Submariner 1680 red

[hemicuda]

[By-Tor]

This is difficult. My guess: the case isn't genuine... the cg's look wrongly shaped... especially the upper one. But I've never seen such dial on a replica red Sub... with correct low SUBMARINER font. But then again ROLEX and Swiss t<25 markings look suspect. Maybe they have been repainted or something?

I say franken. But extremely nice.

[polexpete]

This is difficult. My guess: the case isn't genuine... the cg's look wrongly shaped... especially the upper one. But I've never seen such dial on a replica red Sub... with correct low SUBMARINER font. But then again ROLEX and Swiss t<25 markings look suspect. Maybe they have been repainted or something?

I say franken. But extremely nice.

I reckon its a gen. The dial is an early version from late sixties with m/ft. These had the Rolex letters slighty spaced apart compared to later versions. I say its a gen only because as Bytor said i've never seen such a dial on anything but.

Hope i'm wrong and there is someone out there producing decent red dials at last.

P.

[By-Tor]

I'm not questioning the shape and spacing of the ROLEX... it's the letters that look almost hand-written and sloppy. The crown symbol on the dial looks good though.

But that being said... I think you're right. I changed my mind. This is way too nice to be a rep. I guess it's impossible to source rep/aftermarket dials with that low, red SUBMARINER text. Though it would be nice to see the cg's from straight ahead angle, crown screwed in. There's something I don't like about those cg's... but I could be seeing things.

[chubbchubb]

My guess would be franken... but a very nice one. Dial repainted - very nicely. The usual gen parts. What makes me think franken is the upper inside CG - it is almost impossible to bang a watch there, so the "injury" is probably from shaping .... ( on the other hand.... if you go through the effort of bulding a franken, woudn't you take a close look at it?)

[By-Tor]

My guess would be franken... but a very nice one. Dial repainted - very nicely. The usual gen parts. What makes me think franken is the upper inside CG - it is almost impossible to bang a watch there, so the "injury" is probably from shaping .... ( on the other hand.... if you go through the effort of bulding a franken, woudn't you take a close look at it?)

Exactly my thoughts. I didn't like the shape. The cg's curve down too excessively as well... a'la MBW.

But damn... if this is rep I want to know where did he get such dial.

[capt_cope]

Well I can't tell by looking at it, though if I saw it on the street I'd probably stop the person and ask about it. I always thought the meters/feet versions were some serious collectors pieces.

[alligoat]

If that's a rep dial, it's the best damn red sub rep dial I've ever seen! In fact, I'd love to get one if it is. It's light years ahead of the repainted red sub dial in my gen! So, I figure it's got to be GEN!

But I can't explain the cg's either.

A gen dial in an MBW case with the watchmeisters overlay?

Great pics, BTW, hemicuda.

[elprimerozen]

MBW case. Repainted dial( very big gap 200/600 and superlative chronometer)

GEN

early version from late sixties

[By-Tor]

Observe the cg's on the gen too. Spiky and they have the "chops" look... not like MBW's bulky and clumsy... so it appears that my original "hunch" was correct. Repainted dial then...?

[alligoat]

If you go to Redwatches, you'll see a dial with the gap. And those open sixes are of course early

http://www.redwatches.com/page33.html

Like the DRSD, there were various versions of the dials

[elprimerozen]

If you go to Redwatches, you'll see a dial with the gap. And those open sixes are of course early

http://www.redwatches.com/page33.html

Like the DRSD, there were various versions of the dials

Yes with gap....bud no so big....Look my last pic.....Its easy to say various versions....

The first release of the red dial in 1967 (the earliest serial known to the author is 2,02X,XXX) and featured the

[Sir-Lancelot]

I am going to say genuine.

this one is nice, even tho the crown guards do look slightly off, they still have some things i dont usually see in modified rep guards.

Like how the guards fit behind the bezel except on the corners. that date wheel, is not a watchmeister. i have one of those and it looks fuzzy. this one looks nice and clean.

too many things look right for it to be wrong.

i am most likely very wrong.

That dial should be mine, give it to me.

nice watch. wear it well.

[elprimerozen]

The first release of the red dial in 1967 had 200/600 with the red submariner word clearly shorter in width than the depth rating. Several have been shown on various forums and have been 'verified' through a Rolex servicing Note that the top of the "f" in ft goes up and straight over.

Hemicudas

The green area is used the red area is new!!

[thewightstuff]

im going to say rep. the dial finish on the actual face doesnt strike me as being quite right, theres issues i see at first glance with the font on the dialk writing, the bezel font isnt quite right and the case doesnt hit home for me either.

all this may be wrong ofcourse but it would be more than enough to make me call it as a rep or walk away from a purchase.

often with reps when they get good, i find there a sum of tiny inconsistencies that give you an immediate feeling that its wrong. although the actual issues can be troublesome to single out or you can convince yourself that you are reading more into them and begin second guessing yourself this initial feeling almost always proves to have been correct

[eddhead]

you guys are all sick... impressive, but sick...

[Jimster]

The dial is fake. The coronet is almost touching the tip of the triangle.

My 2 cents.

Jim

[marsupilami]

It

[who]

Not sure it is gen or rep....but you guys are really good to pin point all the possible like a microscope.

I need learn more from you guys!

[hemicuda]

here other pix

[chubbchubb]

Whow.... that's a rare one... a lot of money, time and work went into this watch... bravo!

[alligoat]

That engraving is nice- none of that computer generated laser etching you see on rep cases. And there's no doubt about the movement and the datewheel. A side shot of the crown guards from say 5 o'clock would be nice, because the one thing about my gen 1680 is the the cg's hang down on the bottom- I guess because the stem/crown sits so low in the case. Crown and tube are the later 24-7030 replacement.

I still think the cg's are too fat and like EPZ, I don't particularly like the lugs, but there were three versions of the Submariner crown guards from the 60's into the 70's. Skeet and Urul shows a 5512 "with the third style of crown guards which had a rounded profile" which dates from the mid 60's (pg. 38). Could this be a early gen from the 1966-67 era?

[thewightstuff]

alligoat,

you can see in the batch of pics above that the CGs dont have the droop, the first pic shows it clearly but also so does the upside down ones.

my 5512 and 5513 are both from 67 and 66 respectively and droop also.

i dont have the skeet and ural book at hand but be wary of believing everything you read in there. its full of errors or less than clear explantations amongst the vintages for sure.

ive only ever seen two types of 5512 CG. the early ones with the pointed (diamond) shape CGs and then the later ones which were curved and remained for the rest of the line. these were introduced when the 5513 and 5512 began using the same case around 1965.

if anyone wasnt sure about the case, just look at the placement of the crown within the CGs when viewed dead on. the CGs curve more in across the top than the bottom. classic sign of a rep case where the hole for the stem is placed off centre. gens are centre and the curve of the CG follows the crown in under the bottom and not the top.

my gen sub cases dont have that notch either inside the case. maybe it was incorporated later on however but ive not seen it inside any gens ive looked in. it sure makes install/removal of the movement easier though. on the rolex you need to rotate it round quite a bit to free each case screw.

[alligoat]

Well wight, you make some good points.

On my '78 gen, the crown sits higher on the case when you look at it from the side, cg's droop, the bezel is much smoother and the indentations are less pronounced. Lugs are thinner.

The inside of the case looks pretty much like hemicudas, with the notch out of the ring on the side next to the balance- opposite the stem. I don't have time to open my WM since it's a bear to open and I have to go to work!

[polexpete]

Time to come clean hemicuda give us the juicy details...