Devedander Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 (edited) I think the growing expectations you are witnessing may come from a growing influx of members into the replica watch world... I can only imagine that this is becomming more and more mainstream and thus easier and easier for the average joe to find. If this was still underground and unknown enough to be the realm of watch enthusiasts and those who were willing to invest a lot of time and energy into locating sources for it, then I would see it differently... But the mall mentality? Many dealers have very "mall" style websites, complete with credit card and paypal automation... this is not an exclusive or difficult to find world anymore and with these steps I would say the paradigm is changing. I haven't been around long enough to say empirically but I would be that the same thing that happened to the warez scene is happening to replica watches... it becomes more public, more accessible and thus more diluted... It used to be if you could download the new photoshop or generate cd keys for windows installs you were a member of the somewhat elite and had probably run the appropriate gauntlets to prove what kind of person you were and that you were worthy to get the goods and could be trusted not to screw it up for everyone. These people could be trusted to understand upload quotas and the good of the scene as well as how to use and apply hacks and cracks... nowadays people who don't understand what a zip file is are screwing the scene up pretty royally and spreading virus's and spyware like wildfire... Nowadays Joe Schmoe can hop on to mp3.ru or astalavista.box.sk and have his hands on any number of files with no work or understanding of what's realy behind it... I have seen people who download illegal software then call the vendor for support... This is roughly analogous to what seems to be happening to the rep world what with paypal chargebacks and such screwing it all up... Is it a good thing? I would say hardly... but it's what is happening and blaming the influx of users who have not had to run the gauntlet can hardly be blamed on the users, it's just the paradigm changing... I would say the "mallification" of the rep world is brought on as much by those already here as those comming and increasing the change... dealers by making their websites more standarized and accessible and by the very existence of easy to find forums such as these that make an easy entrance with no proverbial "gauntlet" to run for the average joe to prove his worth... It's always better for the elite if the realm stays elite... but just becase it would be nice can hardly be accepted... I wish people would learn enough about computers that when I am helping someone out by phone and ask them to turn off their computer, they don't just turn off their monitor and turn it back on. But I sure appreciate what the spread of computer accptance has done for computer prices, availability and quality... something I think we see reflected in the reps available today as a result of the increased business comming from teh influx to the rep world. It's a sort of double edged sword if you ask me... Edited November 15, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rboehme Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 however we are only speaking of cheap replicas here,.. not the real deal,.. which, imo, makes perfect sense, not only in a situation such as this but, in the majority of purchases we take on via dealers. Mind you, that I am not speaking of any major work here,... I've not the time, or as you say, the inclination,.. no,.. just the simple things, the easy adjustments that are almost so grade school, that an expert would look at you sideways if you were to bring it to him, but be glad that you did, so he can spend a minute and make a pocket full, all the while laughing inside.... My main point however is what seems like a growing mall mentality that spreads unrealistic expectations I would argue that $180 for a used watch is not cheap. It may be far less than a genuine daytona, but it is still a fair amount of money to spend. What you are suggesting is that the buyer (who bought a watch advertised as working) spend an additional $50 on tools, so that he can attempt to fix a watch(with no experience) that he was told was in working order. What you consider easy, others may find difficult. He payed for a working watch, he should get a working watch. If he had bought a watch that was advertised as needing a minor repair, he would be responsible for fixing it. I do not think it is unrealistic to expect a working watch, when you are told you are buying a working watch. He is not complaining about a scratch or the lume not being bright enough, he is complaining about receiving a watch that is not working(that was advertised as working). I think the seller will make it right. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 Otherwise it can be adjusted by anyone with two operating hands and at least one eye, and imo, should not be the responsibility of a seller, who seems to me to be honest. I would not even bother a dealer under such a circumstance, let alone a private seller. I think we need to make allowances with our hobby, and each other, that go even beyond genuine, which as we all know come with many of the same problems we experience with reps. Generally speaking, I agree with you. As I have developed in this hobby, I find myself having, and fixing, more and more problems. As my abilities increase, things I never would have noticed before need fixing - so I fix whatever I can and it would be simply asinine for me to send an MBW back because the cyclops wasn't PERFECTLY aligned, or there was a speck on a dial, or a defective clutch mechanism in a crown . . . On the other hand, I do not think a seller has a right to expect me to know how to do any of that - and it wasn't so long ago that I didn't. I think this buyer should do as he has expressed the intention to do - give the seller reasonable time in light of his apparent travels and then insist that he make it right. If you buy a working watch, it is the responsibility of the seller to receive a working watch. That's not just my interpretation - mail insurance is only available to the sender, and pays to the sender. As a practical matter, I think we should collectively adopt that as the rule, because it is simple and resonable. The seller has no control over packing, and a properly packed watch almost always ships just fine. Just my .02 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 (edited) I have to agree that cheap is in the eyes of the spender... for people who can afford to buy gens these are undoubtably cheap, but another result of the influx of new commers is that the rep world is open to the general public which includes a lot of lower income people... I for one would say $200 for a Rolex is dirt cheap, but we are not talking bout a rolex here... we are talking about a generic watch with Rolex stamped on it... which puts it more fairly in the range of dept store watches... for which $200 is not cheap. It's not really fair to say it's cheap (which by gen standards it is) but in the same breath say it's just a rep (which then changes the standard and it's no longer really cheap). I don't see these as cheap genuines, I see them as expensive generics. Edited November 15, 2006 by Devedander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 If you buy a working watch, it is the responsibility of the seller to receive a working watch. This seems to be a reasonable expectation. There is a big difference between cosmetic flaws (which are very common) and functional flaws. Even if the rep is under 50 (usd) I think it should work and keep decent time. I typically buy from dealers and not members (at least those I don’t know well) because the rules seem clear on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Obeyan Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbj69 Posted November 15, 2006 Report Share Posted November 15, 2006 well now i know who sold it , i would say give him until sunday actually, just because if he is coming back friday from a trip he may have lots of catchup to do , and it will not affect u either way via paypal i feel if u had the problem soon as u recieved the watch and that is what it sounds like to me , then i feel that u r entitled to full reimbursment. now if it was a week or two later being it is an asian 7750 then i would say it is your watch and u got it working fine and now it isnt ,so the seller is done with the transaction. but u say it was like that when received and seller said it was fine when it left him, so i would say it is still the sellers till u get it in your hand and its working as described i have had watches that i modded that had problems and i always have them send it back and i try to fix it for them, even when they were working fine before i sent it , i call that customer service, on a few occasions i have had to replace a movment out of my pocket only because i was responsible of checking out a new watch for them and it was not working when they recieved it (even though it was fine when it left me), but lets say they contact me down the road cause there watch stopped then that is where i draw the line , i mean i will still fix it but for a fee, these r replicas and like [censored] tracey said it is a good idea to know how to do simple things like uncase a movment , cause hands can get bumped around and get hung up on eachother , it is a rarity but it does happen, especially like those DW daytonas(which is a ongoing problem) as to nguyendd , i would give ajoesmith through the weekend if i were u , just because he has been around a while , i doubt he is out to get u , i have had no personal dealing with him that i can remember but i do know and have seen him around for a little bit hope this helps joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 I would argue that $180 for a used watch is not cheap. It may be far less than a genuine daytona, but it is still a fair amount of money to spend. What you are suggesting is that the buyer (who bought a watch advertised as working) spend an additional $50 on tools, so that he can attempt to fix a watch(with no experience) that he was told was in working order. What you consider easy, others may find difficult. He payed for a working watch, he should get a working watch. If he had bought a watch that was advertised as needing a minor repair, he would be responsible for fixing it. I do not think it is unrealistic to expect a working watch, when you are told you are buying a working watch. He is not complaining about a scratch or the lume not being bright enough, he is complaining about receiving a watch that is not working(that was advertised as working). I think the seller will make it right. Robert I think you are looking for arguments that are not there my friend.... You make the assumption that the seller sent a non working watch on purpose, now expects David to fix it, and that I am somehow agreeing with this notion. This is all in your head.. I'm not ranting rules & responsibilities.....you can set up any of those you so choose, and as long as the buying party agrees,.. then have your party your way. I simply say that if one receives a watch with a problem that is easily remedied, {which is the case more often than not,} it would make more sense, not only from a time and money standpoint to simply take care of it, and move on, but from a view of community, of peace and trust, knowing that if also gives you, when you are the seller, grace of the benefit of the doubt. Anyone can make a stand based on a rules .... i.e. buyers expectations ect.... however, this is not a retail outlet,... we are friends that pass around delicate toys that can get broken or misaligned by numerous factors. Simply a fact of life in this game Thus,.. Knowing the road that you travel...if you choose to dismiss the equipment, that would make your journey so much easier... and subsitute in their place, the board to slander,... paypal to sue,..or even the law.... I say to you, that you are in the wrong place, and should never go on the other side of the fence of being the seller,....otherwise risk falling into the very trap you are shouting into existance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythingape Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 I don't know how much this matters in all of this, but having bought a watch from the seller in question, I have nothing but good to say about him. He answered my questions promptly and even tried to help me out later when I was having some issues with the watch... (these issues were my fault alone) Packaging was more than adequate, and it would take some nasty banging around to damage the watch in transit. Of course, this was my experience with him, and others have their own experiences. Lastly I have to join the ones asking you to give him some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 I've bought from this member on three occasions and all three transactions went smoothly and with excellent communication. I would be very surprised if he was out to scr@& you. Give him a little time...not everyone can and will be online and on the forum 24/7. Having said that - I think if you buy a watch advertised as working, you are entitled to one. Unless YOU choose to do so, you should not have to repair it yourself. Unless he advertised it as defective or told you explicitely that the risk of loss or defect in transportation is on you, he should find a way to fix this for you. One last thing: no matter what - a paypal dispute for a replica watch would be an absolutely stupid thing to do and notwithstanding your rightful demand for a functioning watch ...you can expect to get flamed for even suggesting this as an option... I doubt that anyone on this forum (or any of the others for this matter) would be on your side should you choose this route... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 As a practical matter, I think we should collectively adopt that as the rule, because it is simple and resonable. The seller has no control over packing, and a properly packed watch almost always ships just fine. Can you clarify that you actually meant the buyer has no control over packaging? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthebhoy Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 Can you clarify that you actually meant the buyer has no control over packaging? I wondered about that........and this: If you buy a working watch, it is the responsibility of the seller to receive a working watch Bill must have been on the sauce that night. JTB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajoesmith Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 well well well.... im back from my business trip, was actually in shanghai. Im still very busy but dont worry ill sort everything out with david, im a reputable member and all will be well Ill get online later and add more as im still busy Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 well well well.... im back from my business trip, was actually in shanghai. Im still very busy but dont worry ill sort everything out with david, im a reputable member and all will be well Ill get online later and add more as im still busy Joe May I ask what you were doing in Shanghai? I always wanted to go but the closest I ever got was layovers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 Bill must have been on the sauce that night. That's what I thought. I was being polite, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True-Stu Posted November 16, 2006 Report Share Posted November 16, 2006 I purchased a beautiful Omega Constellation Double Eagle from this member and the transaction was outstanding (thanks Joe, forget to tell you that before). The communications were great and the watch was well packaged and in perfect condition. I would be very surprised if he didn't handle this problem with you in a fair and gentlemanly manor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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