What Can Be Expected From A Good Rep?

[mrnixon]

I am new here at the forum, but since I recognized it, I have read alot with large interest. My initial expectation of a good replica such as a 300 usd Panerai copy was that I should get something rather good. My logic was that the movement should be rather similar or the same as in cheaper Swiss brands such as Certina which uses non modified ETA movement, and that the rest of the watch ought to be of fairly good quality it least. But since I started reading I have come across stories about crystals which are cracking, spring bars which are pushed into their holes (ie one has to drill new holes and get new spring bars), swiss eta movements deviating 3 minutes per day etc.

So my question is, how good is a good rep for 300 usd with a Swiss ETA? Is it up to the standard of a cheap (around 300-600 usd) swiss watch such as Tissot, Certina etc, or should I expect buying a rep means that I have to visit my watch maker frequently, trying to find spareparts on the net etc. Is it realistic to expect that the rep will last as long as for example a longiness which also uses unmodified eta movements.

I know, the question might appear as a bit naive, but I would still be interested in hearing your experiences and views.

Thanks in advance

U

Edited December 2, 2006 by mrnixon

[Pugwash]

So my question is, how good is a good rep for 300 usd with a Swiss ETA? Is it up to the standard of a cheap (around 300-600 usd) swiss watch such as Tissot, Certina etc,

Before I go off on a long diatribe, can you clarify some things for me? What $300 ETA reps are you talking about? Also, where can I get a decent Tissot with an ETA 2836/2824 with Sapphire new for $300?

I just want to make sure you're not expecting an apples vs. oranges debate.

[mrnixon]

Sure, I can show you where you can get an automatic Tissot in a similar price range as for example a Pam 1950.

http://cgi.ebay.com/TISSOT-SEASTAR-1000-AU...1QQcmdZViewItem

I have personally no experience from Tissot, but I guess they offer fairly good value for money. The one in the link for example (I just spent 30 seconds on Ebay, so I am sure you can find better offers if you do more research), costs 385 usd and then you get saphire crystal, a fully working bezel, screw down crown, safety clasp and 300 m water resistance and 2 years warranty. It does not state movement but I guess it is one of the cheaper ETAs.

But my main point was not to discuss details of the lower prized swiss brands, I was more interested in it as a reference when asking for your views of how much can I expect from a good quality replica. Maybe I should also then specify a little more about the replica. What I am thinking about is a good quality replica based one a swiss movement without any functions appart maybe from date. Ie not chronograph functions etc. My impression is that you have to pay around 300 usd for the better Rolex, Panerai, AP reps.

So my question is, can I expect similar quality from for example the top of the line Panerai or Rolex rep as from a Tissot? Or are the reps better? If I can expect less, in what areas, lower finish, lower quality movement? etc

Very thankful for comments from people who are more experienced on this matter.

U

[Pugwash]

My impression is that you have to pay around 300 usd for the better Rolex, Panerai, AP reps.

I have never paid $300 for a rep. However, let's pretend that your $399 (delivered) grey-import Tissot is $300 and that a $185 ETA Sub is $300. In this case, the Tissot is a better option as it's warrantied and serviced. To get the Sub to the same spec would cost the price of a service.

The ETA reps we get are good, but may require a final service to be as good as a gen. Apart from that, I'd put a $200 rep against a $300 gen any day.

[mrnixon]

Now, the issue I wanted to discuss was not so much 80 usd up or down on the Tissots. But just to avoid misunderstandings here is roughly what one can get in terms of tissot for 300 usd:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-TISSOT-Watch-PRS-5...1QQcmdZViewItem

What I am interested in is to get a really good replica, which will require no modifications or other problems and I am also willing to pay a little more for that. The one with asian movements are around 185 usd but since I got the impression that Swiss Etas are of better quality and I dont know how to modify, repair etc I think it is a good idea for me to pay the 100 extra for a Swiss movement:

http://www.trustytime.com/index.php?main_p...products_id=578

I am not an expert on reps so maybe I have been looking at the wrong places but at Trustys the best panerais are 300 usd. I also get the impression that Andrew at Trusty is a very reliable and respected seller, which I also think it is important considering risks with internet trading in general.

So then, can I have pretty much the same expectations on a replica as I can on the tissot? I guess a tissot should last for 10-15 years if I give it a couple of services. Can I expect something like that for a good replica also? If not, what would you say are the weak sides of buying a replica?

[Pugwash]

I am not an expert on reps so maybe I have been looking at the wrong places but at Trustys the best panerais are 300 usd. I also get the impression that Andrew at Trusty is a very reliable and respected seller, which I also think it is important considering risks with internet trading in general.

This is what I was afraid of. You're comparing replica Panerais with Gen Automatics, and that way only leads to pain and despair. This is the apples vs oranges I was trying to avoid.

A watch with an ETA movement that's the equivalent of your Tissot is $150-$185. For replica Panerais, you need to compare them with equivalent Gens, like the $1000 RWX.

Yes, if you compare replicas with equivalent gens (Rolex Sub rep vs Tissot Seastars or Panerai Fiddy rep vs RWX) then the replicas come out at better value for money.

[By-Tor]

So then, can I have pretty much the same expectations on a replica as I can on the tissot? I guess a tissot should last for 10-15 years if I give it a couple of services. Can I expect something like that for a good replica also? If not, what would you say are the weak sides of buying a replica?

I don't see any reason why the basic ETA movements in our reps wouldn't last for 15 years. However, it's not a bad idea to service your automatic movement after 5-6 years of use.

According to Ziggy they'll last a lifetime (if you take good care of them). My father's Tudor Submariner with basic ETA movement lasted for 25 years before it needed to be serviced and regulated.

The weak parts in the ETA reps isn't the movement... but crown, bracelets, clasps, etc. might be the "weak links". Just don't abuse your watches and they'll last. Treat them with "silk gloves"... if you know what I mean. Members have 4-5 year old ETA reps and I rarely hear them having any problems. But then again there are even older reps with Asian automatics that run perfectly fine, too.

[Pugwash]

So then, can I have pretty much the same expectations on a replica as I can on the tissot? I guess a tissot should last for 10-15 years if I give it a couple of services. Can I expect something like that for a good replica also? If not, what would you say are the weak sides of buying a replica?

If you're looking at a Panerai rep, you can get an Asian one that should last for $110, or a Swiss one for a bit more that will last (if you take care of it with services, like the gen) as long as a gen.

[tvt]

Seems like I am always the guy taking this stance on the fake watch boards... but here it goes again.

Fake watches have no quality control, that is the first thing you must understand. It is not all that uncommon to get brand new fake watches which arrive ihn a totally non functioning state. This is not the norm but it happens ona regular basis and is a direct cause of lack of quality control. Now it IS possible to have gens show up DOA as well (I had a gen Tag Monico arrive that way)but it is very rare, again because any quality gen brand has very good quality control ans that really makes a big difference.

You will see that QC difference not just with the movement but also the fit and finish of the case and band. In general the fakes simply cannot match the gens in this dept. (though there are always exceptions.)

The next thing you need to realize is that unlike the world of gens buying fake watches is much more confusing and can vary from dealer to dealer and watch to watch. Some dealers will call a movement a "swiss ETA XXXX" when in fact it is a Chinese copy of such a movement. There seems to be little standardization in that right now as well. For example dealers will always be honest and say "Asain 7750" meaning it is a Chinese copy of a Swiss ETA 7750 movement (which in my opinion is not of high quality but others strongly disagree with me). However the same dealer that says he has Asian 7750 movements may also claim a watch has an ETA so and so which is really just a Chinese copy. Sometimes it is stated and some times it is not. If you know what you are doing you can tell it is a copy because of the price, but most people, especially newbies, have no clue. So just buying the thing can be trickier than you would encounter with a gen.

Next you will hear people talk about how ANY automatic movement needs to be serviced, gen or fake... and this is true. HOWEVER no genuine automatic movement will need to be serviced right out of the box. They will last AT LEAST 5 years before needing to have them looked at at likely much longer. For an inexpensive gen you may decide simply to move on to a new watch by the time it needs servicing or you may decide to go ahead and maintain it. If you choose to maintain it ANY watch repair place can service it for you and it will be cheap (under $100 generally for a basic movement). With fakes you MAY have to service it right away, you MAY have the watch seize up much, much sooner than with gens (this all goes back to the QC issues again). If you do need it serviced your choices are much more limited because most repair shops will simply not deal with fakes. You may be able to find someone locally or you could send it to one of the members of this board who will service them for you but you will end up paying a bit more and having more of a hassle getting it done (and you have to hope that if the watch does last 5 years that at that time you are still contected enough to the board to get someone to help you). Then again you MAY get a watch that runs every bit as well as any gen and is a pleasure to own, but again it is a MAYBE situation.

Lets say something else breaks, a bezel or soemthing a year after you have it. With a gen you are most certainly able to get parts, with a fake it is a total crap shoot and unlikely that you will be able to find parts to repair it (and again, find a person to do those repairs).

I paint this somewhat negative picture of fakes for you not because I want to discourage you but rather because you need to have realistic expectations. If you are concerned about some of the issues you seem concerned with you are probably better off going with a gen. No one is buying a fake watch because they love the quality of them, they are buying them because they have the name and the look of much more expensive watches. After that there are MANY reasons of exactly why peopel buy fakes, they range from odd attempts to impress people all the way up to simply enjoying the hunt and the fun they get out of it...any of which are fine. but again, quality and ease of service would not be good reasons to buy a fake watch, you may get those things but then again you may not. With a gen you KNOW what you are getting and you sound liek someone who would feel better KNOWING you will get what you pay for.

Good luck.

[mrnixon]

I don't see any reason why the basic ETA movements in our reps wouldn't last for 15 years. However, it's not a bad idea to service your automatic movement after 5-6 years of use.

According to The Zigmeister they'll last a lifetime (if you take good care of them). My father's Tudor Submariner with basic ETA movement lasted for 25 years before it needed to be serviced and regulated.

The weak parts in the ETA reps isn't the movement... but crown, bracelets, clasps, etc. might be the "weak links". Just don't abuse your watches and they'll last. Treat them with "silk gloves"... if you know what I mean. Members have 4-5 year old ETA reps and I rarely hear them having any problems. But then again there are even older reps with Asian automatics that run perfectly fine, too.

Thanks a lot for your answer. It was something like your reply I was hoping to read. I guess on a rep Panerai not much can go wrong? The crown/closing mechanism is so simple I guess it should last for ever? Since I never go swimming with my watches it does not matter so much if they are water proof or not.

I have been collecting genuine watches for a long time, mainly vintage Rolex sports models so I am rather familiar with being careful with my watches.

Thanks again for your answer. I guess I will go for one of those beautiful Pam 1950 then.

[Pugwash]

Next you will hear people talk about how ANY automatic movement needs to be serviced, gen or fake... and this is true. HOWEVER no genuine automatic movement will need to be serviced right out of the box.

You keep saying this and you keep missing the point. Gens are serviced just before they're put in the box- Reps aren't. That is the sum total difference between the movements. You're not the only one saying this, as this is pretty much understood as a given here.

Yes, QC is lower and there are no warranties, and this is reflected in the price.

[mrnixon]

Seems like I am always the guy taking this stance on the fake watch boards... but here it goes again.

Thanks tvt for your and very informing answer. Although it is of course nice to read the potential problems, I aggree with you, it is better to go in to this with open eayes and to know what to expect. My logic was that a Pam would be a perfect rep watch since I get the impression that there are not so many things that can go wrong, no bezel, no screw crown, no link etc. So I guess there is not much to worry about on a pam appart from the spring bar and the fact that the saphire crystal seems to explode sometimes.

Do you know if all/most of the dealers are selling watches from the same manufacturers, or if all the ones mentioned here are responsible for their own watches and involved in the production, quality control etc.

[tvt]

@Pugwash:

>>>>You keep saying this and you keep missing the point. Gens are serviced just before they're put in the box- Reps aren't. That is the sum total difference between the movements.<<<

You just said my exact point. I am not missing the point, you just made my point in fact. If a gen is shipped in perfect condition and a fake (assuming a fake wuth a gen ETA in it) is potentially NOT shipped in perfect condition and needs to be serviced right our of the box well that is additional money and a pain to deal with. You may DOUBLE the cost of a watch just on having it serviced. People who say "yes, but you also need to service gens" miss the point that you will need to CONTINUE to service the fake as well. So that means service #1 for the fake is the first day you own it, service #2 is lets say 5 years later. Witht he gen service #1 is five years after you get it so you ALWAYS have that extra money you spent on the fake in the equation, they never equal out.

The bottom line here is simply that I am a realist. I love good fake watches and I love good genuine watches but I do not close my eyes to the problems of the fakes, or the costs of the gens. They are both great as long as you manage expectations (fakes simply are not of the same quality as gens, it goes far beyond simply the movement) but you are correct that this difference of quality of obviously reflected in the price. I just liek to remember that there is no free lunch, you know what I mean? You are getting what you pay for whichever way you go.

@Mrnixon:

I agree with you that panerai are a good choice because they are almost the perfect watch to fake. they are very simple and have very few parts. The gens use basic stock ETA movements so it is easy to replicate those as well (or even use the real deal). Because genuine PAMs are so based on collectors swapping bands there are MANY different cool bands available as well as the gen bands of course (an absolute MUST in my opinion for any fake PAM). Also, because the fakes often use gen ETA movements you can find parts for them. So yes, a PAM would be an excellent choice. Just make sure you educate yourself enough to know that you are getting one with a GENUINE ETA movement. You will find a coupel things in this regard. First of all many of the models use Asian 7750 copies. I do not want to re-open a debate about whether this is a good or bad movement but it is not a genuine, so be aware of that. Also within the last year or so there has been an influx of asian "Unitas" movements which are used in many of the mechanical hand wind PAMS (PAM 111 etc.). These models can be had with genuien ETA movements OR Chinese copy movements which are no where near the quality and in some cases have a fatal flaw. So you really have to be careful that you are buying what you think you are. Teh dealers here will be honest with you when you ask but the web sites often use terms loosely. Again, you may see the term ETA used when it is fact a copy. Most dealers do not directly manufacture the watches but rather act as middle medn, they are however very well versed in what is available.

[kanerich]

Seems like I am always the guy taking this stance on the fake watch boards... but here it goes again.

Good luck.

Seems like I am always the guy supporting tvt on the fake watch boards. He is right. Reps are fun and neat for a variety of reasons, but gen expectations of QC or reliability are probably not among them. Reps are like kit cars -- they're a lot of fun and provide a lot of bang for the buck if that's the sort of thing you're into, but anyone who demands the reliability of a Honda or Toyota absolutely shouldn't bother, and anyone who expects the same will be at least slightly disappointed. I am always amused by the "yeah well even Rolexes and Mercedes break down so it's all the same" anecdotal assertions. Would anybody bet $10,000 that given any random sampling of out-of-the-box 100 Rolexes and 100 "ETA" Rolex reps that the gens will have more cosmetic issues or be less reliable? Not even the dealers on this board would take that bet. On the other hand I'm not a wealthy man but I would take the opposite bet in a heartbeat.

Also, here's the thing about the "genuine" ETA movements in reps -- it's not always clear what you're getting. It has been documented that dealers sometimes inaccurately claim Chinese ETA copies as "ETA." A reputable dealer on this board recently offered "ETA Valjoux 7750" reps with 17 jewel movements, which have not been manufactured by ETA proper since the 1980's, so even if they are genuine, who knows where they came from!

I also (as usual) agree with bytor. The additional issue with reps is not that the movements are unreliable, it's the cosmetic bits that can have problems and are not easily replaceable. I've said this about a hundred times, but the "ETA = no problems" crowd always blow off a salient point. You don't wear a movement, you wear a watch, and a watch with a stripped crown that won't screw down, broken crystal or missing helium valve isn't much good no matter how soundly the movement runs. I'm not saying this sort of problem occurs anywhere near often, but it occurs enough that people should be honest about it. This is a rep enthusiasts' website, not a blind rep shiller's website. Or so I would hope.

But I'm not helping mrnixon at all. I own about 20 reps including 6 PAM's, which I've bought over the past three years. I've had 2 movement problems (Asian 7750, Asian Venus), 5 cosmetic problems (Sub rep had misaligned hand that scored the dial, "9" fell off Explorer I rep, crowns on YM and 183 stripped and wouldn't screw down, paint peeled off inner bezel of Navitimer rep). All were fixable with varying degrees of irritation and cost, except the Navi. The crown stripping problem with 183's seem endemic to that model so I would warn you on that, but otherwise the PAMs I've bought (005, 187, 118, 177, 196, 183) have been solid.

[tvt]

re: Kanerich and By-Tors popints on issues OTHER than the movement...

Mrnixon: Keep an eye out for anything "fancy" at all on a watch case because it is likely to cause you problems. A good example is some of the Submersible PAMs (Pam 24, Arktos, Etc.) The cool little markers around the bezel are in fact simply glued on. Even if you are being as careful as possible there is a good chance that they may pop off. If they do you are screwed, you are going to have very little luck ever finding a replacement.

This is a good example of why you have to be a particular type of person to really enjoy the world of fake watches. You see some people here (not myself) really get into modding the things. They will buy a watch, redo the lume on the dial (a problem fake Pams and ALL fakes have as compared to the real deal), replace certain pieces (most fake Pams have improper crowns and or crown gaurds wehn compared ot the gens) and even correct VERY small flaws (reccessed pins for most PAMs). This type of person find that work fun and they enjoy making the watch "better". They may buy a Submersible and remove all the bezel elements just to then epoxy them back into place so they know that they will be safe. But if you are NOT this type of guy then you may be in for a disapointment the first time something goes wrong.

As I have been trying to say it is not that fake watches are bad or always have issues, it is just that issues are much more likely to happen then with a gen and you often have little recourse about them when they do occur, so you need to have a realistic idea of what you are dealing with.

[Pugwash]

You may DOUBLE the cost of a watch just on having it serviced.

We're both making the same point, but you just look at it from a different point of view. You keep going on about doubling the cost of the rep, or whatever. I simply see it as an optional part of the cost. If you want to buy a rep as a toy that may or may not see the year out, get an Asian 21j. The movement can be replaced wholesale when it dies for about $30. It's a hassle to replace, but that's the hobby part if this obsession.

If you're buying a rep as a keeper, you need to factor in the cost of the first service. It's not a doubling of the price, it's just that you've only paid half of the price so far.

To imagine you're the sole crusader trying to teach us that the QC isn't there smacks a little of arrogance, especially when I can find dozens of posts a month from respected members stating this over and over, quite clearly.

You are not wrong in your views, but you're approaching them from a different perspective to most of us.

[tvt]

>>>To imagine you're the sole crusader trying to teach us that the QC isn't there smacks a little of arrogance, especially when I can find dozens of posts a month from respected members stating this over and over, quite clearly.

<<<

You know, I was right there with you and it was a nice "make nice" type of post and then you drop the above statement.

When on earth have I ever said I was on a crusade to educate anyone? It is YOU who are saddling me that "honor" I have never pretended to be the only one who feels this way. However when people ask questions I want to be honest with them. You have a thread here (as was the case in a similar Asian 7750 threar) where someone is asking an honest question and I am trying to give them an honest point fo view.

I would not say that you are trying to sell a bill of goods to gulible newbies so why would you throw the equivilent (though opposite) load of B.S. at me?

Any sense of crusading is coming from your head or past experience with others, it is NOT coming from me.

I think (and we are both now agreeing on this) that is is fairly important for a new member to consider the cost of an initial service when they are asking about the quality and reliability of these watches. If he buys a $300 fake PAM and then has a $200 service he is ad $500, toss in a $150 strap and he is at $650... for that money he may prefer a gen. I think that is what he was asking and I am just answering with honest and accurate thoughts. My intention is not to [censored] off pugwash and certainly not to educate anyone who has not specifically asked for that education.

[Pugwash]

You know, I was right there with you and it was a nice "make nice" type of post and then you drop the above statement.

Take it as a make-nice. It was intended as that.

[Devedander]

This brings up (tangentially) a question I have about higher priced reps, which is:

How do they compare fit and finish wise?

Sorry to thread jack but I think it's somehwat relevant.

So for those who have bought the higher priced/higher end reps, let's forget movement reliability or detail accuracy for a few minutes... how do they compare in terms of fit and finish?

In other words if I took some $300 nice dept store watch (and remove all branding) and then a $300 rep (again remove all branding and it's not a rep that you have ever seen the gen of so you have no direct comparison) do you think there would be a difference that would lead you to spot the rep? On their own faults do they feel as good as what you get in a dept store?

Basically if I took a $300 rep, unbranded but good quality for the price and not one you recognized in terms of what it was trying to rep, do you think you would feel all else being equal it's fit and finish and overall feel would make it worth $300?

In other words, are the $300 reps $300 watches with brand names and modelling applied, or are then $100 watches which you pay $200 to have look like brand names?

I ask because I am constantly astonished at the quality of what is at my local dept stores... even at discount stores like walmart and Ross a few minutes at the watch counter turns up one or two very nice looking, solid feeling, good finish watches for the sub $100 range and if I get into the $300 range I can get very nice looking, comfortable automatic watches with good looking gold plating or nice feeling steel.

I think for those who don't know reps, we assume gens are some mythical beast that makes our dept store watches feel rough and unpolished and cheap... that combined with the very flattering pictures many dealers have up may give the impression that reps quality (not talking mechanical, but rather aesthetic) is higher than it may be...

[tvt]

@Pugwash...

OK, will do, made nice.

@Davedander;

I think that the main falling off point for the fakes are the fit and finsih but it is hard to generalize because I have seen examples from both sides. In other words I have seen $30 generic watches passed off as $200 "replicas" simply because a brand name is stamped on it. On the other hand I have seen fakes that I think would stand thier own quite well against equally priced dept. store brands... so it is really a cse by case type of thing.

In general though sure, i think we pay more just because of the name and a good way to determine that is by looking at some of the "legitimate fake" brands liek Invita. Invita for all the world more or less sells watches VERY similar to the fakes we get here, is styles aping all the major gen brands, only they stamp "Invita" on them instead of "Rolex", "Bell and Ross" or "Cartier". The thing is that invitas typically are less expesnive than the equivilent fakes;

http://www.shopnbc.com/product/?track=-652...2663cs290152107

So if an Invicta is $80 - $250 typically and a fake is $100 - $300 (not including any possible out of the box service) one can pretty easily start to see exactly what we are paying extra in order to have the name. Not a huge difference but percentage wise not small either, plus the dept. store brand will have warrenty etc.

The other factore is that with dept. store brands there is a fixed price and you can likely find very good deals on the net. With fakes you may get a great deal or you may not, depending on who you buy it from and when (I look back at fakes I bought 4 years agao and kick myself! $400 for a middle of the road type if thing worth maybe $100... live and learn)

On the other side of the coind I have some fakes that have served me very well, run flawlessly and look MUCH more expensive then they are with excellent (though not gen level) fit and finish. I am not sure there is any clear black and white answer to this one.

[Devedander]

Hmmm... interesting... I have not spent over $200 on a rep yet since that is a lot of money to me and I am not sure I could be ok writing it off if something goes wrong... but it does make you wonder what you get for the extra few hundred when it's almost the same movement and raw material value of sub $200 reps...

But I can definitely see how it's expecting too much to have a definitive yes no answer to this type of question...

[cornerstone]

What Can Be Expected From A Good Rep?, Maybe a bit naive question, but maybe also an interesting question?

Just to come back to the original question, you can expect:

1. More sex to be sure. (See Narikaa's Nymphomariner)

2. (Is this just me?) More people start prostrating themselves at your feet.

3. Upgrades on flights from economy to replica business class.

4. Your house will look bigger.

5. On the downside, for every replica watch bought, another Swiss puppy starves to death. (But millions of enslaved cuckoos have been liberated.)

Here's a question though - how many reps can you buy for the cost of one Rolex service?

[crystalcranium]

I didn't read through all the posts but I agree with By-Tor that the weak point in ETA movement reps , if you wear them every day and put them the rigours you would put a genuine, tends to be the case and bracelet before the movement. Screw down crowns tend to be the biggest problem.

Above all, these are watches produced with the most attention given to appearance and not performance. They are beautiful and I treat them as if they are fragile.

[Richard Tracy]

What I find curious is the fact that some people have such a low 'opinion' of replicas,

yet they still find the time to frequent our boards and post the negative while usually

ignoring the positive aspects, which are many, and make logical sense depending upon

your reasoning.

I say anyone who cares enough to find out all they desire about replicas will find it here

in honest reviews, and many discussions regarding them, posted by others who are serious

about and enjoy this hobby.

Constructive criticism,.. is one thing, however empty negativity is another thing entirely called

bias.

I don't want to come across as angry, but this is a replica enthusiast board, not a replica

haters board...

If you find yourself on the same side of a discussion every time,.. then I say it's time to

examine why you just don't walk away and allow us what you perceive as our ignorance,..

and we see as our, spice rack.....

[kanerich]

Constructive criticism,.. is one thing, however empty negativity is another thing entirely called

bias.

I don't want to come across as angry, but this is a replica enthusiast board, not a replica

haters board...

What I find curious are people who make statements that are inapropos of anything that has been said . . . I did not see a single post here that suggested that collecting reps was not fun or rewarding, or that reps weren't cool to own. At the most "extreme" it was suggested that reps are probably going to have more problems than gens, and that the enjoyment one can expect from rep collecting depends on one's expectations. Wow, what a rep hater. What a crazy, destructive attitude. Get these fire-breathing rep liberals off my board, Rush! It's my way or the highway. Love it or leave it baby! U-S-A! R-E-P!

A variety of opinions about rep collecting and its merits doesn't detract from this board. People whose idea of discourse is "I don't like what you have to say, so you should shut up or leave this board" do. You want to talk about unconstructive, THAT's unconstructive.