Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 No, no. Not Andrew. That was actually Joshua. Is this Swiss? http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...products_id=541 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Well, I do hope other dealers weigh in on this as well. But it doesn't alter my opinion of who is reliable and who is not. In many cultures personal trustworthiness are separated from cultural or societal. Somebody made an interesting point that we must be important to dealers as they pay to be here. You may be right although I suspect it depends on the dealer. But if they are paying to sell watches on these forums they are also helping to pay for our forum. Notice the administration has made the correct statement that this will have to be a grass roots system and they are not going to get involved in policing every description - only rogue dealers. After all the dealers are paying clients of this forum as well (although I have no idea as to what percentage of revenues their fees are). It would be interesting to know whether it is the dealers who really keep this forum going financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Eddie is another dealer I've never bought from. I was talking about EL®-Dirk®, not Eddie Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonas Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 When this tread started out, It was about false advertising, (still is) and from my point of view: I find myself on a complete different level than many of the educated contributors in this tread. The last few months I actually have found it quite interesting browsing around different dealers sites/photoalbums, decide on a prospective next buy, and then read everything written about the subject to find out it this is really THE ultimate, if the AR was that great, and if the lume really was like a torch in the dark... and then take the chance on pressing the button. In this context the forums fulfill every need of a newbie like me. I can on the other hand understand that more expirienced members feel the need to get rid of some of the BS-advertising, and sure, the best thing would have been straight forward, honest information without the sugar on top, especially since you educated guys see right through the BS anyway... I myself has considered this as a part of the learning process. But when it comes to movements..?! Come on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Is this Swiss? http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...products_id=541 No, it's Asian, and I don't mean "Asian ETA", I mean ASIAN... Have a bunch like it here, scrapped out for parts... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 No, it's Asian, and I don't mean "Asian ETA", I mean ASIAN... Have a bunch like it here, scrapped out for parts... So, yes Trusty, you can go to the back of the class too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I was talking about EL®-Dirk®, not Eddie Lee. Different argument. Let's discuss it elsewhere as it just serves to dilute this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgan Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I doubt we have the ability to effect much change in how these dealers describe their products since as it was already pointed out.. we are a small percentage of customers. How many more watches do they sell by giving incorrect information regarding the movement or sapphire? I'd guess quite a few.. enough to make it pay to lie? A dealer could really clean up on this board if he offered a fair price, told the complete truth, hand picked each watch, was prompt in answering emails, had fast shipping, followed up with whatever is promised, and took care of problems within reason. Do we know of any dealers like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I doubt we have the ability to effect much change in how these dealers describe their products since as it was already pointed out.. we are a small percentage of customers. How many more watches do they sell by giving incorrect information regarding the movement or sapphire? I'd guess quite a few.. enough to make it pay to lie? A dealer could really clean up on this board if he offered a fair price, told the complete truth, hand picked each watch, was prompt in answering emails, had fast shipping, followed up with whatever is promised, and took care of problems within reason. Do we know of any dealers like this? And you've possibly hit the nail on the head. Or a nail somewhere near its head, at least. If the dealers who lie suddenly lose us all and we start using a new superdealer, then they only lose us, a small percentage of their customers (I don't believe that bit myself - we're larger than they let on) but they suddenly empower superfred, or whatever he's called, to be our best dealer, which gives him capital to challenge them on other fronts, while having us, the credible clients, filling his googlity with power points all over the web. He suddenly becomes a thread to the hegemony of current dealers and it's because they lied. Ok, Superfred's tale is a little far fetched, but if you remember Angus's post about fewer high-margin higher quality reps being the direction the forgers are taking, we are the target market. We hold the power. Stop lying to us and we'll be there for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I admit to not reading every post in this thread so forgive me if my thoughts are just a re-hashing of some expressed views. I whole heartedly agree that the marketing of something built to look and perform like an ETA by Seagull is not an ETA. The "lemania' issue has always bothered me. But what are we to do? This is an illegal trade. Most of the dealers who have recieved our blessing here are light years more honest and trustworthy than bestswissreplicas.com or goreplicas.com who gleefully take $900 for a stainless ETA submariner. I agree, these "lies" are false representations, not creative advertising, but among us theives, counterfeiters, buyers et al, they are pretty small. A newbie who gets "ripped off" because he thinks he has a genuine ETA 2892-A2 for $275 has in fact been sold a false bill of goods but he's in far better shape than the guy who paid $900 for an ETA 2836 sub. There's no Better Business Bureau to go to here. This kind of Q and A will help to self regulate the trade. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the more seasoned sellers here clean up their act at least in the short run, in resopnse to this discussion. And about the "Lemania" movements, a question for our dealers here. What's so wrong with calling this movement what it is? The Venus 175 is as iconic as any classic movement. The casual collector isn't going to know a Lemania, from a Venus from a whatever. Why not impress the knowlegeable with the fact that this is a fine copy of a very desired movement with a long history???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I think we are there for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 And about the "Lemania" movements, a question for our dealers here. What's so wrong with calling this movement what it is? The Venus 175 is as iconic as any classic movement. The casual collector isn't going to know a Lemania, from a Venus from a whatever. Why not impress the knowlegeable with the fact that this is a fine copy of a very desired movement with a long history???? Exactly ... apart from the fact it's not a Venus 175. It's a Seagull ST-19, but I get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Exactly ... apart from the fact it's not a Venus 175. It's a Seagull ST-19, but I get your point. And I agree wholeheartedly with your premise here. What are we to do? Exactly this. If we don't talk about this and self police as best we can the small community of dealers and buyers who come here for information and guidance, then there is no limit to the potential for rip off. I think it's entirely valid to nip these trends in the bud and say "Whoa!! This steps over the line" Kudos for having the guts to ruffle some feathers here and say that a few things stink in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Kudos for having the guts to ruffle some feathers here and say that a few things stink in this. I imagine I may not be on some dealers' Christmas card lists, but I've got almost a year to get back on them. That's how I see it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 And I agree wholeheartedly with your premise here. What are we to do? Exactly this. If we don't talk about this and self police as best we can the small community of dealers and buyers who come here for information and guidance, then there is no limit to the potential for rip off. I think it's entirely valid to nip these trends in the bud and say "Whoa!! This steps over the line" Kudos for having the guts to ruffle some feathers here and say that a few things stink in this. Perfectly said, especially the comment on self-policing. Let's not lose site of the fact that this is a community and as such we have the ability to set norms and standards, by pushing back when it looks like things are over the line. Peer pressure is to always such a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Perfectly said, especially the comment on self-policing. Let's not lose site of the fact that this is a community and as such we have the ability to set norms and standards, by pushing back when it looks like things are over the line. Peer pressure is to always such a bad thing. eddhead, just noticed your avitar caption. Love the Honeymooners too. I think the reply is "...and I'm calling Bellevue 'cause you're nuts!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj69 Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 A newbie who gets "ripped off" because he thinks he has a genuine ETA 2892-A2 for $275 has in fact been sold a false bill of goods... Okay, I admit I'm a bit of a noob here, but someone please educate me about the 2892. Are you saying all the reps advertised with a 2892 don't have a genuine ETA movement? If not, what kind of movement is it? Do any of the dealers who claim to be selling a rep with a "2892" have the genuine ETA movement? If so, what's the going rate for a rep with a real 2892? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Okay, I admit I'm a bit of a noob here, but someone please educate me about the 2892. Are you saying all the reps advertised with a 2892 don't have a genuine ETA movement? If not, what kind of movement is it? Do any of the dealers who claim to be selling a rep with a "2892" have the genuine ETA movement? If so, what's the going rate for a rep with a real 2892? boom! See, this is exactly what we don't want to have to do. @jj69: Some of them are real 2892s, and some of them aren't. The dealers selling real ones are now going to be confounded by the fact no-one will buy gen ETA2892 movements from them now. Wo-Mart, Trusty and Josh are all confirmed as advertising some of their non-ETA watches as having ETA2892s. Your guess is as good as mine which ones have the gen movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Okay, I admit I'm a bit of a noob here, but someone please educate me about the 2892. Are you saying all the reps advertised with a 2892 don't have a genuine ETA movement? If not, what kind of movement is it? Do any of the dealers who claim to be selling a rep with a "2892" have the genuine ETA movement? If so, what's the going rate for a rep with a real 2892? The only ETA 2892 I have, is the one I bought myself and installed in my first run Omega 007 watch, you know the one, very rare, exact copy with a Genuine ETA...no wait, a copy of an ETA...hence why I installed my own. I have yet to see a ETA 2892 in any rep, that does not mean they dont' exist, but I have yet to see any... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Okay, I admit I'm a bit of a noob here, but someone please educate me about the 2892. Are you saying all the reps advertised with a 2892 don't have a genuine ETA movement? If not, what kind of movement is it? Do any of the dealers who claim to be selling a rep with a "2892" have the genuine ETA movement? If so, what's the going rate for a rep with a real 2892? A 2892-A2 movement alone will cost you around $250 USD retail. A 2892 or 2895 (Sec at 6) watch from Hamilton or Raymond Weil will go for $500-$1000. As Pugwash said, it's hard to know. Some will argue the point is moot. The copies of this movement are very good and you will get an excellent and servicable movement if you purchase the Seagull clone. But it would be nice to know what you are getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 The problems arise when you have dealers who really don'y know a lot about movements...( and I include myself in that category ).....sometimes a dealer follows the lead of his supplier.....and sometimes he follows the lead of his competitors.....looking and comparing the item that he's just acquired with what's already out there....so trends start.....such as the trend to call the Seagull movement a Lemania / Venus movement......I'm not knowledgeable enough to determine copy from gen.....so if my supplier says it's a Venus movement...and dealers here are describing it as Lemania / Venus......then it's a Lemania / Venus as far as I'm concerned.......that trend changes with the accumulation of knowledge from different members such as ZZ....who are much more able to say what's what......then I change my description at that point......one thing i can say for certain tho' is that I certainly never have and never would DELIBERATELY mislead anyone on what I'm offering....such as the latest crop of '2892's.......even I can tell they are not 2892's.......! Another problem arises when you take into account dealer motives.....I'm principally a collector who loves watches both genuine and reproduction......I fund my collecting hobby by sourcing items that I am interested in principally and that I believe members will also find desirable.....hence the reason I don't do a lot of Rolex......however....given a set of different circumstances.....finding for instance that CN factories were put out of business and supply dried up with no takeup from any other mnanufacturing source.....and suddenly......pork belly scratchings were the things to collect.......I think you'll find a lot of Chinese dealers are suddenly experts in the supply of pork belly scratchings........whilst I'll spend my evenings looking ta my collection of watches.....and reminiscing with the the old lags from RWG and RWi about the glory days of watch collecting.....and wondering why the f**K they never made the SEA HAWK...before it went all Pete Tong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 A 2892-A2 movement alone will cost you around $250 USD retail. A 2892 or 2895 (Sec at 6) watch from Hamilton or Raymond Weil will go for $500-$1000. As Pugwash said, it's hard to know. Some will argue the point is moot. The copies of this movement are very good and you will get an excellent and servicable movement if you purchase the Seagull clone. But it would be nice to know what you are getting. The only reason I replaced my 2892 was that it would not work, even after numerous services...another watch I have has one of these in it, and it doesnt' work either, after being serviced, and yet another member, with the same 007 as mine, is getting the movement replaced...'cause his doesn't work... Plus I have another one sitting in the spares bin, not working, sent to me by a member. Maybe this is a fluke that I have had nothing but bad luck with these models...even after servicing them. I have no problems with copy movements, if you consider my comments on the 7750 and other Asian ones. But this 2892 copy, in my limited experience, is problematic. So I bought a genuine ETA one, and my problem is solved. As to which ones are genuine or not from the sellers, I am not prepared to analyse each and everyone to find out. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 ...then I change my description at that point... ... and this is a telling phrase. Never knowingly lie. I'd rather deal with someone who cared whether or not he lied to me, like TTK, but I'd settle for someone who was forced through market forces or whatever not to lie to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 The only reason I replaced my 2892 was that it would not work, even after numerous services...another watch I have has one of these in it, and it doesnt' work either, after being serviced, and yet another member, with the same 007 as mine, is getting the movement replaced...'cause his doesn't work... Plus I have another one sitting in the spares bin, not working, sent to me by a member. Maybe this is a fluke that I have had nothing but bad luck with these models...even after servicing them. I have no problems with copy movements, if you consider my comments on the 7750 and other Asian ones. But this 2892 copy, in my limited experience, is problematic. So I bought a genuine ETA one, and my problem is solved. As to which ones are genuine or not from the sellers, I am not prepared to analyse each and everyone to find out. RG Rob, The watch and movement that seems to confuse the most is the Franck Mueller with the advertised "same spec as genuine" 2892 movement. There is a photo of a movement in this watch on a dealer website that is clearly hallmarked with the ETA stamp. Now, that's only one photo of the movement in one watch, but wouldn't that be the gold standatd by which genuine movements are judged. Or are the cloners cloning hallmarks too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj69 Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 boom! @jj69: Some of them are real 2892s, and some of them aren't. The dealers selling real ones are now going to be confounded by the fact no-one will buy gen ETA2892 movements from them now. Thanks Pugwash. So one determining factor would definitely be the cost of the rep? I assume it's safe to say that a $159 rep advertised with "ETA 2892" would, in fact, have an Asian rep of a 2892? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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