Genuine eta 2836 -2 versus compatible clone??

[Timelord]

Just by pure coincidence,  as I was coming out of the watch supply house on Friday I bumped into a retired watch maker who I had my first discussion on eta clones and eta compatible mvts many moons ago.   I recall at the time that he had complemented the clones as being good value for money and that they were the same standard as the genuine etas.

I brought up the discussion again and this time he had a different opinion altogether.   He called them junk movements as even though some have great accuracy and great time telling qualities,  it not as durable nor lasting as the original movt., He said that when they play up they are really a throw away.  He mentioned that the escapement wheel is of poor quality, wearing out quicker and the pallet fork is also of substandard quality which needs replacing sooner than your coffee money in a supermarket.  The balance  hair spring is ok but nothing special as it too has a frequency of premature wearing.  What worries me is that some of these clones also have stampings and all the hallmarks of genuines often making them more indistinguishable from the real McCoy eta.  Is there a tutorial or write up as to what to look for when buying a genuine or a clone as it is getting harder and more challenging to buy and then having to return, especially of charged full price of a genuine?? 

[automatico]

I am not a fan of etaclones either but some of the Guy's info is not spot on imho.  Others may chime in.

"He mentioned that the escapement wheel is of poor quality, wearing out quicker and the pallet fork is also of substandard quality which needs replacing sooner than your coffee money in a supermarket."

The escape wheel and pallet fork are two parts that hardly ever wear out in a watch.  The pivots/arbors may wear from being dry or too soft but the pallet stones and escape wheel teeth are very tough.  Most watch companies do not even oil the pallet arbors, they just run them dry.  Oil on the escape wheel teeth/pallet stones lubricate and cushion the load so there is very little wear.

"The balance  hair spring is ok but nothing special as it too has a frequency of premature wearing."

Hairsprings usually last as long as the watch or until they get bent or tangled, there is very little (if any) wear on them.  Old 1960s Timex mechanical watches that sold for $30 or $40 had hairsprings that probably cost 20 cents a dozen and they would run for 10 or 12 years.  Old cheapo swiss made watches with low ball 17 jewel manual wind movements had the same track record of running on and on.

"What worries me is that some of these clones also have stampings and all the hallmarks of genuines often making them more indistinguishable from the real McCoy eta."

Putting ETA hallmarks on etaclones is a big problem.  Most people can spot a replica watch but not too many can spot a signed etaclone movement and for this reason there is a lot of info on this forum about how to tell them apart.  The first 2836 etaclone I ever saw was probably 8 or 10 years ago and it was a SeaGull with fancy finishing.  It ran just fine but the winding weight fell off right away.  It was an easy fix (rotor bearing came out of the weight) and as far as I know it still runs but I have not seen the guy I traded it to in a few years...if it quit, I would have heard about it.  I do have one etaclone...an ETA signed 2836 with non adjustable GMT conversion in a new 16570 explorer II, it is the only etaclone I have and it runs fine but since the watch is new and not real easy to find since the newer models came out, I have never worn it.  I could swap the etaclone for a new swiss ETA 2836 with the GMT conversion from the clone and make a very good watch out of it...if I was not so lazy.

 

[mymanmatt]

I have seen a vast improvement in the last few months on the clones. Of course, nothing will replace the genuine article. The main problem I found in the early model clones, was the train. They did seem to have some really cheap wheels, and they caused some problems. Also, the date corrector wheel would break easily, and the yoke seem to be of poor quality. Like automatico said, hairspring, pallet fork, and escape wheel are nearly bullet proof. The balance assy on the late model clones seems to be of very good quality. I have found when some of the dealers offer swiss, they seem to be very clean, very old movements. Most likely from a watch school. That's my 2 cents.

[Timelord]

Thank you both Automatico & Mymanmatt!!

As it was very late at night, I forgot to mention that he also commented on the train with the cheap wheels.  Depending on which clone you get, some are better than others.   I personally don't have anything against these clones, but if someone tries to sell you a clone at the price of a genuine, preying on one's ignorance or vulnerability then that presents a problem. Period!!

My other concern is if eta clones can interchange with genuine spare parts, then I don't mind as I can always maintain the mvt.

I have sourced many references and websites to learn to distinguish clones from the real deal, but I have also confronted some inconsistencies and inaccurate information where I can take a gamble hoping that the seller is honest.  I have been scammed before with other items and not just here, but that is the risk one takes!!

Of course, I would always buy an eta clone with the stampings from a seller that declares it as such, because at least I know that he is honest!!!!

[mymanmatt]

When i order my clones, I insist my supplier send me movements with no stamps at all on the base plate. They are much cleaner that those with stamps. I only use sterile movements. Some parts will interchange, some will not.

[horologist]

5 hours ago, Timelord said:

I have sourced many references and websites to learn to distinguish clones from the real deal, but I have also confronted some inconsistencies and inaccurate information where I can take a gamble hoping that the seller is honest.  I have been scammed before with other items and not just here, but that is the risk one takes!!

Even with genuine eta movements, if you see one advertised as new without tags, I would think twice as some can also be recycled and serviced with new parts, but not necessarily virgin new!!!   Make sure the seller gives you a return option, if you notice that something is not right when seen in the flesh.  From time to time, you can see some on ebay sell for very attractive prices, but unless they are in their silver sealed package, I would always have my doubts unless I can visually see them.. 

Don't worry, you are not the only one that has been scammed all over, right up from the very top including here.  I purchased a couple of pre-owned genuine eta movements that were meant to be freshly serviced, but when they reached me, they were dirty and dry with worn reverser wheels where one even had the winding stem falling out every time I pulled it to set the time..  This is a subtle case where education costs money!!!

[Timelord]

 

. Some parts will interchange, some will not.

Which is what makes life very difficult as to know which parts interchange and which don't.  Then, even if one knows which parts do not interchange, there is the problem of where to source clone parts!I guess that this is what he probably meant that when they play up, they become a throwaway and referred to them as junk mvts