big crown sub project: raffles or trustytime for case

[WolFF-1]

So starting a new project

 

trying to make a big crown vintage sub.

 

which of these 2 would you use as a starting point. 

 

w w w ttw888.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_11&products_id=6364

 

or

 

w w w  ebay.com/itm/SUBMARINER-Milsub-007-Bond-Watch-Case-6538-Type-2-/151050435722?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232b4ebc8a

 

i would love a yuki case, but i cant do that $$$

 

does anyone know what size of dial, the trustytime takes?

 

the only thing i plan on keeping between these 2 cases are the case,caseback,bezel and bezel insert 

 

i plan on using a athaya 8mm crown, clark t19,  eta2836 or something eta ,  gilt dial,and hands are undetermined as of yet. though i will be using a white big ball seconds hand.

 

also not sure if i will change the bezel insert ive been trying to research who makes the best red triangle with a decent pearl.

 

so thoughts, suggestions, concerns.  i just want everything to work.

 

thinking something like this, but without the aged look...

Edited September 17, 2013 by WolFF-1

[stevedrk]

Cases come from same source so either is fine. Helenarou has a new red triangle insert with nice Pearl. You could always replace it with Ofrei Pearl too. Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

Edited September 17, 2013 by stevedrk

[stevedrk]

I have a Rafflestime case I'm going to put up for sale. I've done a lot of work on it. Softened and slightly aged case. Add chamfer. Drilled lugs. Athaya crown/tube installed. BCL hen like plexi installed. Ofrei Pearl.

Gonna list it for$180 if interested.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

[EMM]

 Helenarou has a new red triangle insert with nice Pearl.

 

Link, please.  

 

Is Ofrei's pearl better than Yuki?

[stevedrk]

Link, please.  

 

Is Ofrei's pearl better than Yuki?

 

In my opinion, yes. My understanding is the Ofrei pearl is currently used as replacement during service.

 

I don't have a link yet. I saw photos via email. I'll see if I can dig them up.

Edited September 17, 2013 by stevedrk

[JoeyB]

For the money, I think Rafflestime case is a good one. You can get most of the parts you need from him as well. My 6204 is from the cartel and my 6538 is the 'Tiger' case available from Rafflestime and the Hong Kong Ebay cases. 

 

As to the pearl, I prefer an aged pearl rather than a new looking one. I remove the old pearl, put a tiny drop of lume in the concave hole, and fill using a toothpick with one tiny drop of 5 minute epoxy. It will self level, looking rounded and shiny. 

 

 

 

[kin tama]

Where did you get the pencil hands in the first photo joey? Best regards kin tama

[WolFF-1]

-steve - thanks but im going to avoid the aged look. want it looking like it was brand spankin new back in the late 50s

 

-emm - its on ofrei.com/page_150.html     - towards the bottom

 

i also have that on my list of maybe i should order

 

are there any other cases i havent seen that are under the 400 dollar range ?

 

 

Joey- i have been reading all of your threads. awesome looking peices! 

what is the difference from the cartel to the raffles cases. i understand there are no cartel/silix cases available right now

 

and what crystal do you have in your watches ?

Edited September 17, 2013 by WolFF-1

[Dlf]

Just to confirm...

The raffles case is the silix case.

The case from onlinestorehk HK is different (requires smaller dials) coin edge is different.

[JoeyB]

Where did you get the pencil hands in the first photo joey? Best regards kin tama

The minute hand is for a Tudor to fit the ETA 2846 in it. The hour and minute hands are 'homemade', pieces soldered together. All were lightly sanded with 1500 grit to remove the plating and be bare brass for the 'gilt look'. 

[EMM]

-emm - its on ofrei.com/page_150.html     - towards the bottom

 

and what crystal do you have in your watches ?

I meant the link to the helenarou insert with the red triangle.

 

I've seen pics of it, but how do I get one?

 

As far as plexis, I have used the sternkreuz with good results.  It's dirt cheap, too.  Akira just made me a tropical dial 6538 using one.

 

Here's a couple of pics he took:

 

[JoeyB]

Joey- i have been reading all of your threads. awesome looking peices! 

what is the difference from the cartel to the raffles cases. i understand there are no cartel/silix cases available right now

 

and what crystal do you have in your watches ?

Thank you! The big difference is the dial diameter. As i recall, the 'Tiger' case is around 29mm diameter. I make my own dials, so the size is no real issue for me. 

 

Andrew/TrustyTime has at least a dozen no crown-guard Subs listed. Plus 3 or 4 'new for September'.Are they out of all of them?

http://www.ttw888.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_11&products_id=6342

 

I use Clark's crystals in all my watches. The 6538 is a 'rounded' T19, I think there are 3 styles of the T19. I don't remember what is in the 6204, it just looked right to me and it fit! Gary Clark makes his own acrylic crystals. They are very clear and I've had little to no distortion, and the price is right.

 

Just make sure with Gary Clark or Ken at Rafflestime to mention RWG. It will help. 

[stevedrk]

Another option is the Helenarou case. About $260 with engraving and Rolex branded crown. My aging is very subtle as I don't like the beat to [censored] look. I like it to look like a well cared for but softened with time. I'm getting a Helenarou with 7922 engraving to match my dial. If I do a 6538 I'll probably stick with the Rafflestime. Here is my Rafflestime case: Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

Edited September 18, 2013 by stevedrk

[WolFF-1]

Emm- for the insert you have to contact mk@helenarou he doesnt have it up on ebay or his website yet.. but he responds fast. plus the red one has a big pearl in it.

 

i already have a helenarou branded version.. awesome watch. however the crown sorta bugs me, its too far out from the case

and i cant find a superdome that will fit it, i already have a clark t19,  so thats why im going to do a totally new watch. with different specs

 

red triangle, gold dial, white seconds, superdome. and if i can get a slimmer case so it sits lower on my wrist then great.

 

also i really like the athaya crown.

 

i also think helenarou makes awesome dials, so maybe if i can get a case that holds a 29mm that would be great too. (so maybe tiger case is out as i hear they are 27mm)

also raffles has some nice gilt dials.

if i could afford it, id get a yuki, with one of his dials. but i was quoted something like 780 just for the case. which is way too crazy for me.

 

are ingods cases closer to yuki or raffles ? i just started to read about his stuff. but mixed reviews. not sure on the movement holder for it either.

 

are there any other white seconds hands besides onlinestorehk ?

[Nanuq]

Bravo for doing your own homework!

I had a Big Crown build based on the Raffles case with the Athaya crown, gilt dial and white seconds hand. It came out really good. If you want to go with the Tiger case, I have just the dial for you, it's about 27 mm, tropical brown with gilt text. $100 out the door.

If you do a 6538 build, it's supposed to be tall, with a thick case back. Otherwise you're looking at a 6536 build, with a lower profile, and the "wrong" dial. You can't really build a believable 6538 with a low profile.

The Raffles case has a peculiar divot where the tube comes out of the case. When you screw in the Athaya tube, it countersinks into the divot, and it's iffy whether the crown will screw all the way down to seal before it hits the case. Ziggy worked mine over, and filled that divot with some metal epoxy, then shaped it and tapped threads so the crown screws down right next to the case without countersinking.

In the end mine came out very good, but the Raffles case has the incorrect case back, so it has a lower profile like a 6536. In the end that's what bugged me, so I went Big Gonzo on my next 6538 build, with an MQ case.

Here are some pics showing how my Raffles came out.

[Nanuq]

More pics of what you can do with the Raffles case.

[WolFF-1]

Nanuq - wow. That is awesome. That is pretty much what I was wanting. What movement you use ? You mind listing the specs?

I have tried to do as much homework as I can. I hate asking dumb questions. Though sometimes we all can't help it.

I haven't heard of MQ where would I find this?

Thanks for all the info !

[Nanuq]

Trust me, you don't want to know what MQ means... crazy expensive and beyond frustrating to coax the right parts out of him.

Mine was a gift from a wonderful member here, then I jazzed it up. It was a Silix (Raffles) piece with the 21J movement. I flooded and killed the movement so off it went to Ziggy. He installed a 2836 ETA movement and the Athaya crown and tube. It was a tight squeeze to get the tube in without deforming the caseback sealing surface. Big Dazza is the one that did the dial and hands, and the aging (cough) was done by me. The insert was still a little too thick even after machining the bezel deeper for it. No biggie, that's why God made epoxy.

That watch spent 2 weeks swimming and diving in Hawaii before I sold it, and it was spectacularly readable underwater.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

the Helenarou case is very very nice in its own right, but only vaguely resembles a Rolex big crown.

[Nanuq]

What he said. The original 6538 has amazingly svelte curves and only Phong and MQ come close to matching it.

They say the devil is in the details, and truer words were never spoken. Many people couldn't identify a real Big Crown case, but close matches are out there ... and you'll pay dearly for them. Get ready to drop a Grover on something most people would never recognize.

Then you get to dials. Yes there are very nice $300 pieces, but soon you get caught up again in the devil's details and before you know it you're spending $1,500 for a dial, glad for the opportunity.

Then you need a genuine 8mm Big Crown to match your expensive case and dial, another $1,000 out the window.

And you can't bear to cut the feet off your $1,500 dial so you go looking for a gen 1030 movement, for another $1,000.

What's this? You want a genuine Tropic-17 crystal for your build? Hah, good luck ... your money isn't making one appear from the ether of rare vintage parts.

Hmmmm. You need a bezel upgrade you say? That'll be $1,000 please. Inserts are sold separately. As are the pearls.

Before you know it you're $4,500 into a frankenwatch that 99% of the public cannot tell from a $500 Raffles build. And you're scared to use the thing because of the investment.

Welcome to the madness.

[WolFF-1]

Hahahaha !!!!

That's so true. I thought that if I got a helenarou it would satisfy my urge for a vintage no crown gaurd sub. It's a fantastic watxh. Don't get me wrong. Awesome in its own right. Semi domed sapphire. Polished bezel. Gilt dial with awesome lume. Big crown. But it's like not as close as say I think it should be.

So this project is my first lets say sourced parts watch. I'm gonna have someone make it once I finish getting all the parts. I like yukis stuff but priced out with what I want for it. I'm pretty close to 1300-1400 at least. I can't justify that for a clone with an eta. I'd rather source as many gen rolex parts as possible but like you said above. Then we're at pretty much 5k. Which is still good. But I'm far away from that, and like you said. You'll be too scared to wear it.

So I think I'm gonna stick to my original plan here and I'm just waiting to get a email confirming the size of the trusty time dial. I read both its a 29-30mm like the raffles and that it is close to a gen and that 27mm max like the tiger. Once I know that then ill pull the trigger and stsrt to get all the other bits as well

Pretty much look like yours above. Was that a yuki bracelet on yours ? I was thinking of getting one when he gets more in stock.

[mr_slippery]

Before you know it you're $4,500 into a frankenwatch that 99% of the public cannot tell from a $500 Raffles build.

Make that 99.9% of the public including ADs. I wore my cartel-cased 5508 rep into Torneau on 57 Street yesterday because I wanted to try on a couple of gens before springing for the reps (how's that for a switcheroo?).

Anyway, I had two different guys working there compliment me on it. Spending the last two weeks on RWG has left me wanting to say "yes, the face, insert and hands aging was done well, but can't you see that my bezel isn't properly coin-edged and my lug holes are too small?!!" But I held in the madness, smiled, said thanks, and asked to try on the DSSD. (Kinda bulky.)

[mr_slippery]

But to return to the original topic, I asked Ken at raffletimes for a shot from the side to check how good the coin-edge is done.  I'd say that the bezel shape is excellent, the engraving is good, and the lug shape is not particularly close to gen but as good as anything I've seen below the Phong/Yuki price range.  I assume he wouldn't mind me sharing them here:

 

 

 

 

[woof*]

There's some really cool reps of no cg subs posted here.

 

I have always started my vintage reps with the dial. A few years ago I bought a pretty nice dial second hand, and then discovered the case/dial issues.

 

So off to search for a case, and this is what I found:

 

 

Rolex sub, 6538 case 37mm, dial 26.5mm

 

Yuki case 37mm, dial 27mm

 

Ndt case 38mm, dial 27mm

 

Ingod44 dial 26.5mm

 

Raffles case 38.5, 28mm dial

 

Helenarou/Rouhelena case 39mm, 29mm dial

 

Tiger Tudor case 37.5mm, 29mm dial

 

Phong case (assume 37mm) dial 26mm

 

MQ case (assume 37mm) dial 27mm

 

As noted, the rep cases and dials are all over the map.

 

What I found out, other than Yuki (6-700$, Phong (14-1500$), and MQ (omg ????$)....there are no rep 37mm cases that accept a correct 26.5/27mm dial.

 

I never looked into the Silex or cartel watches and don't know much about sizes there.

 

Whole thing is frustrating for me, I have seen many of the 29mm dialed watches and they just don't work for me, let alone the subtleties of the case curves Nanuq mentioned.

 

I wish MBW had made this series watch. Someday I might afford a phong..we will see.

 

Eta: I love this style sub, and just like vintage Daytona's- this is one watch that really takes money to get close.

[mr_slippery]

Ken at Rafflestime just told me his case takes a 29mm dial.