mrnixon Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Not exactly a rep but I thought it still might be interesting for you guys here at the forum. Eddie at timefactors (who made the Dreadnaught and Speedbird models) has made his own modern interpretation of the old Panerai/Rolex divers watch. The project has lasted for a long time but I think now it is finally done and the watch will be launched pretty soon I think. A beautiful watch and I think also the quality will be very good: http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t...cfef505142d4d9f Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 (edited) And your point is...........? A beautiful watch and I think also the quality will be very good: Do you think it will be more beautiful than any of these......what's the point of these homage watches.........I can't quite see it.......all I can see is someone pinching an old design and cobbling together a collection of bits in order to make it appealing to all the anoraks that live in a fantasy world of militaria and think they're buying a tribute to some piece of 'history".....personally I appreciate the honesty of the genuine fakers who don't hide behind all that [censored]......they quite simply make the watch because it generates a profit.....and is in demand.....! Edited March 11, 2007 by TTK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 And your point is...........? Do you think it will be more beautiful than any of these......what's the point of these homage watches......... Well, the point is just what I wrote. I think it is a beautiful watch. And I think that can be enough reason to buy a watch. If it is more or less beautiful than some of the ones you are attaching, well that I think can be left to the individual to decide. The quality of the watches from Eddie is good, for those concerned with that. I think there is point with this type of watches as well. One point can of course be that I buy the watch because I like the design of it. I am one of those for example. I bought a homer unlabeled watch a while ago because I like the looks and the feeling of it. One can see from 50 meters distance that it is not a Panerai, which for me is of no concern at all. (Today actually I also ordered a second one, but in titanium). Another point can be that it is not a fake watch, with everything comming along with that, such as the fact that it is illegal, signals it sends out, watchmakers dont want to deal with them etc. For example alot of people simply dont like fake watches and dont want to wear them nor buy them. For people with that opinion I think Eddies watches offer a nice opportunity. So, to answer your question, I think there is room for this type of watch in the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 @mrn.......I agree to a certain extent with some of what you say......but the point is that these are still replicas......they are still plagiarising the 'design' of the original......the fact that it doesn't have the logo on the dial....doesn't lend it credence.......it's still a fake......as for Eddies quality....I would venture to say it's no better than the casework quality we see on a regular basis......! As for the appreiation of the design of it......that appreciation should really be extended to the original......not a pastiche of it......my point about the honesty of the fakes that we buy is that we buy not only for the appreciation of the design...but the cachet that is attached to it.......there is no cachet attached to these homage watches.....nor any attempt at original design.....! In all likelihood Eddie gets his cases from the same factories that supply our suppliers.....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 as for Eddies quality....I would venture to say it's no better than the casework quality we see on a regular basis......! In all likelihood Eddie gets his cases from the same factories that supply our suppliers.....! The design is as I see it a question of taste, and that is individual and therefore not much point continuing discussing. About the quality issues, there are some facts worth noting. About choice of suppliers. Eddie buys his casees from a German manufacturer of mechanical parts called Fricker. As long as I have been following related forums, I have rarely come across any comments on quality problems. And many of his watches have been out there for a pretty long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 It just looks like a rep to me, without the Panerai stuff on the dial, it's even got the poor lume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willith Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 Not as interesting as his other projects, but I'm sure there are some who are interested. I wish I had got one of the Dreadnaught's they are nice looking watches and have a HUGE resale value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longshot Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 what i really don't get is... the guys on tz or mwr etc are so anti rep[/b ]but if eddie copies the case, dial and hands and crown and doesn't put the logo on it than it's all perfectly ok? i had a PRS-1 and a dreadnought. the speedbird was too small for me and the dreadnought was just too big and clunky. i did make money on the dreadnought (i sold it when the price had almost doubled ) and that was cool. but that is the only one of his watches that's not pretty damn close to being a rep? i find the replica vs homage thing to be a pretty thin line. if there really is a line at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 i find the replica vs homage thing to be a pretty thin line. if there really is a line at all Aggree with you, it is in a grey zone. Since we are talking about design it is difficult to really decide. For example the model Eddie offers doesnt, as far as I know, replicate any of Pam existing models, although there are certain similarities. However, there is as I see it at least one clear line of what defintitely is a rep, and that is when a watch has the name of a well-known manufacturer on it. Then it stating being a Panerai but has actually nothing to do with Panerai. Until you come to that line I guess it is a question of preferences. For example a Japanes court decided that RXW's MM was a copy of 1950, although it does not say Panerai on it. Personally I like the Precista Italian. I dont know if I am going to buy it though. In terms of quality I think it is very well made (probably no exploding crystals, worn out threads etc), but it is also considerably more expensive than the stuff we see here at the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfreeman420 Posted March 11, 2007 Report Share Posted March 11, 2007 These type of things getting posted on TZ are quite hypocritical. The term homage is just a rouse the so called purists use to help them sleep at night. At least we have enough balls to say yeah I wear fake watches, what of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Well if homages are basically reps, and we like reps, we should like homages right? But I have to admit, I'm not really sure I would buy homages of watches long out of production. That seems to be the one surefire instance you CAN justify buying a rep and admitting your watch is a rep -- if the gen is 70 years old, there's like 14 of them and cost umpteen thousand dollars. It's like with replica cars -- you'd feel like a bit of a tool to be driving a replica 2007 Mercedes, but I don't think anybody would give you a hard time for driving a replica 1937 Mercedes if you said "I love the look but the gen is ludicrously expensive and extremely difficult to drive and maintain." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I agree with you. To be honest I feel a bit divided when it comes to buying a rep. (I have been collecting gen vintage sports Rolexes for 15 years). I like the design, but I also have the feeling of trying to appear as something I am not. And if someone asks me I think I would also feel a bit awkward saying it is a fake watch. I solved my dilema by getting a Pam 111 and soon a 177 unlabeled (ie totally clean no text at all). Then I get the design and the feeling but everybody can see from 20 meters that I am not wearing a Panerai, so no one would think I am going around trying to show of with something which is not real. I also would not have the same problem if it is a homage from an historic model no longer in production, with the same logic as you mentioned below with a classic car. This is just the way I am thinking, and I am sure other people have different views so it is up to each one of us to have our own opinion. Well if homages are basically reps, and we like reps, we should like homages right? But I have to admit, I'm not really sure I would buy homages of watches long out of production. That seems to be the one surefire instance you CAN justify buying a rep and admitting your watch is a rep -- if the gen is 70 years old, there's like 14 of them and cost umpteen thousand dollars. It's like with replica cars -- you'd feel like a bit of a tool to be driving a replica 2007 Mercedes, but I don't think anybody would give you a hard time for driving a replica 1937 Mercedes if you said "I love the look but the gen is ludicrously expensive and extremely difficult to drive and maintain." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver_dylan Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Here is the logic. Wood floats. Ducks float. Ducks are wood. lol I think is obscene too. I see reps all the time on TZ and PMWF. You know the ones. The Rollie GMT2 clones, with another name on them. W something or other, or Marcello whats his face. Its ballzy though...Ill give them that. The Anonimo Panny clones I think it is. The ones with just Marina Militare. And for how much?! A grand or more. I dont know who the bigger fools are....the buyers of them or me for not selling them! How they get away with it Ill never know. :-/ D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I did not really understand the logic with the wood and the duck. Well, actually I did not understand what is to be referred to as obscene on a RW forum when discussing watches far less similar than the watches discussed here. Is what you call obscene the fact that they are to similar to a gen, or is the fact that they are not similar enough to qualify for this forum? Here is the logic. Wood floats. Ducks float. Ducks are wood. lol I think is obscene too. I see reps all the time on TZ and PMWF. You know the ones. The Rollie GMT2 clones, with another name on them. W something or other, or Marcello whats his face. Its ballzy though...Ill give them that. The Anonimo Panny clones I think it is. The ones with just Marina Militare. And for how much?! A grand or more. I dont know who the bigger fools are....the buyers of them or me for not selling them! How they get away with it Ill never know. :-/ D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver_dylan Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 I like reps. Lets get that out of the way. But as was said above...reps that are REPS..not ones that purport to be "unknown brand gens".Ones that just so happen to be EXACT copies of watches we know. The big gen sites (ie TZ, P'risti, etc) regularly call us out as scum, but allow the mentioned "reps" to be sold on their forums b/c of a slight modification to the dials. Their logic: Reps are bad. Gens are good. Reps are gens. (within the aforementioned modified criteria) D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanerich Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I agree with you. To be honest I feel a bit divided when it comes to buying a rep. (I have been collecting gen vintage sports Rolexes for 15 years). I like the design, but I also have the feeling of trying to appear as something I am not. And if someone asks me I think I would also feel a bit awkward saying it is a fake watch. I solved my dilema by getting a Pam 111 and soon a 177 unlabeled (ie totally clean no text at all). Then I get the design and the feeling but everybody can see from 20 meters that I am not wearing a Panerai, so no one would think I am going around trying to show of with something which is not real. I also would not have the same problem if it is a homage from an historic model no longer in production, with the same logic as you mentioned below with a classic car. This is just the way I am thinking, and I am sure other people have different views so it is up to each one of us to have our own opinion. I think we probably aren't that far off in terms of how we feel -- I mean, I think reps are great and they scratch an itch I have for watches without breaking the bank, but I like watches, not reps, so I'm not going to write off the worth or charm of an homage or gen just because I have some misplaced loyalty toward reps only. Your post underscores how a LOT of members justify buying reps by saying "I buy reps because I like the great design of gens but feel like they're ripoffs, absolutely not because I'm a brand [censored]" but then when someone points out homage watches provide what a lot of members of this board claim they want, which is legitimately replicate the look and function of a more expensive watch for WIS's without unlimited budgets while providing things like some QC and a warranty, etc, the same people often sneer "what kind of dumbass would get some lame knockoff," indicating really it is mostly about pretending that the watch is something it's not, and not about what the watch has to offer. Which I can accept as a motive (99.9% of us are guilty of it to some extent), except some of the same people then turn around and throw people on TZ, PMWF, and really mainstream WIS's in general under the bus for respecting homages but being contemptible of reps. That's disingenuous to me, although I have admit no more disingenuous than WIS's who sniff "I don't understand why anybody buys reps." That's just stupid. You may not do it, but to say you are incapable of understanding the thinking behind it is to announce you have a truly limited capacity to understand human behavior. Yeah, I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth . . . it's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I dont see the problem. It is simply because they consider the homage watches not being fakes? What is so obscene with that? The most distinct aspect is for example that it is not written Panerai on a watch manufactured by someone having absolutely nothing to do with Panerai. From this point of view, I guess one could instead argue that the gen guys are liberal or open minded to homages as long as it is not written Panerai on the watch. The fact that a rep has the name of a manufacturer on definitily qualifies it to be a rep. Absolutely no doubt about that. But when there is no name there is a grey zone, and it seem that the gen guys can accept that, which is not obscene at all I think. The initial logic I still not understand. And if you changes the criteria in the second explantory one the entire logic falls. But never mind.... I like reps. Lets get that out of the way. But as was said above...reps that are REPS..not ones that purport to be "unknown brand gens".Ones that just so happen to be EXACT copies of watches we know. The big gen sites (ie TZ, P'risti, etc) regularly call us out as scum, but allow the mentioned "reps" to be sold on their forums b/c of a slight modification to the dials. Their logic: Reps are bad. Gens are good. Reps are gens. (within the aforementioned modified criteria) D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diver_dylan Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Ah yes, that great river in Egypt. That gets many by with their "homage" watches. But even then Im ok with it...its the obscene prices they fetch. Like RXW! Give me a bleeding break! Maybe I can get a watchmaker to put an RXW dial on my River Pam005? Then I can get a grand for it on TZ! Who would be in the wrong? I just made a rep of a rep, right? I think Ive found a market! Im gonna be rich! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coquin Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Surely the whole hommage/fake/replica argument is about whether it's intended to deceive or not? A fake either deceived the unwary buyer or is intended to deceive the friends of those who wear them. If you want a watch which says Panerai on the dial, then buy a Panerai. Coquin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 If you want a watch which says Panerai on the dial, then buy a Panerai. Are you sure you're on the right forum? A homage is a copy but isn't a trademark infringement. It's a really simple division. Homages are legal and trademark infringements aren't, and that's the criteria used by the gen forums. I can't see where the grey area is. And I've got a watch that says Panerai on the dial, but it's counterfeit. I can live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seank1 Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 The gray area is that these TZ watch guys thumb their noses at the reps but cream there pants if someone copys a gen but doesn't put Panerai on the dial. You can defend all you want and in a legal sense you're correct but the bottom line is its still a replica. How would buying one of Davidsen's unbranded dial watches with a stock movement be any different. Sean K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 First of all I am not trying to defend a certain watch over another. Although I must say I get a bit confused by the rather negative remarks. But, there is a hell of a difference if there is a fake name on a product or not. If you have written eg Panerai you are showing the name of a company which has nothing to do with the product. If it does not have a name one can argue whether it is a copy or not, but if it has Panerai name on it. Well, then there is no discussion anymore. This is also what you can see at watch forums. MM causes a lot of discussions and strong opinions Some seem to like them and others dont. Fakes (ie with a brand name on them) never trigger that type of discussions. Everybody aggrees that it is a fake watch and as you say their members hate them. The gray area is that these TZ watch guys thumb their noses at the reps but cream there pants if someone copys a gen but doesn't put Panerai on the dial. You can defend all you want and in a legal sense you're correct but the bottom line is its still a replica. How would buying one of Davidsen's unbranded dial watches with a stock movement be any different. Sean K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 A homage is a copy but isn't a trademark infringement. It's a really simple division. Homages are legal and trademark infringements aren't, and that's the criteria used by the gen forums. I can't see where the grey area is. An example of grey area is for example the Rxw Marina Militare. And that seems to be the reason why we see all the debates about it. The clear cut rep watches there is no discussion about, nor the gens. But the ones in the middle is where we can see different opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrnixon Posted March 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 Aggree with you in your points about "I like the design" points. Although I have not bought one myself, I can fully understand why people by reps. One reason can of course be that one can show off, and also at a lower cost. Although not many people here probably dont want to admit it, it is probably the case. Other reasons can be the logic "well, I get a watch which is almost as good and beautiful but for 10% of the money". It is also good if you are somewhere where you risk loosing or destroying your watch. Others I think like the mechanical handy part of it and see it as an acheivement or a challange to make "the perfect rep". Personally I read the technical discussions with great interest. Personally I can say that I bought my Homer because I like the design and its quality. If I want to show off I would wear my vintage gen Rolex Seadweller. It is much better from that point of view. Everybody knows about Rolex and the ones knowing a little bit more also realize that it is a collectors watch. Still, I mast say that since I bought my unlabelled Homer, I think it has gotten 90% of the wrist time. Simply because I personlly like the design and to look at it. Your post underscores how a LOT of members justify buying reps by saying "I buy reps because I like the great design of gens but feel like they're ripoffs, absolutely not because I'm a brand [censored]" but then when someone points out homage watches provide what a lot of members of this board claim they want, which is legitimately replicate the look and function of a more expensive watch for WIS's without unlimited budgets while providing things like some QC and a warranty, etc, the same people often sneer "what kind of dumbass would get some lame knockoff," indicating really it is mostly about pretending that the watch is something it's not, and not about what the watch has to offer. Which I can accept as a motive (99.9% of us are guilty of it to some extent), except some of the same people then turn around and throw people on TZ, PMWF, and really mainstream WIS's in general under the bus for respecting homages but being contemptible of reps. That's disingenuous to me, although I have admit no more disingenuous than WIS's who sniff "I don't understand why anybody buys reps." That's just stupid. You may not do it, but to say you are incapable of understanding the thinking behind it is to announce you have a truly limited capacity to understand human behavior. Yeah, I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth . . . it's what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 I don't understand why so much discussion for that watch... It is a rep and it is ugly.. He has done some minor adjustments to the design (to get the hommage label) that gave the watch a worse look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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