crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Thanks Pugwash. So one determining factor would definitely be the cost of the rep? I assume it's safe to say that a $159 rep advertised with "ETA 2892" would, in fact, have an Asian rep of a 2892? Bet the house on it. This is the worst of this kind of advertising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Rob, The watch and movement that seems to confuse the most is the Franck Mueller with the advertised "same spec as genuine" 2892 movement. There is a photo of a movement in this watch on a dealer website that is clearly hallmarked with the ETA stamp. Now, that's only one photo of the movement in one watch, but wouldn't that be the gold standatd by which genuine movements are judged. Or are the cloners cloning hallmarks too? I personally have never seen a copy or Asian model with a Hallmark, so it appears the movement manufactures, while duplicating a movement, are not trying to pass it off as something else. They may exist (those with Hallmarks), but I have never seen it (and I like to think I see my share of movements under a 4X loupe). I can tell by looking at the balance wheel [censored] if it's ETA or Asian... ETA uses removable studs for the hairspring regulator and stud arm, Asian uses non-removable attachments. Easy to spot from a mile away... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobs1971 Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Just my small contribution to this thread. I'm new to the game so I really don't know anything about movements. However, I do know a bit about math.... Took this list off Ofrei: - ETA 2824 $ 86,- - ETA 2834 $ 67,- - ETA 2892 $ 254,- - "Unitas" 6497 $ 75,- - ETA 7750 $ 315,- - ETA 7750 decorated $ 430,- - ETA 7753 $ 496,- Obviously, prices will go down when buying more units. So when an ad says 'This ultimate watch with Swiss ETA 2892 for $ 250,-', I bet the movement has nothing to do with any ETA whatsoever...... @ pugwash: thnx for bringing this discussion up! @ TTK: thnx for having the balls to enter this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I personally have never seen a copy or Asian model with a Hallmark, so it appears the movement manufactures, while duplicating a movement, are not trying to pass it off as something else. They may exist (those with Hallmarks), but I have never seen it (and I like to think I see my share of movements under a 4X loupe). I can tell by looking at the balance wheel [censored] if it's ETA or Asian... ETA uses removable studs for the hairspring regulator and stud arm, Asian uses non-removable attachments. Easy to spot from a mile away... RG OK, here's the mentioned "hallmarked" movement, closer than a mile. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Rob: What is your opinion on the hairspring regulator of crystalcranium's movement picture above, stud or non-removable attachment??? I'd like to know since its not clear to me from the picture, although the ETA stamp is clearly there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 OK, here's the mentioned "hallmarked" movement, closer than a mile. What do you think? Hallmark and movement ID look genuine...on the mainplate below the balance. Balance [censored] and levers are Asian from my exprience (NOT removable studs, but fixed) and the screws are not ETA. ETA uses black (blued) screws only on the autowinder bridge, the rest of the screws on ETA movements are nickel, note that all the screws on this one are blued, therefore in my view, a ebauch. Mainplate is most likely ETA, rest is most likely Asian... There is a huge market of ebauches bought and sold over the world, very well known places such as Ofrei buy ALL their ETA movements on the open market, not directly from ETA... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hallmark and movement ID look genuine...on the mainplate below the balance. Balance [censored] and levers are Asian from my exprience (NOT removable studs, but fixed) and the screws are not ETA. ETA uses black (blued) screws only on the autowinder bridge, the rest of the screws on ETA movements are nickel, note that all the screws on this one are blued, therefore in my view, a ebauch. Mainplate is most likely ETA, rest is most likely Asian... There you have it, folks. The first authenticated example of a Swinese (or is it Chiss?!) movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hallmark and movement ID look genuine...on the mainplate below the balance. Balance [censored] and levers are Asian from my exprience (NOT removable studs, but fixed) and the screws are not ETA. ETA uses black (blued) screws only on the autowinder bridge, the rest of the screws on ETA movements are nickel, note that all the screws on this one are blued, therefore in my view, a ebauch. Mainplate is most likely ETA, rest is most likely Asian... There is a huge market of ebauches bought and sold over the world, very well known places such as Ofrei buy ALL their ETA movements on the open market, not directly from ETA... RG So....the plot thickens???? This is an "in between" movement, part ETA, part asian??? OK, now I'm completely confused...and a bit disheartened. That vintage Hamilton Pocket Watch collection I'm working on is looking better and better. At least when I buy a Railroad Special 992B from 1925,.....I know what the hell I'm buying. From what Rob just said....I dont even trust my genuines anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Removable studs ETA Fixed studs Asian RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 there must be more differences than the studs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Amazing information from Ziggy. Who else would recognize this as a "Frankenmovement" I would have thought for sure that the ETA stamp alone meant it was genuine, not just part ETA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Amazing information from The Zigmeister. Who else would recognize this as a "Frankenmovement" I would have thought for sure that the ETA stamp alone meant it was genuine, not just part ETA. are we jumping to conclusions here? when is an genuine ETA no longer an ETA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 there must be more differences than the studs The Studs are the quick and easy way to recognize the Balance and [censored] as being Asian or ETA... There are more differences, but visually, if you note the type of studs, you can quickly determine the heritage, is it ETA or not... In my experience, Asian studs, means mostly Asian parts...not that this in itself is a bad thing, it's just the way it is. Other than the 2892 copies, all the other Asian models I have serviced are fine. I am only voicing my problems with the 2892 models, as they are the only ones I have had no luck with getting them to run after numerous overhauls. If you want to look at a picture and know "Is it Asian or ETA..." note the type of stud, and you'll be 95% sure of what your getting. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am no expert on movements but I have been collecting these for a long time and I am fairly certain (and The Zigmeister just confirmed this) that there in fact ARE copy (ie: FAKE, made in China, nothing to do with ETA at all) movements being stamped (ETA). Now whether these are 100% fake or somehow sourcing base plates and then adding Chinese parts I cannot say, what I can say is that these are NOT genuine ETA movements however the are commonly sold as such. So you have these totally bogus, totally non genuine "ETA 2892" movements (some even stamped ETA) being sold as gens. Like Rob I have a 007 Bond with a totally dead piece of junk "Seagull" in it that I now need to replace with a gen movement. I would even be OK with this but the dealer flat out lied to me and told me through e-mail that it was in fact a GENUINE ETA 2892. Unlike some previous examples (cheap watches being billed with a 2892) this watch was NOT cheap. It was priced accordingly to the fact that it supposedly had a genuine movement... so I was robbed. I started a thread awhile back called something like "What was your biggest rip off" and I told this story as my own. I meant that thread to cover the ground that this thread is doing much better. In other words dealers ARE lieing to us just as they would lie to anyone else. We do not neccesarily have the relationship with them we may hope or think we have. In this case perhaps the dealer (a drop shipper) honestly did not know. As TTK points out he was probably simply passing info on from his source and he never actually even saw the watch... fair enough, but the end result it still the same. Finally, I have never seen ANY fake with a genuine ETA 2892 in it, I thought I had but I was wrong. I would stay far away from any "2892" based watch because aside from being a copy movement inside they are CRAPPY movements that do not seem to last beyond a few months... even after service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 are we jumping to conclusions here? when is an genuine ETA no longer an ETA? Well, not to go off topic.....but I would suggest that an ETA mainplate with everything else that works and moves being Asian is not an ETA. If I have a car frame built by Porsche and everything else stacked on to it is Ford,...... I don't know what you have but it's not a Porsche. i don't know if everything stacked onto this ETA building block is Asian, but the lack of genuine ETA screws suggests what's screwed to it is not original. If that's the case, this is far from an ETA movement IMHO. And in the spirit of the original thread topic....its not an ETA 2892 same spec as genuine etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am no expert on movements but I have been collecting these for a long time and I am fairly certain (and Ziggy just confirmed this) that there in fact ARE copy (ie: FAKE, made in China, nothing to do with ETA at all) movements being stamped (ETA). Now whether these are 100% fake or somehow sourcing base plates and then adding Chinese parts I cannot say, what I can say is that these are NOT genuine ETA movements however the are commonly sold as such. So you have these totally bogus, totally non genuine "ETA 2892" movements (some even stamped ETA) being sold as gens. Like Rob I have a 007 Bond with a totally dead piece of junk "Seagull" in it that I now need to replace with a gen movement. I would even be OK with this but the dealer flat out lied to me and told me through e-mail that it was in fact a GENUINE ETA 2892. Unlike some previous examples (cheap watches being billed with a 2892) this watch was NOT cheap. It was priced accordingly to the fact that it supposedly had a genuine movement... so I was robbed. I started a thread awhile back called something like "What was your biggest rip off" and I told this story as my own. I meant that thread to cover the ground that this thread is doing much better. In other words dealers ARE lieing to us just as they would lie to anyone else. We do not neccesarily have the relationship with them we may hope or think we have. In this case perhaps the dealer (a drop shipper) honestly did not know. As TTK points out he was probably simply passing info on from his source and he never actually even saw the watch... fair enough, but the end result it still the same. Finally, I have never seen ANY fake with a genuine ETA 2892 in it, I thought I had but I was wrong. I would stay far away from any "2892" based watch because aside from being a copy movement inside they are CRAPPY movements that do not seem to last beyond a few months... even after service. Totally agree. I sure as hell would have looked at this movement an hour ago and said "Yep, its a genuine ETA" based on the hallmark. I don't think everyone is intent on misrepresentation. This movement "grey zone" is pretty confusing stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Finally, I have never seen ANY fake with a genuine ETA 2892 in it, I thought I had but I was wrong. I would stay far away from any "2892" based watch because aside from being a copy movement inside they are CRAPPY movements that do not seem to last beyond a few months... even after service. Its truly a shame if these "2892" movements break down and can not be serviced. How widespread is this phenomenon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 are we jumping to conclusions here? when is an genuine ETA no longer an ETA? I dont' think anyone is jumping to anything. The question was, "How can you tell if it's ETA or Asian", I think my info shows the answer to that question. I have provided my insight, based on my firsthand experience with these movements. Reality is, we have great sellers here, and I will continue to buy from them, as I have always gotten great value for my money. I have no complaints (excepting my 007 with the copy 2892, which was very expensive for those who remember these models). Personally I look at all the pictures before I buy, not the description as I tend to go on what I see, not what I read about a particular movement. Even Ofrei doesn't know if it's a Genuine ETA, millions of these are bought and sold on the surplus market, in various forms...complete movements from ETA, to ETA Ebauches with aftermarket parts...my supplier can get me Genuine ETA's (for now) but at twice the cost of the "Surplus" movements, I will stick to the cheaper ones... As for solutions to this particular issue, I have no idea, all I can offer is what I see based on what I know. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 The Studs are the quick and easy way to recognize the Balance and [censored] as being Asian or ETA... There are more differences, but visually, if you note the type of studs, you can quickly determine the heritage, is it ETA or not... In my experience, Asian studs, means mostly Asian parts...not that this in itself is a bad thing, it's just the way it is. Other than the 2892 copies, all the other Asian models I have serviced are fine. I am only voicing my problems with the 2892 models, as they are the only ones I have had no luck with getting them to run after numerous overhauls. If you want to look at a picture and know "Is it Asian or ETA..." note the type of stud, and you'll be 95% sure of what your getting. RG Thank you RG. I will keep this in mind. Best regards Gunnar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I dont' think anyone is jumping to anything. The question was, "How can you tell if it's ETA or Asian", I think my info shows the answer to that question. I have provided my insight, based on my firsthand experience with these movements. Reality is, we have great sellers here, and I will continue to buy from them, as I have always gotten great value for my money. I have no complaints (excepting my 007 with the copy 2892, which was very expensive for those who remember these models). Personally I look at all the pictures before I buy, not the description as I tend to go on what I see, not what I read about a particular movement. Even Ofrei doesn't know if it's a Genuine ETA, millions of these are bought and sold on the surplus market, in various forms...complete movements from ETA, to ETA Ebauches with aftermarket parts...my supplier can get me Genuine ETA's (for now) but at twice the cost of the "Surplus" movements, I will stick to the cheaper ones... As for solutions to this particular issue, I have no idea, all I can offer is what I see based on what I know. RG ...and just let me vent a bit about this particular movement and some who were touting it's reliability and virtues. In an old thread about ETA vs Asian, I got my ass reamed by several here who said the Seagul movement copy of this movement was a reliable, excellent reproduction of a proven design and should not be criticized for being inherently inferior to it's ETA counterpart just because it was Asian. Thus my statement earlier in this thread that this was a reliable movement. I think this myth has been blown to bits. It looks like this movement is junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 eddhead, just noticed your avitar caption. Love the Honeymooners too. I think the reply is "...and I'm calling Bellevue 'cause you're nuts!!!" it is indeed!! i should add that!!! or maybe just go with "... sonnnyyy boyyyy...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 ...and just let me vent a bit about this particular movement and some who were touting it's reliability and virtues. In an old thread about ETA vs Asian, I got my ass reamed by several here who said the Seagul movement copy of this movement was a reliable, excellent reproduction of a proven design and should not be criticized for being inherently inferior to it's ETA counterpart just because it was Asian. Thus my statement earlier in this thread that this was a reliable movement. I think this myth has been blown to bits. It looks like this movement is junk. To clairify, the 2892 COPIES I have had problems with, are NOT the one in your picture... The ones I have had problems with, are UNMARKED, no hallmark, no ETA, no 2892, nothing...they look like a 2892, but are copies that's all... The one in your picture, could be perfect and run great, I can't say as I have never had one of these in the shop (actually I have never seen a hybrid like that until today). It would be interesting to tear one down and see what it exactly is, and how much is ETA and how much is Asian... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 It looks like this movement is junk. sure looks like it right now. Lets hope the dealers read this information and modify their descriptions accordingly...." beautifull looking junk 2892-like movement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) @Ted....ever the optimist.........please DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.....! In this case perhaps the dealer (a drop shipper) honestly did not know. As TTK points out he was probably simply passing info on from his source and he never actually even saw the watch... fair enough, but the end result it still the same. I didn't say that.....I SEE EVERY WATCH THAT I SELL....I HOLD EVERY WATCH THAT I SELL........my DNA is all over them.......what I said was that 'deaers follow trends......and sometimes the lead of their supplier"......and that I am not qualified to tell an Asian from Swiss......I rely on my supplier and research to be able to tell that......so please...don't confuse others with what I said.....just quote me direct. And please stop being so pessimistic....for somebody who's stayed in this game as long as you ...you must be getting something from it.....but you make it sound as tho' it's been heartbreak every step of the way.....if the hands go round and tell the time consistently......what the [censored] does it matter what's inside.....EVERYONE who arrived here...and I mean EVERYONE.........arrived with one intention........ to get a fake that they could fool people with....and that tells them when their dinner is ready.........and that's FACT.....if it has two hamsters turning the cogs...it dun matter.....as long as they turn...tell the time....and you're next door neighbour thinks you;re cool 'cos you have a Rolex Submariner......well......! Edited January 22, 2007 by TTK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 it is indeed!! i should add that!!! or maybe just go with "... sonnnyyy boyyyy...." "So you heard I found the money eh????" "The money...what money? "You know what money...the money I found on the bus!" "Oh yes, I do remember hearing something about that..." Oh my.....too many hours wasted in front of the tube. Med school was quite a hurdle looking back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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