Patek Philippe Franken options

[danielv2000]

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted here.   I’ve started thinking about a high-end Patek Philippe franken.   I’ve fallen hard for the 1518 and 2499.  Unfortunately, there are not many options out there.

 

Other than Phong, who is still in the game, can anyone recommend less pricey alternatives?  I’ve reached out to Phong and it’s north of $20K.  Not even sure what parts, dials, etc he’s using.

 

Thanks for any input.

 

 

[freddy333]

I have no recent experience with Phong's watches, but, back when I was more active, I had some (repair) experience with a few of his Rolex frankens, which varied from satisfactory to nightmarish (worn parts cemented in place, etc.). As I recall, Ziggy posted a number of threads detailing some of what he found inside these watches.

At that price level, I would either buy a 2 or 3 hand gen or educate yourself on the parts required to build a franken, gathering them yourself & having a local professional watchmaker assemble everything for you.

 

Another option would be to consider 1 of the recent high-end Patek reps that contain gen-like movements. As is the general rule with reps, avoid the more complicated models & those with 'gems' & you should not have too many problems. Unfortunately, these high-end Patek reps are somewhat rare (I tried to purchase a Calatrava recently, but the factory ultimately said the watch was not currently available & had no ETA when they would be), so you may need to spend some time & effort to track 1 down.

[danielv2000]

8 hours ago, freddy333 said:

I have no recent experience with Phong's watches, but, back when I was more active, I had some (repair) experience with a few of his Rolex frankens, which varied from satisfactory to nightmarish (worn parts cemented in place, etc.). As I recall, The Zigmeister posted a number of threads detailing some of what he found inside these watches.

At that price level, I would either buy a 2 or 3 hand gen or educate yourself on the parts required to build a franken, gathering them yourself & having a local professional watchmaker assemble everything for you.

 

Another option would be to consider 1 of the recent high-end Patek reps that contain gen-like movements. As is the general rule with reps, avoid the more complicated models & those with 'gems' & you should not have too many problems. Unfortunately, these high-end Patek reps are somewhat rare (I tried to purchase a Calatrava recently, but the factory ultimately said the watch was not currently available & had no ETA when they would be), so you may need to spend some time & effort to track 1 down.

Thanks Freddy.  

 

I’ve also started looking online for vintage pieces of the same era - ie: 1940-1960.  Watches that look almost identical to the 1518 or 2499 just with a different name and obviously, movement.   I wonder if such a dial can be “refinished”.

 

 

[freddy333]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:05 AM, danielv2000 said:

I wonder if such a dial can be “refinished”.

Most likely. Click here

[automatico]

"I’ve started thinking about a high-end Patek Philippe franken."

 

This is not meant to be a smart remark but you might have waited too long to get started on it for three reasons...all because of $$:

1...Genuine patphils and parts are extremely expensive now, basically ruling out Frankenstein projects using genuine parts.

2...Gold is nearing $2K USD per troy ounce so solid 14/18K gold watches for F-stein projects have jumped way up in price. 

3...Many classic case designs have been melted down.

 

Patphil watches were reasonably priced when I bought the last one in 1998...a 'golden ellipse' on the orignal woven bracelet, purchased locally for scrap gold price.  It had a cal 23-300 movement and was in first class condition.  I had it c/o and traded it away.

Q...Why trade it away?

A...They are fragile as a baby's breath.  Not for me.

Q...Why was the ellipse so cheap back then?

A...Because no one wanted it.  It was tacky, a 'country club' watch.  'Sporty watches' were the rage back then, same as now.

Calatravas back then were $4 to $5K and Nauts were $4 to $6K.  Complicated models were very high back then same as now.

Problems with them today:

1...Astronomical prices.

2...No parts.  I could get patphil parts back then from the Stern Agency NYC but not now.  No contacts today.  All I have left is a nos 18kyg crown.

3...Still fragile as a baby's breath.

 

If I wanted a Frankenstein patphil today, I would buy a 14K or 18K vintage Hamilton (rectangle, square, or round ) and have the dial refinished.

Btw, Hamiltons were 'the best of the best' in their prime and imho a LOT better than a vintage patphil.  Besides that, Hamilton parts are still easy to find and relatively cheap.

Many other watch brands had fine gold vintage cases too...Lucien Piccard, Gruen, Benrus, Elgin etc. and many have standard ETA or A. Schild movements.

 

Here is a price list from the same time when I had the ellipse:

 

[tomhorn]

Ubi built a couple of stunners back in the day. His 530 chronograph was a work of art.

[freddy333]

5 hours ago, automatico said:

This is not meant to be a smart remark but you might have waited too long to get started on it for three reasons...all because of $$:

1...Genuine patphils and parts are extremely expensive now, basically ruling out Frankenstein projects using genuine parts.

2...Gold is nearing $2K USD per troy ounce so solid 14/18K gold watches for F-stein projects have jumped way up in price. 

3...Many classic case designs have been melted down.

It had a cal 23-300 movement and was in first class condition.  I had it c/o and traded it away.

Problems with them today:

1...Astronomical prices.

2...No parts.  I could get patphil parts back then from the Stern Agency NYC but not now.  No contacts today.  All I have left is a nos 18kyg crown.

3...Still fragile as a baby's breath.

Good points.
I still have a 23-300 with dial/handset that has been sitting on my bench for years awaiting a Patek case -- at this point, almost any Patek case that fits -- but none are to be found anymore. As automatico said, most have been sold off for their melt value &, even with inside contacts, Patek, like Rolex, will no longer sell or permit parts transfers out of the mother ship & its satellites.

[automatico]

"I still have a 23-300 with dial/handset that has been sitting on my bench for years awaiting a Patek case ."

 

Suitable cases are few and far between, but the movement is 50% of the chase.

 

I did not look up the reference numbers the OP posted and did not know they were chronographs, so all my yakety yak above is null and void.  

I better stick to time only/time and date projects because a gold chrono project will take more $$ than I can afford. 

Besides that, the last chronograph I took apart...is still apart.  

 

Yakety Yak (2007 Remaster) - YouTube

 

[automatico]

"As automatico said, most have been sold off for their melt value..."

 

A jewelry store friend had a rolex 1803 Prez movement (cal 1556 hack) in his desk drawer a few ears ago and I asked where the case and bracelet went (it was complete with date works and dial, but they had removed the diamond markers to get the gold settings and scratched the dial).

He said they scrapped the case and bracelet after paying $1200 for the running watch.  Twelve hundred $$ for a rolex Prez!

I asked how much they would have sold it to me for before they scrapped it.   He said double melt value complete with movement.

I bought the movement for half what they paid for the watch...$600.  

[freddy333]

19 hours ago, automatico said:

Suitable cases are few and far between, but the movement is 50% of the chase.

The movement is 1/3 of the chase. The movement & dial represent the other 2/3. But, however you look at it, no 1 part is useable without the other 2. 

[danielv2000]

Gents, thanks for the feedback.  Prices have indeed reached crazy levels.  I do regret not getting into Patek’s earlier.

 

I just wish there were decent reps of vintage models.  While I do look like the modern 5711 and 5726, nothing beats that old school 40’s-60’s look which are timeless.

 

 

[automatico]

"...nothing beats that old school 40’s-60’s look which are timeless."

 

I have owned a few obscure brand vintage 14K chronographs, sometimes called 'onion skins' because the cases are so thin. 

Q...How thin are they?

A...So thin they have double case backs, one base metal and one gold because the gold back would cave in without the base metal back under it. 

Btw...most were two register snap backs.

 

So...You might look around for an 'onion skin' chronograph that looks like a vintage Patek chronograph and go from there.  Maybe.

The movement and dial will be the next problems.  Used to be that many dial refinishers would put any brand name on a dial as long as the original name was not legible. 

Not now though, they decided to get picky about it and want the original name on the dial and will only refinish it back to original.