard is not being met and buyers will sooner rather than later suffer the more obvious flaws of these OTB reps.... ie those that can be easily seen on the wrist..

Add to that the issue of the gasket, which you have explained before, It is potentially every rep collectors worse nightmare....

Most guys buying these to wear do not have the inclination to carry out mods let alone the where with all to carry them out...

So just like the recent issues coming to fruition now with the DLs that Zig raised not long after their release these issues will without doubt come back to haunt the owners in much more obvious and possibly embarassing ways...

Maybe a good argument to start guys thinking about removing their reliance in OTB reps and getting more in to the modding and rep project side of things ...

I am glad I have a stock of Matts gaskets though

Cheers mate

PS... "A little ater bittereth much sweet"

Sorry couldnt resist

[w0lf]

Thanks Pete! I really appreciate your review of my scribbles.

About the saying, I've seen it written both ways actually, but thought that venom would get more traction with the reader

[PeteM]

TBH mate..... I googled it... I have never heard the phrase before but wondered where it came from....

[PeteM]

77 views... not one acknowledment of the time and effort made to write this...

Shame

[w0lf]

Nah, mate, it's all good. You know this is not why I wrote it, if one person read it at least to the 2nd paragraph I'm happy Especially if that person is you.

[HartDoc]

Thanks for the write up. I recently read it on another forum. I have decided that all of my "keeper" reps will get serviced, lumed, and mods to the best possible standards. I'm still a noobie. but I send all of my to the mod gods to do their magic. I'm yet to be disappointed.

[slask111]

Thnx for this information. Well written, even a n00b like me could understand it. Its very important that information like this becomes "public". I really like N00b in general, but without members like you it would take alot longer, if all, for the factory to improve their stuff. Nuff said. Lets celebrate.. its friday

[maxman]

Some excellent Infomation here..thanks for your time and effort.

I might not be as quick to jump on the new 237 after reading this...and I like that model so dam much.

I'll probably still get It...but with a different mind set....thats for sure.

Thanks again.

Mike

[PeteM]

Nah, mate, it's all good. You know this is not why I wrote it, if one person read it at least to the 2nd paragraph I'm happy Especially if that person is you.

Sorry mate I know very well mate that aint why you wrote it.... and I know you are too decent a guy to do anything but willingly share...

I was going to edit my post as I really dont want to detract from a great and informative thread... but it really galls me and I wont cause I aint a decent a guy !

@Max.... If you like it mate just factor in geting AR done.... though I am not sure about the cyclops and if any of our guys can do it...

[squashlovernk]

Thanks M for writing such a thorough and easy to understand write-up. I know it must have taken some time to write as well as to find out first hand the results of your write-up. You truly contribute to this place and many here, including myself, are grateful for your efforts.

[kyuu81]

Thanks for sharing wolf..

From what i know wolf & M always give a good information to the community!

But.. shame.. i'm not the person that always like to post thing up, unless i really cant find any information/don't understand at all..

Cheers..

[panermaniac]

Very interesting and informative.

Thank you for sharing, this is the kind of stuff that this forum is all about!

Please forgive a n00b question but does double AR coating actually double the AR result? Or does the second coating just strengthen the result of the first coating? Does that make sense?

Thanks agian

[Dave123]

Nah, mate, it's all good. You know this is not why I wrote it, if one person read it at least to the 2nd paragraph I'm happy

I tried,really i did. Damn ADD. Too long for me. The part about the frenchman in the bar was classic though,jokes about those guys are always funny...

What forum am i on again?...

[w0lf]

Very interesting and informative.

Thank you for sharing, this is the kind of stuff that this forum is all about!

Please forgive a n00b question but does double AR coating actually double the AR result? Or does the second coating just strengthen the result of the first coating? Does that make sense?

Thanks agian

The properties of A/R are strengthened with double coats, you are minimizing glare from both surfaces that normally can reflect and refract, this can make the crystal almost invisible under certain lighting conditions.

[panermaniac]

The properties of A/R are strengthened with double coats, you are minimizing glare from both surfaces that normally can reflect and refract, this can make the crystal almost invisible under certain lighting conditions.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

I noticed this from Trustytime and Perfect clones: Pam 104/237 Upgraded to Colourless AR / Free Colourless AR Crystal replacement for existing owners

free but $35 for postage... overall it seems like a nice gesture, no?

[cdigi]

Excellent post, thank you for taking the time to write this, great info here I will say that I just recieved the Noom PAM112M and the AR coating / effectiveness seemed a bit weak overall. It just isn't as effective as some other reps I own. Maybe it's the domed crystal that causes more reflections?

[HauteHippie]

Domed crystals definitely pick up more reflections.

[w0lf]

Domed crystals definitely pick up more reflections.

Chief, you definitely know more about A/R than anyone else on the forum. I would love to hear your perspective on returning to double A/R on Panerai reps of which the majority is black dials and no raised bezel, the exception being Submersibles. I can only go by my personal experience with older models that had double "smurf" A/R and they really got unsightly after prolonged wear, as I don't baby my watches.

[RickHiC]

This is interesting info, but personally I would prefer the double-sided AR. I know that's not gen-like, but it just looks so damn good. I haven't had much of a problem with scratching either, but I suppose you have to be careful.

[HauteHippie]

Chief, you definitely know more about A/R than anyone else on the forum. I would love to hear your perspective on returning to double A/R on Panerai reps of which the majority is black dials and no raised bezel, the exception being Submersibles. I can only go by my personal experience with older models that had double "smurf" A/R and they really got unsightly after prolonged wear, as I don't baby my watches.

Ya I don't know why they're going with double AR at the rep factories now. I would prefer they aim to make them look like gens with single AR on the appropriate models, or nothing as on many other models. If the owner wants to go with double AR, he can do the mod himself.

I've done a few 187s and they turn out fantastic, but double AR on a PAM isn't for everyone:

Edited November 12, 2011 by chieftang

[subbiesrock]

Cheers on a very informative, comprehensive description of the new AR, w0lf.

[StormTooper4]

Chief that 187 is awesome. Fantastic looking piece.

[klocklind1]

Thanks for exellent information

To remove the AR coating on the outside I have used the same cleening stuff that is used for cleening the topside on ceramic ovens and this have worked VERY well for me

I simply put some of this cleeningstuff on a "tops" and rub untill the AR is gone, not sure how hard this new AR is but it is worth a try I think

[w0lf]

In the big scheme of things the extra A/R coating doesn't matter that much. I'm sure this will be dealt with in time by either modders or endusers themselves. Also, the factory may put out single A/R on subsequent batches or go to a different mfg. entirely. They also could be reading the forums and realize they made a mistake and newer watches will be single A/R. The actual A/R properties of this current shop that Noob uses are really quite nice so it just needs to be singe sided. One other thing I've not given due consideration is the fact that I buy 5 or more of these at a time so it's possible I have an early BETA batch that got double coated. Either way, to wrap things up on the matter - do your research, buy your dealer first, speak with them directly to sort out any questions you may have prior to ordering.