Corgi Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Hello friends, I recently inherited this wristwatch. I cannot find any information about it on the internet, and was hoping if somebody here could point me in the direction of a place that could answer my questions. I am scheduling an appointment to verify its authenticity later this week... but was hoping that you guys could chime in with opinions. I know that... -It belonged to my great-grandfather who bought it around 1910-1920. -It could be much older -Was brought in for professional servicing in the early 80s I'd like to know: -How much it would cost if it were real. -Is it real? -Are there any inconsistencies that you can find in its appearance? Here are photos: (Movement at bottom) Movement photos: Thanks everyone. I will keep you posted as to the results of the authenticity check in the coming weeks. I hope that you can help me learn more about the model, so I don't come off sounding like a noob in front of the jeweler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 No clue what it's worth, but if it were my great grandfather's its true value would far exceed any number found in a blue book..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 are you sure it is a patek? i think it isn´t patek movement isn´t patek case isn´t patek hands set isn´t patek i think it not woth much money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 are you sure it is a patek? i think it isn´t patek movement isn´t patek case isn´t patek hands set isn´t patek i think it not woth much money The hands were replaced during servicing, the old ones completely fell apart as far as I heard. The case, I'm not sure.. the fact it lacks any sorts of engravings is worrysome. The movement looks to be circa 1885 after some investigating on google. It seems patek were NOT engraving their emplems directly onto their movements at this time. Take a look at this photo of an authentic movement from 1885. It looks quite similar no? It's a stopwatch movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Were they repping watches way back then? maybe he got it from EL's great-grandfather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Were they repping watches way back then? maybe he got it from EL's great-grandfather I'm fairly sure watches were being repped, but from what my family has told me, the purchase of this watch seems legitimate. How much do you think a Patek Philippe like this cost in 1890? I hear my great-grandpa paid 90 ZL (polish currency) which was huge money back then. Maybe it was just a very very good rep for back then! :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raijor Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 You need to take this to a watchmaker (not a watch technician) to determine preliminary authenticity. There are many Franken Pateks floating around. For example: every few months a "Patek" show up on eBay. These watches actually are just re-cased Patek pocket watch movements. While a quality movement they are not true Patek Phillipe watches and usually sell but not for a fortune. Good luck - I wish you the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 If I was you I would ask Omni (member) as he is usually very good at tracking this kind of stuff down. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 You need to take this to a watchmaker (not a watch technician) to determine preliminary authenticity. There are many Franken Pateks floating around. For example: every few months a "Patek" show up on eBay. These watches actually are just re-cased Patek pocket watch movements. While a quality movement they are not true Patek Phillipe watches and usually sell but not for a fortune. Good luck - I wish you the best. ... and they were able to do this re-casting in the 1800s? It sounds like something precise... I don't want to sound like I'm defending this watch to death, it may very well be a fake (no caseback engravings, no crown flower, no serial number anywhere) but the movement, as far as I can tell, looks authentic. But even an authorized dealer would have trouble identifying a Patek from 1885. The most the AD would be able to tell me (maybe) is how much a new one costs if she checked her store instruction manual. Maybe I should just print these photos and mail them to the Patek Philippe factory, just for fun, and see if I get a reply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raijor Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 ... and they were able to do this re-casting in the 1800s? It sounds like something precise... I don't want to sound like I'm defending this watch to death, it may very well be a fake (no caseback engravings, no crown flower, no serial number anywhere) but the movement, as far as I can tell, looks authentic. But even an authorized dealer would have trouble identifying a Patek from 1885. The most the AD would be able to tell me (maybe) is how much a new one costs if she checked her store instruction manual. Maybe I should just print these photos and mail them to the Patek Philippe factory, just for fun, and see if I get a reply? Just to clarify - I am not trying to rain on your parade - I hope your inheritance turns out to be an actual Patek. I doubt that there were reps as back then as most watches were not branded the way they are now. You did ask for feedback. I only mentioned the "re-casing" of pocket watch movements because they are fairly commonplace. Your watch looks to in my opinion be a re-case because it has soldered lugs meant to attach a strap for wearing the watch on the wrist. Your watch if made in the 1890's would likely be the first known men's wristwatch, preceeding the Cartier Santos wristwatch made specifically for Alberto Santos Dumont in the early 1900's, in which case you will be able to retire and live the good life form many years to come. More likely however, your watch has been re-cased at some point or it is actually an early 20th century Patek wristwatch and is worth quite a fortune. Keep in mind that Abraham-Loius Breget invented the Tourbillon in 1795 so plopping a pocket watch movement into a wristwatch case is a small renovation. In any event you have got quite a prize there. Good luck!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section8 Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Wow, good luck tracking down the info - but i think the real prize is that you inherited such a cool watch (real or fake). Have it serviced, put a nice vintage strap on it and wear it well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omni Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Okay, I was asked by Corgi in PM to pipe in here. A little history lesson to give you some insight. Before WW1 pocket watches were the norm. Then they found during battle that pulling out a pocketwatch in the trenches wasn't too easy so they started straping them to their wrists and ankles. This led to the immediate popularity of wrist watches. Thereafter, the first thing they did was start attaching wire lugs for the straps onto the pocket watch cases (the forerunner of the true wrist watch). If corgi said his grandfather bought this around 1920 then it would fit into the timeline. If you didn't notice, a modern recasing would have modern lugs with removable pins, anything before 1950 had wire or solid lugs pins. You Pannie nuts are familar with the classic Panerai. You have to have special leather/bendable metal tang straps or sew them on for these antiques. You see on corgi's watch it has solid lugs to fit a strap on, keeping in tune with the times. I suggest to corgi that for a big $9.95 fee, maybe up to $30 for a more extensive appraisal, he gets http://whatsitworthtoyou.com to do an appraisal of the watch. They have several good expert clock & watch appraisers on board who will give you an acceptable appraisal from photos and description for insurance purposes. It ain't much to pay if your watch or clock is worth thousands. Combing through Antiquorium inventory sometimes can give you clues but you're better off getting an appraisal from an expert. The movement appears authentic, so does the case. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 recently i got from PP an extract from the archives for my PP Calatrava from the '30...paid them 100$...but on the doc it is written that the mvt was produced in the 1926 and that the watch was sold in the 36...a short description...like 18k gold case...tra-la-la...i was expecting a little more...if you compare their description to our dealers description for reps...well, PP could do better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Corgi, There are a number of valuers, pay or free, Google search "watch valuations." eg.http://www.bonhams.co.uk/cgi-bin/public.sh/pubweb/publicSite.r?sContinent=USA&screen=Watches Alternatively, just float your photos to any of the bigger auction houses, specialising in antique watches, especially if they have an auction coming up. You may be amazed at the detail in the response you receive..... especially if it has some genuine basis for resale! Doesn't mean you have to sell it..... just pique their interest with photos, and see what results you glean! Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Can't help with the PP, however, ...I doubt that there were reps as back then as most watches were not branded the way they are now... The first Omega reps where reported back in the mid 1890's so in theory it's possible, however, the recasing suggestion above is most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Okay, I was asked by Corgi in PM to pipe in here. A little history lesson to give you some insight. Before WW1 pocket watches were the norm. Then they found during battle that pulling out a pocketwatch in the trenches wasn't too easy so they started straping them to their wrists and ankles. This led to the immediate popularity of wrist watches. Thereafter, the first thing they did was start attaching wire lugs for the straps onto the pocket watch cases (the forerunner of the true wrist watch). If corgi said his grandfather bought this around 1920 then it would fit into the timeline. If you didn't notice, a modern recasing would have modern lugs with removable pins, anything before 1950 had wire or solid lugs pins. You Pannie nuts are familar with the classic Panerai. You have to have special leather/bendable metal tang straps or sew them on for these antiques. You see on corgi's watch it has solid lugs to fit a strap on, keeping in tune with the times. I suggest to corgi that for a big $9.95 fee, maybe up to $30 for a more extensive appraisal, he gets http://whatsitworthtoyou.com to do an appraisal of the watch. They have several good expert clock & watch appraisers on board who will give you an acceptable appraisal from photos and description for insurance purposes. It ain't much to pay if your watch or clock is worth thousands. Combing through Antiquorium inventory sometimes can give you clues but you're better off getting an appraisal from an expert. The movement appears authentic, so does the case. Regards. I got the deluxe appraisal - how long do you think it will take? Thanks very much for your help anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hi Corgi, I work with Patek Philippes from time to time and I can pretty much guarantee that your watch is indeed not a PP. Sorry, but even in the old Pateks which were unsigned, in the period between Patek&CZA and Patek Becoming Patek Philippe, the regulating bridge (not sure if this is the right expression in english) was decorated. The finishing of the movement is suspect to me, and I believe the dial print is wrong too. I would be very interested to know the outcome of this, as i am as i said pretty sure its not an original, no offence!!! Yet, even if this watch WERE an original, it would fetch around 1000-1700 US, so its not worth considering a sale, and i am sure it is a prized possesion! All the best, Robbie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 The finishing of the movement is suspect to me, and I believe the dial print is wrong too. Yet you offered a 90€ Asian movement 111h for 140€ claiming it was Swiss? I'm withholding judgement on your movement spotting skills for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Yet you offered a 90€ Asian movement 111h for 140€ claiming it was Swiss? I'm withholding judgement on your movement spotting skills for now. Feel free! I did explain, if you had read my reply properly, that i viewed several levels of finish quality on the Pam 111H, and the one i bought was better quality than others that had glued on bridges, etc. I did not CLAIM it was swiss, I said i presumed it was and i sold the watch without having stated it was 100 % guaranteed swiss. I would like to see you keep your cool on all movements after looking at 1000 watches! anyway, I have seen watchsmiths that have worked for Rolex or IWC for a long time get fooled by reps, and even the large auction houses with loads of experience ( especially antiquorum comes to mind ) have made many a large mistake in the past. Its an open secret that a Patek ref. 130 in steel sold at Antiquorum with an unusual dial layout was an outright fake, one that cost the buyer quite a sum of money! sooo, as i said, it is just my 2 cents, I am not asking anyone to take what i said for the holy truth..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I would like to see you keep your cool on all movements after looking at 1000 watches! No chance. This is why I prefer to go on recommendations or use our dealers as personal-shoppers-by-proxy. ps. My gut tells me this is a gen PP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 ps. My gut tells me this is a gen PP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted February 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 Well, today I received the deluxe appraisal certificate from Omni's suggested website. May I just say that going for the 'deluxe' option did little to discourage the 'expert' appraiser from copying and pasting the Patek company history from their official website. The good news: It's a genuine Patek. The bad news: I shouldn't quit my job just yet. If you're interested in reading the full report, here it is: Appraised On: 20-02-2007 Title: 1930s-1940s Patek Philippe Wristwatch Date/Era/Period: 1930-1948 Description: This certainly is a Patek Philippe wristwatch but it is dated to a later period based upon the decoration and the shape of watch face. Since the bands are not present it also suggests that it was intended to be worn for its own purpose. It is marked but its has been taken apart which will compromise its value. Condition: Caseback has several scratches, glass has a scratch, dials were replaced because they were unsuitable for use. Face is genuine and in fair condition, movement keeps good time and as you will see by the pictures is very good condition. Has been rarely worn - when my mother wore it to a jeweler once, he was shocked and baffled at the piece. Appraised By: Rachael Goldman History Of The Item: The Patek Philippe watch company was started in Geneva, Switzerland in 1839. In 1868, the company produced the first Swiss wrist watch. They are still in business today. The Patek Phillipe watch is considered to be one of the world's finest timepieces. Pocket watches of this type are generally more expensive because of the mechanism and the designs involved. Appraiser Tips: It is best to have a professional dealer in Patek Philippe & Co. watches and pocket watches handle this watch with regards to repairs in the future. It is important to note that the mechanism of this watch is supremely significant and the winding is necessary. First get a new band for the watch so that it can be worn well. Research Sources: A number of resources have been used not limited to my own experience in the field: www.p4a.com www.sothebys.com There are a number of comparables for a pocket watch of this type: www.bogoff.com/pocket/pocket.html www.patek.com Appraiser Comments: Hello, this is Rachael Goldman from New Jersey. Your request for an appraisal has been referred to me for reply. I have closely examined the information you submitted. This watch may have a future after some significant restorative care. It was made in the early 1900s based upon the construction of the numbers and the detailings throughout. It is best to note the significant changes in the numbers and the presentation of the watch itself. As you note the movements are all the same as Patek Philippe is a company that strives for precision but since it has been compared to later watches and timepieces, it has a modernist feel similar to that in the Art Deco period with smooth and clean lines. Keep in mind that the values listed below can vary depending upon how and where marketed, locale, and may vary across different collecting disciplines. If you are satisfied with the services I have rendered, I would be most grateful if you would take the time to leave some positive feedback. Kindest regards, Rachael Goldman, MA Ph.D. Candidate in Art History CUNY-GC Senior Certified Member Appraisers Association of America Assumptions and Limiting Conditions. This certificate of appraisal is given subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set forth, all of which are a part hereof unless expressly set aside in writing either on the pages of this certificate or by writing attached to the certificate signed by all parties concerned. It is important to note that interesting and exciting discoveries can be found out about your piece after the appraisal. The field of antiques is like a treasure hunt and while I can do my best to research your piece, it may be possible that you will learn even more about your piece afterwards. The appraiser, Rachael Goldman, is not responsible for any discoveries or additional research made after this limited appraisal from other sources. * Current Fair Market Value: $300.00 WhatsItWorthToYou.com ** Replacement Cost: $500.00 --- I'm dissapointed that it's not what I dreamed it was... but I'm also somewhat happy, because I won't let it go for that price - ever. It will stay in the family, and at least I can point to a watch among my collection of lovely replicas and say with pride this one is actually a genuine vintage Patek Philippe. I guess in the end, that's all I really wanted. Thanks for your help everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 well, pugwash, there ya go, your gut was better than mine!!!damn, could have sworn.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 well, pugwash, there ya go, your gut was better than mine!!!damn, could have sworn.................. It's ok, you'll get used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydneysider Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 It's ok, you'll get used to it. yup, we ´ll see about that:), hell, I´m sure your gut is bigger than mine too............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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