level z Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Hi Rolex gurus ... need some input on value of a super franken 6265 with the following specs .. Basically the whole watch is genuine except for the all the hands... very good condition.. works well .. well loved and care for .... - Movement and casing are from Phong (Vietnam) - Bracelet bought in Hong Kong, Genuine (sized for 7 inch wrist 2 spare links) - All hands not GENUINE - Bezel & dial from VRF(Vintage rolex forum) - Movement recently overhaul by spin master Any information on it's value would be greatly appreciated. Please PM me if it is not convenient to list here. Thx guys. best regards lz Edited January 21, 2013 by level z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Nice piece. There are different versions of the Phong case for this model (as is the case with most models), so you definitely want to see pictures of the profile and underside. But off the top of my head I'd say you're in the $3500 to $4k ballpark?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Gen sigma dial, gen bezel pushers and crown make it worth more, I know this piece, (gorgeous by the way!). I'd say its on par with the other one for sale Edited January 21, 2013 by cc33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 Are you chillermusc? Or are you thinking of buying this from him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 21, 2013 Report Share Posted January 21, 2013 You said the whole watch is genuine except for the hands (& Phong case). So the movement is gen also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level z Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 yes .. movement gen ... regards thx guys for the valuable inputs.. regards lz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 In that case, (assuming an unmodified 727 in the case & the bracelet is a solid link 78350) I would estimate that you have about $5,500 worth of gen parts. If the bracelet is an earlier 7205 rivet with 71 ends or a 7835 folded link w/x71 ends, then you can add at least a couple grand to that figure, since those bracelets are both rare & highly sought after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I don't mean to be presumptuous but does phong actually provide gen rolex movements? Far as i know he modifies them to look like the real McCoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level z Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 movement is Genuine ... case is aftermarket mate .. regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 I don't mean to be presumptuous but does phong actually provide gen rolex movements? Far as i know he modifies them to look like the real McCoy That was kind of what I was wonderiing, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janeto72 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 phong doesn't sell gen movements...he modifies them with a combination of gen/rep parts and engraves mainplates to mimic a gen movement. Gen 727's are hard to source.......and usually sell for $7-10000.00 Mint Sigma dials can sell for up to $5000.00 depending on condition and year..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillermusc Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 phong sells gen watches too, for info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janeto72 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 phong sells gen watches too, for info. yes...this is true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Ya my estimate was off.. I was assuming non-gen movement, and didn't notice it was a sigma dial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiesn089 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Could we see a picture of the movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
level z Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 will try to get a shot of it... it is verified by spin as a gen 727 ... regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropbear2008 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Never seen a gen 727 in a rep, only the Phong 727 versions which look gen at first glance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Gen Sigma Dial, cost somewhere between 2.2k€ and 2.5k€ in this condition Phong Case & Back-Case, $850 + $350 => 900€ Gen 6265 bezel, i would say 700-800€ in this condition, but hard to tell with one photo only Gen 78350 bracelet, not more than 300€ if in good conditions. If 571 end links you can add 200€, or 50€ for 557 Phong Valjoux 72 converted to 727... I don't know how it worth really. But let's say 900€ for a Valjoux 72 in good conditions, and he is charging 2250€ ( ) for the movement conversion. I suppose he used aftermarket Rolex signed parts to make this transformation. If one of the You can add 200€ of servicing I guess. Plus another 100-200€ for the initial WM work Crown & tube looks like 703 / 7030 ? Hard to tell. 150€. Add another 200€ if it's 702 or 700 crown / tube P302 pushers x2 400€ Gen T21 plexi => 140€ (if it was sealed - many rep plexi are very good. Phong T21 looks very like gen) Having your Daytona in one shot without looking to any parts / etc. => PRICELESS !!!! Makes a total of ~8.4k€ - 8.8k€ >>>> $11.2k - $11.7k for the parts I.M.O., the price should be less because it is truly impacted by the Valjoux 72 conversion. It really does not worth this kind of money Phong is asking. My 0.02 cents, I never was a big fan of movement conversion with aftermarket parts To me, a fair price for the watch will be somewhere in the 7.5 - 8.5k€, depending of many factors we can't see in one picture R. PS: Finding some gen hands is a must... These are a huge tell when you know the real deal...! (700-900€ if you are enough lucky to find a set in good conditions) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropbear2008 Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 PS: Finding some gen hands is a must... These are a huge tell when you know the real deal...! (700-900€ if you are enough lucky to find a set in good conditions) Wow, I had no idea. (...goes to the parts box and puts his gen hands into a special container) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janeto72 Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Gen Sigma Dial, cost somewhere between 2.2k€ and 2.5k€ in this condition Phong Case & Back-Case, $850 + $350 => 900€ Gen 6265 bezel, i would say 700-800€ in this condition, but hard to tell with one photo only Gen 78350 bracelet, not more than 300€ if in good conditions. If 571 end links you can add 200€, or 50€ for 557 Phong Valjoux 72 converted to 727... I don't know how it worth really. But let's say 900€ for a Valjoux 72 in good conditions, and he is charging 2250€ ( ) for the movement conversion. I suppose he used aftermarket Rolex signed parts to make this transformation. If one of the You can add 200€ of servicing I guess. Plus another 100-200€ for the initial WM work Crown & tube looks like 703 / 7030 ? Hard to tell. 150€. Add another 200€ if it's 702 or 700 crown / tube P302 pushers x2 400€ Gen T21 plexi => 140€ (if it was sealed - many rep plexi are very good. Phong T21 looks very like gen) Having your Daytona in one shot without looking to any parts / etc. => PRICELESS !!!! Makes a total of ~8.4k€ - 8.8k€ >>>> $11.2k - $11.7k for the parts I.M.O., the price should be less because it is truly impacted by the Valjoux 72 conversion. It really does not worth this kind of money Phong is asking. My 0.02 cents, I never was a big fan of movement conversion with aftermarket parts To me, a fair price for the watch will be somewhere in the 7.5 - 8.5k€, depending of many factors we can't see in one picture R. PS: Finding some gen hands is a must... These are a huge tell when you know the real deal...! (700-900€ if you are enough lucky to find a set in good conditions) Valty is right about the cost...........I would say even more on some of the parts...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janeto72 Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 will try to get a shot of it... it is verified by spin as a gen 727 ... regards Post some pics of the movement please...different angles and we`ll be able to tell you...if it`s gen or a phong ~rebuild~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 My guess (and it is a guess) is that to maximize your profit you will have to disassemble the watch and sell for parts - gen on VRF and Phong on a rep forum. I would guess $2-3k for the dial, $1000 for the bezel. All the Phong stuff selling at a rep forum will be severly discounted though. My rule of thumb when I buy Phong stuff is 50% of his price. So if you theoretically paid $3.5k for the Phong stuff (movement and case)I knock it down to $2k or less all in. So now we are at $5-6k for everything other than the bracelet. But that is a guess from a relatively ignorant person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 W. i think you are right. Another problem, you can only sell the genuine parts on VRF, the phong case, the caseback and the movement (if it is a phong modified movement) are all parts that you can only sell here and the other rep forums. That's the Big,Big problem with building one of these wonderful "almost genuine" super frankens. When you decide to sell, you need to be prepared to take a real hit. A genuine Rolex if taken care of, especially one in nice condition is going to at least hold it's value, and probably appreciate over time. Reps on the other hand will almost always depreciate. i have seen this for almost 10 years, from my days on TRC and now RWG, i spent a lot of money modding (not anything like you spent on your Daytona) but when it came time to sell, folks acted like I was nuts to list a MBW 1665 SD for 900.00 USD! I had guys actually post "Man, this is a 400.00 USD watch, how can you ask 900.00 USD for it"? Well because there are probably 600.00 USD worth of genuine parts, plus the cost of getting it modded, so it's really a bargain. Maybe to me it is, but not to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valty Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 @panerai153, You are 100% right Selling high end reps is always a problem, especially when the price goes high. I think the only exception is the manual Daytona's, just because the gen are sold for too much money ($22-25k for the entry ?). So making a near-gen build for 1/2 or 1/3 of the gen price is not a bad idea. I see many frankens Daytona's on eBay go with very high prices (and they are sold as franken) @Watchmeister, I strongly think this kind of build should not sell for less than $9.5k / $10k, even if the Phong's stuff is highly depreciable in terms of value, it is still here and working fine I agree about the spare parts deprecation, but building this kind of Dayto is truly one of the harder build in the Rolex world. I started buying my parts for my 2 frankens 1,5 years ago, and still don't have any "result"... Too much money, too valuable stuff, too fragile pieces, I had a hard time to find a WM in my country to do my project safely @dropbear, Genuine T hands for manual Daytona's are too hard to find. Even dials are easy to catch... This is probably why the prices are sky-rocketing....!!! Indeed, there is no good quality aftermarket hands now. When you compare aftermarket hands VS the genuine, there is so much differences in terms of design & quality... Some examples : - I was amazed to see none of the aftermarket sub-dial hands have sharp ends like the original. None of them are the correct size, too. And I'm not talking if you want to go with a V726, witch have different pinion sizes than V72 or Rolex movements (chrono seconds pinion is much larger - that's a big problem). - If you are looking the chrono seconds hands from Phong, most of them are not perfectly cut at each end. The arrow is not sharp as it should, and the "ball" at the other end is never like the original (plus too much material at the end, due of the cut problem) - When you try to fit... let's say some DW hands on a V726. The chrono seconds hand have to be hardly modded, and considering it's made of aluminum, it breaks / bent very easily on resets. - Do not compare the thickness and profile of aftermarket hands vs gen hands. Never. Aftermarket hands are very flat, and too thin (= very fragile). If you look at gen hands, they are rounded, not flat, thick, my english is too poor to find the right definition, but I would say they are in "3D", when the AM hands are in "2D". This makes a lot of visual differences, not talking about the resistance of the hands in the time. Gen hands are made of brass or white gold, witch is more resistant than any aftermarket hands (I bet they are all made of aluminum). This way, they can be modded for fitting on V72 or V726 without too much worries if the WM is good... Today, I would be very worried to have a rep Daytona without gen hands. I should make a photo comparison one day... it worth the shot to be seen @OP I would love to see a macro photo of each sub-dial, especially the right one. Something looks strange in your photo, but it's hard to tell because the quality is too low. But I'm maybe wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillermusc Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 (edited) it will come with phong's modified movement and sorry I only have a iPhone 4S. Edited January 24, 2013 by chillermusc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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