trustywatchguy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 We appreciate the lengths that have been gone to but can you please address the fact that you state: ETA Movement When it is a $2 chines piece of [censored]. Where is your reasoning for inflated cost if the watch doesn't contain the expensive ETA movement. How can you justify charging huge prices for something containing a $2 Seagull movement????? USD2 for that movement? If you can get that for USD2, I gladly buy 100 pieces from you NOW because the movement does not cost USD2 at all. I still have 50 cases which need movements so if you really can get them at USD2, please sell them to me. I dont mean to offend anyone but that movement is not USD2 and definitely also a 28,800bph movement. It was checked 100% to be a worthy movement. In China, this is know as the ETA 2982 Clone and I think Josh and I have said that many times and even have stressed that we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone. Why cant anyone appreciate the efforts in coming with this Bell and Ross that took pains to make and we had to pool in money to get this done with all the risks involve? Why dont you put yourselves in our shoes and think about this... Maker insisted we take 500 cases to start off and that was one of the biggest risks we have to take... if it doesnt sell, we can sleep with the cases and straps... =P Take a step backwards and ponder, guys... I think I have said enough... I dont usually say so much Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolfire Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 We appreciate the lengths that have been gone to but can you please address the fact that you state: ETA Movement When it is a $2 chines piece of [censored]. Where is your reasoning for inflated cost if the watch doesn't contain the expensive ETA movement. How can you justify charging huge prices for something containing a $2 Seagull movement????? WOW.. So the scarcity of eta movements make it plausible and correct to state that these $2 movements ARE etas?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 For somebody like myself who wants to purchase a rep TT sub from Josh, do you think it has the correct ETA movement as per the description or do you think it has the $2 movement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 The movement in the B&R was no thicker than an ETA or Seagull 2892. The 2892 is one of the thinnest movements produced today, and the Seagull copy is identical to the ETA one, so I am confused why this $2 movement was chosen over the Seagull one. ETA I can understand the problem getting them, Seagull, well they sell to anyone dont' they, and they are brand new movements, not surplus ETA ones... I have no idea what is going on anymore, and why and how it got this way, or what the solution is. Certainly I am not prepared to police the movements being offered and analyse each and everyone and provide feedback. It's got to change at the source. This is not hard stuff, simply describe without BS what is in the watch, and provide a DETAILED picture of the movement... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 (edited) As I said, the price issue doesn't bother me much...but the exaggerations crossing lines into outright misrepresentations...that's another issue. I, for one, appreciate Trusty's interaction in the discussion but the statement above, I think, is a central theme that most are concerned about. I have no doubt that it is getting more difficult to do business and that this can effect price. We just want an even keel on watch and movement descriptions. We just want to know what we are buying. We will still buy. Usil Edited March 27, 2007 by Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustywatchguy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Experts? Wait till you step in China to the entire replica industry, then you will know a watchsmith who works on watches alone will never be able to learn everything that exist int he world of watches (Genuines or replicas ). Even my watchsmith friend who has been a watchsmith his whole life dare not say he knows all about movements and all because in the watch industry in China, there are REALLY TOO MANY THINGS - Movements, Straps, Watches and everything is really outta of the world. If you know Quartz... there are 100 different versions of Quartz movements all over. Even I myself is learning everyday on different ones... Just a simple topic on Leather Straps... there are tons of knowledge you and I can never attain... The entire watch replica industry is not what you think to be, guys. I used to think like you guys but once I step into this Dark World of reps, there are more to be learned and that humbles me whenever I meet up with the Makers. Their knowledge can put all of us to shame. =) Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 USD2 for that movement? If you can get that for USD2, I gladly buy 100 pieces from you NOW because the movement does not cost USD2 at all. I still have 50 cases which need movements so if you really can get them at USD2, please sell them to me. I dont mean to offend anyone but that movement is not USD2 and definitely also a 28,800bph movement. It was checked 100% to be a worthy movement. In China, this is know as the ETA 2982 Clone and I think Josh and I have said that many times and even have stressed that we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone. Why cant anyone appreciate the efforts in coming with this Bell and Ross that took pains to make and we had to pool in money to get this done with all the risks involve? Why dont you put yourselves in our shoes and think about this... Maker insisted we take 500 cases to start off and that was one of the biggest risks we have to take... if it doesnt sell, we can sleep with the cases and straps... =P Take a step backwards and ponder, guys... I think I have said enough... I dont usually say so much Andrew That's pretty close to an admission of the pressures and risk you are under as a dealer and I can appreciate that but Andrew, this movement might be known in China as the ETA 2892 clone, but you are selling to a world wide market for whom ETA 2892 means what you well know it means. It sounds like, between the lines, you are saying, "We took enormous risk getting this to the community and we screwed up cutting corners with the movement because of the pressure we were under." I just wish you would come out and say exactly that. For somebody like myself who wants to purchase a rep TT sub from Josh, do you think it has the correct ETA movement as per the description or do you think it has the $2 movement? The thread is all about you right Corgi????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 In China, this is know as the ETA 2982 Clone and I think Josh and I have said that many times and even have stressed that we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone. Why cant anyone appreciate the efforts in coming with this Bell and Ross that took pains to make and we had to pool in money to get this done with all the risks involve? I don't give a flying [censored] what it gets called in China. Look at the thing with your own eyes and decide for yourself if what it is is what you've been told it is. You are either being willfully ignorant or you are as thick as [censored] when it comes to watches. Which one is it?! Edit to add.. Take that with you next time you are buying a case of movements. Might save you being ripped off in future....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Andrew, my advice would always be to communicate with the members. While certainly everybody will agree that it is great if you guys come up with new watches (like the B&R et al) and even better, if you are open to input from experienced members on how to tweak reps to become even better, it is the lack of communication that allows for conspiraciy theories to grow. If the general concensus is that something is not ok, stand up to the criticism, correct the problem and move on. Noone gets beaten because they make mistakes. It's the way you deal with your mistakes that makes the difference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 USD2 for that movement? If you can get that for USD2, I gladly buy 100 pieces from you NOW because the movement does not cost USD2 at all. I still have 50 cases which need movements so if you really can get them at USD2, please sell them to me. I dont mean to offend anyone but that movement is not USD2 and definitely also a 28,800bph movement. It was checked 100% to be a worthy movement It may not cost $2 (I picked that number out of the air), but certainly not more than $10. I can buy DG 2813 movements from my supplier for just over $10 each, and they are good quality movements. I can also buy similar types of movements to this one for under $10 each... This one was not near the quality of the DG 2813, so if a DG 2813 sells for $10, how much would this one sell for? Along with the problem with the balance wheel, when I tried to install the stem, the keyless works popped out of place due to poor design and parts quality, and I had to take the watch apart and fix it. The fact a movement runs at 28,800 bph, does not in itself make it a good movement. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I will thank Andrew for speaking up and taking part in this discussion. He's always proven to be reasonable and "trusty". We do need these guys to communicate with us..otherwise we really have no way of knowing how it works on the "other side". But The Zigmeister is correct...just accurately describe what's in the watch and take an accurate photograph....seems this would correct a lot..no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 In China, this is know as the ETA 2982 Clone and I think Josh and I have said that many times and even have stressed that we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone. Sorry WHAT?? So what you are saying is that a movement which is in general unlubricated and has no quality control, frequently arrives DOA and is VERY poorly put together is an ETA clone. This movement is not only COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to the ETA which you suggest it is a clone of but a GENUINE ETA or the actual Asian ETA clone which has been reviewed here a few times now, DOESN'T FIT in the case, so how can this be an ETA clone. Why did you put ETA 2892 on there? It bares NO resemblence to the ETA 2892, works and looks nothing like it, is a completely different size, andisn't made by ETA, so where exactly does any of this emrit that it even be remotely compared to the ETA. Sorry but this is complete horseshit. The movement isn't even close to the ETA 2892 never mind a clone. So let's not beat around the bush mate, you LIED in your description, plain and simple. No if's, no but's, no maybe's, IT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustywatchguy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 WOW.. So the scarcity of eta movements make it plausible and correct to state that these $2 movements ARE etas?? You think making reps in small quantities is cheap... I will be bold enough to ask you: Why dont you make a replica of the Bell and Ross for me? Then you tell me the investment you need to put in? Thanks! I think I have said enough. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I have come to posess information regarding these complaints however, as Pug rightly said, it is not my place to disclose information pertaining to dealings between members and dealers, the onus is on these members themselves to post specifics, I am merely informing you of the outline of things I have come to know. There will however be some specifics coming soon. Look, not for anything... I know your intentions are honorable and in the best interests of the membership...I appreciate the post... but I agree with Dr.Cranium. I think some of us have had our suspicons, and to that end your allusions may be well founded, but without the specifics it is like half a post... you've already put your neck on the line.. why not go all the way? i am not suggesting you name names but greater specificity around the complaints would help. Otherwise, it is like you are saying.. "trust me, i know this is happening, but i cannot tell you why.." Again, no offense, but I just don't know you that well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Why dont you make a replica of the Bell and Ross for me? Carrots for the ignorant. If the B&R you make is up to the quality you then peddled in here as 'superlumed and ETA2892' then it is as good as not having it. We don't want your [censored]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustywatchguy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 (edited) Sorry WHAT?? So what you are saying is that a movement which is in general unlubricated and has no quality control, frequently arrives DOA and is VERY poorly put together is an ETA clone. This movement is not only COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to the ETA which you suggest it is a clone of but a GENUINE ETA or the actual Asian ETA clone which has been reviewed here a few times now, DOESN'T FIT in the case, so how can this be an ETA clone. Why did you put ETA 2892 on there? It bares NO resemblence to the ETA 2892, works and looks nothing like it, is a completely different size, andisn't made by ETA, so where exactly does any of this emrit that it even be remotely compared to the ETA. Sorry but this is complete horseshit. The movement isn't even close to the ETA 2892 never mind a clone. So let's not beat around the bush mate, you LIED in your description, plain and simple. No if's, no but's, no maybe's, IT IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. EDGE... You have no idea about reps. In the replica industry... for Swiss ETA 2892 movements, you need to order in advance (6 months) and pay the full amount first and it will only be delivered 6 months later. There is NO GUARANTEE that you will get the movements. I am not going to argue with you over this because you dont know about the replica industry in the first place. If you want, I can bring you there and you can see for yourself. It's no kid's stuff By the way, an Swiss ETA 2892 movement cost more than USD200 and in the range of USD250 per piece. You should know that it isnt possible to sell with that movement since you are an expert right? Andrew Edited March 27, 2007 by trustywatchguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I will be bold enough to ask you: Why dont you make a replica of the Bell and Ross for me? Then you tell me the investment you need to put in? Why don't you make a rep and then advertise it without lying to increase your profit margin. If you had indeed told everyone you put a piece of [censored] movement in it to try and cut cost then we wouldn't have an issue now would we. But you obviously realised this would curtail your sales, so thought you would try and get away with misrepresenting the movement, and hoping that we are all ignorant enough or intimidated enough not to call you out on it. Well you almost got away with it but NO we aren't gonna stand for being taken for idiots and it's high time that you realise if you keep treating us this way, your existence will be shortlived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 You think making reps in small quantities is cheap... I will be bold enough to ask you: Why dont you make a replica of the Bell and Ross for me? Then you tell me the investment you need to put in? Thanks! I think I have said enough. Andrew Translation: "I did the best I could.....I made some bad decisions....If you think it's so easy you try it....F all of you!" I don't know if that qualifies as an honest discussion of the facts of the watch in question but it sounds like that's about as close as we're going to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baltic Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Well done Edge for raising this. Things have certainly changed since I got into reps and joined RWG 1, mainly for the better, however it feels to me that 'something is afoot in the state of Denmark' (apols to the Bard) with accusations of cartels, old time dealers disappearing (Eddie etc) and QC issues increasing. I'm watching this with interest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustywatchguy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Translation: "I did the best I could.....I made some bad decisions....If you think it's so easy you try it....F all of you!" I don't know if that qualifies as an honest discussion of the facts of the watch in question but it sounds like that's about as close as we're going to get. I think you have been real rude to translate in that way. As I said earlier, a Swiss ETA 2892 cost USD200-USD250. Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I'm just asking a question here, not taking any side, but could the price increases be explained by increased pressure, risk, and replacement liability assumed by the dealers in an enviornment where there's growing scrutney from IP infringement pressures and shippers? I kinda don't have a problem with higher prices per se. It's the misrepresentations that are the most egregious. It could be.. .but take the example of the ultimate PO... at least one of our smaller dealers has suggested to me that he could not get a ready supply because the 'bigger dealers' had pretty much cornered the market. Certainly sounds like at least some kind of cartel or loose partnership... I am not commenting on the ethics or legality of it becasue frankly, I am not sure .. i mean consolidation happens all the time in legitimate businesses... but the lack of competition and control of supply is certainly is not good for consumers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chubbchubb Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 In the replica industry... for Swiss ETA 2892 movements, you need to order in advance (6 months) and pay the full amount first and it will only be delivered 6 months later. There is NO GUARANTEE that you will get the movements. But unless you share such information, nobody will understand. On the other hand, that is not an excuse for sticking an ETA label on a crap movement. I am sure that none of the buyers would have objected to pay an additional 10$ on top of the B&R for a decent CN movement. Just look at the way the SFSO sells... it is not about 10 bucks back or forth... it's about getting what you paid for and decided upon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve G Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 This is where I call [censored]. Andrew's right..we don't know all that goes on in this business, lead times to source movements, etc. BUT..when the factory is finally complete with the watch, the DEALER is now obligated to inspect and represent said watch on his respected website accurately. I know some will say...yes but how do we know that the whole lot is reflective of the sample...and I'm assuming there is a sample..I have a feeling that Andrew or Josh may never even see the final watch..I'd like to think they do. But if I buy a watch from a dealer that has some 21 jewel asian movement...then try to unload it on a member claiming it's an ETA, because that's how it was sold to me...I'd be cast out of here, called a liar and a thief. I the seller has to know what I'm selling, I am responsible for representing my wares accurately. It should be no different here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 EDGE... You have no idea about reps. In the replica industry... for Swiss ETA 2892 movements, you need to order in advance (6 months) and pay the full amount first and it will only be delivered 6 months later. There is NO GUARANTEE that you will get the movements. I am not going to argue with you over this because you dont know about the replica industry in the first place. If you want, I can bring you there and you can see for yourself. It's no kid's stuff Andrew To be honest I don't give a [censored], how you have to operate, that is your choice to be a dealer and you have to take the stigma that comes with it. All we are asking is that if you put on your website that you have an ETA or ETA clone that it is indeed that, and not some cheap piece of [censored] movement that doesn't even vaguely resemble an ETA. If you decided that it was more prudent to use a non swiss movement NOONE would have had an issue, but the fact that you lied has [censored] everyone right off by misrepresenting what you were selling instead of just telling the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 You have no idea about reps. In the replica industry... for Swiss ETA 2892 movements, you need to order in advance (6 months) and pay the full amount first and it will only be delivered 6 months later. There is NO GUARANTEE that you will get the movements. I am not going to argue with you over this because you dont know about the replica industry in the first place. If you want, I can bring you there and you can see for yourself. It's no kid's stuff By the way, an Swiss ETA 2892 movement cost more than USD200 and in the range of USD250 per piece. You should know that it isnt possible to sell with that movement since you are an expert right? BOO [censored]ING HOO. This is all irrelevant detail. Are we supposed to feel sympathetic and somehow accept that the restricted availability of 2892 movements makes it acceptable to misrepresent something else as 2892 because that it what we really want. You think you are selling dreams or something ie. if you can fool us into believing it is a 2892 then that justifies the money. [censored] off Andrew - this really is showing you for what you are. If the movements aren't available then say so, substitute them with something else, disclose what the substitute is and drop the price. You were always going to get caught - it was only a matter of time before enough evidence was gathered to prove that you have been lying. The B&R movement isn't a 2892, isn't even close to being a 2892. You might have well have called it a 7750 (notwithstanding the fact of course that using the 2892 number makes us all think it has a movement like the genuine...... ohhh, ahhh, suddenly we are all interested........!!!) No sympathy vote will change what you've been doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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