Fighting words

[capt_cope]

Wow. I was floored while reading a thread about the tragedy at VT, but was even more astounded by these words posted by TTK:

"This freedom to bear arms needs to be challenged in the 21st century......we need to move towards a society where it is unaccpetable that the average citizen has access to weapons......assault rifles.....multiple guns ownership......etc etc.......there is simply no need for it....as demonstarted in many other countries worldwide........but this position will be disputed by Yanks.....and supported by Americans.........there is a significant difference......!

I was embroiled in a discussion with Fordzilla on the old RWG about gun ownership....his position was that he needed a gun to provide protection against armed burglars.......the truth is that any armed burglar is not likely to be a registered gun owner......but has more than likely stolen the gun from a registered gun owner......who ...if they hadn't had the gun in the first place.....would lead to the lack of need on Fordzilla's part to own a gun in teh second place....EVERY country in the world suffers from burglary.....involving simple theft or indeed violence against the homeowner.......howver because of the lack of access to a firearm.....the results are usually much different.........I keep a baseball bat as a deterrent to any possible intruder who is highly likely to be armed with a knife rather a gun.....!

The easy acquisiton pf guns.....allied to a media which perpetuates violence on TV / film and every applicable medium.....numbs most Americans to what is happening to it's society....!

I don't want to go thru' all the [censored] that I've seen in similar posts before......all I'll say is that I watch the media discussing what steps can be taken.....all the apologists are spouting off at the mouth about knee jerk reaction towards gun control....others are asking...'how can we determine what the lone gunman had going thru' his head'......they want to examine the psychology of the murderer......NONE of that will save the next massacre victims.........the TRUTH is that if ALL the gunmen involved had NO access to guns......these tragedies would be less devastating.....!

Guns are weapons.....specifically designed for killing....there is simply no good reason to own one.....!"

And as much as I hate to get angry at a forum memer, I just can't imagine what the [censored] is wrong with that guy's mind. I'll preface my comments with the fact that I am biased, very much so. I'm a life member of the NRA, I own many firearms, pistols, rifles, shotguns, and even "Assault weapons" if you want to call my FAL that. I love to shoot, it's a skill and hobby, just as modding watches is. I also love to hunt, never got into the deer hunting scene, but I love grouse and pheasant hunting, and am really taking to coyote hunting (around here those damn animals are smarter than most people I know.)

That said.

If Neil's current time is correct on the forums he clearly isn't in the US, and (in my opinion) has absolutely no basis for either judging American society, or deciding which of MY rights should be null. But be that as it may I'll address his points.

This freedom to bear arms needs to be challenged in the 21st century......we need to move towards a society where it is unaccpetable that the average citizen has access to weapons......assault rifles.....multiple guns ownership......etc etc.......there is simply no need for it....as demonstarted in many other countries worldwide........but this position will be disputed by Yanks.....and supported by Americans.........there is a significant difference......!

First off, how do you define need? Do you need a car? Cars contribute both directly and indirectly the destruction of our environment. Lots of people have them though, and lots of people have multiple cars. I don't need a gun to survive, but I do need guns to continue to enjoy a quality of life that I have been enjoying. Who are you to argue that my quality of life should be lessened? You bring up other countries as "proof" that no one needs guns. Funny, the last time I looked at the statistics crime, murders, and even *gasp* gun violence INCREASED after firearms were banned or restricted. (UK... Australia...) But we all know that those stats are twisted depending on the author's bias, so it's a toss up. You certianly don't have any more proof than I on that count.

The easy acquisiton pf guns.....allied to a media which perpetuates violence on TV / film and every applicable medium.....numbs most Americans to what is happening to it's society....!

Strange... I'm not numb to what is happening to our society. I see it every day I drive to work. Our society, based on strong religious convictions, is crumbling at our feet. Now I'm not saying that one religion is right, and all others are wrong, what I am saying is this: Most religions I am aware of seem to offer sets of guidelines for their followers. Usually some bit about "do unto others" is included in there. As more and more of our societies members become degenerates, so progresses our society. No longer is the majority concerned with the well being of their neighbors, but rather what they can steal from their neighbors. And this applies to both corrupt executives in large companies, continually shipping more and more jobs over to the east just to save a buck, and to your most basic of burglars. Both are raping our society for their own gain. If you really did your research on my society, you'd realize that doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns put together. Yet you tell me that I shouldn't have the right to own guns, because some degenerate somewhere might kill people with a gun? Excuse my French, but that's [censored]ed up son. Banning all guns will result in two things: A lot of [censored] off Americans, and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones? Dumb logic.

the TRUTH is that if ALL the gunmen involved had NO access to guns......these tragedies would be less devastating.....!

Strange I I don't rate any school shootings as any more or less devastating than the destruction of the World Trade Center, and those terrorists had box cutters for God's sake. A gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It is incapable of being good, or evil, and it only does what it is made to do. The same can be said for rocks, knives, forks, spoons, bats, irons, golf-clubs, nail guns, hammers, and all the other tools that people have managed to kill each other with. You simply cannot address the problem of violence by banning a tool, people will just find another one.

Guns are weapons.....specifically designed for killing....there is simply no good reason to own one.....!

Again wrong. I have many good reasons to own one, and many more reasons to own multiple firearms. Hell the only one I need is this: It's my RIGHT, as a citizen of the United States of America. But it also lets me shoot sporting clays, go hunting, shoot bench rest targets, practice shooting at 500 yards, shoot trap, work long and hard at perfecting the ultimate handload for each gun.

And here's something else to try on for size: If everyone in that college building had been a responsible, gun carrying citizen, how many people other than the gunman would have died?

[Steve G]

well articulated capt cope...but i'll use my right to disagree with you. it is your right to own a gun or in your case a small arsenal, but face it guns are designed with only one purpose...to kill. i happen to work for the department of defense so i sort of know the mindset...our weapons are made under the guise of protection...but in reality they are designed to efficiently dispose of the enemy while not creating collateral damage. funny how the army makes it sound so humane....it's still killing, the bullets we contract are for killing, the guns we design are for killing....if they don't do that then we failed in our mission and soldiers die as a result of our failure....see how it can be just so simple....when it's twisted for a rally around the flag purpose. fact is i do what i do because it pays well and provides for my family....i try to look beyond my moral and personal views of firearms, call me a hipocrite.

but i pride myself on never having shot a gun let alone killed a living thing. most gun owners i know have killed something....kind of like having that new saw and you just can't wait to see how well it cuts

[Guest avitt]

And here's something else to try on for size: If everyone in that college building had been a responsible, gun carrying citizen, how many people other than the gunman would have died?

Wow...and here I am thinking that if every college student carried a gun, we'd be having tragedies every day...

[ratchpot]

And here's something else to try on for size: If everyone in that college building had been a responsible, gun carrying citizen, how many people other than the gunman would have died?

I don't think responsible, gun carrying citizens, would take guns into a school, so I would say that exactly the same number of people would have died.

[capt_cope]

Thanks for the compliment, though I'll state that you must know either fewer or a different breed of gun owner than the ones I know. Granted I hunt, so I have killed living things, but I know many MANY gun owners through various sporting events who have never, and will never shoot a living thing unless it is a direct threat to their (or their family/friends') wellbeing. Perhaps you view personal firearms as nothing more than tools for killing, but I can say that only two of my guns have ever been used in that capacity, yet I still value my others just as much. What is a hammer incapable of driving nails worth? Or glue that can't bond? If firearms were tools to kill there would be no reason for people who don't kill to own them. But I know, for a fact, that many gun owners do not, and will not kill anything. I think the perception of guns as weapons needs to be changed. While they are capable, so are bricks, yet those are perceived most often to be building material.

I think you're looking past my actual statement, Here's what I wrote: "If everyone in that college building had been a responsible, gun carrying citizen, how many people other than the gunman would have died?" There is a big difference between a college kid with a gun and a responsible gun carrying citizen. I have met plenty of the latter, and only a handful of the former. I firmly believe that no one should be allowed to own firearms without proper education, and I wish courses like hunters safety were mandatory, even for non-gun owners. Firearms are a facet of life here in the US, and treated without respect or caution, they are dangerous.

[capt_cope]

I don't think responsible, gun carrying citizens, would take guns into a school, so I would say that exactly the same number of people would have died.

Were it legal... I think most would.

[sam1174]

I have a concealed weapons permit and I carry a handgun almost everywhere I go. I had to go through rigorous training to get my permit, and I had to pass a background check. But as a law abiding citizen I am still not allowed to carry my weapon into a bank, or a school, or many other places. There are guns in America. That fact is not going to change. If guns were banned, as a law abiding citizen, I would turn in my weapons. But don't believe for a minute that the criminals that are already in posession of guns would turn in theirs. The public at large would be at the mercy of the armed criminals.

In Iraq, we should arm the populace. Instead of taking away weapons every time we find them, we should mass produce handguns and give them to every adult citizen in Iraq. The good guys outnumber the bad guys. We need to allow them the ability to defend themselves.

[Logan]

Its a fact of life that sometimes the most well adjusted people, or the less so, get angry with someone, or life in general and got nuts.. the difference is that when you go nuts with your fists or even other weapons you might leave some people brused or hurt, when you go nuts with a gun people die.

Those who suggest that more guns is any answer forget that basic human emotions means that sometime people do stupid things they later regret. With guns in the equation that often means someone ends up dead. If guns arn't present the end result is usually hurt feelings, sometime worse, but its very tough to kill 32 people without a firearm.

I like guns.. I enjoy shooting them but I am very very glad to live in a country where no body, not even the police carry guns on public and I am very unlikely to ever see a dispute escalate into carnage.

[Craytonic]

Wow. I was floored while reading a thread about the tragedy at VT, but was even more astounded by these words posted by TTK:

"This freedom to bear arms needs to be challenged in the 21st century......we need to move towards a society where it is unaccpetable that the average citizen has access to weapons......assault rifles.....multiple guns ownership......etc etc.......there is simply no need for it....as demonstarted in many other countries worldwide........but this position will be disputed by Yanks.....and supported by Americans.........there is a significant difference......!

I was embroiled in a discussion with Fordzilla on the old RWG about gun ownership....his position was that he needed a gun to provide protection against armed burglars.......the truth is that any armed burglar is not likely to be a registered gun owner......but has more than likely stolen the gun from a registered gun owner......who ...if they hadn't had the gun in the first place.....would lead to the lack of need on Fordzilla's part to own a gun in teh second place....EVERY country in the world suffers from burglary.....involving simple theft or indeed violence against the homeowner.......howver because of the lack of access to a firearm.....the results are usually much different.........I keep a baseball bat as a deterrent to any possible intruder who is highly likely to be armed with a knife rather a gun.....!

The easy acquisiton pf guns.....allied to a media which perpetuates violence on TV / film and every applicable medium.....numbs most Americans to what is happening to it's society....!

I don't want to go thru' all the [censored] that I've seen in similar posts before......all I'll say is that I watch the media discussing what steps can be taken.....all the apologists are spouting off at the mouth about knee jerk reaction towards gun control....others are asking...'how can we determine what the lone gunman had going thru' his head'......they want to examine the psychology of the murderer......NONE of that will save the next massacre victims.........the TRUTH is that if ALL the gunmen involved had NO access to guns......these tragedies would be less devastating.....!

Guns are weapons.....specifically designed for killing....there is simply no good reason to own one.....!"

And as much as I hate to get angry at a forum memer, I just can't imagine what the [censored] is wrong with that guy's mind. I'll preface my comments with the fact that I am biased, very much so. I'm a life member of the NRA, I own many firearms, pistols, rifles, shotguns, and even "Assault weapons" if you want to call my FAL that. I love to shoot, it's a skill and hobby, just as modding watches is. I also love to hunt, never got into the deer hunting scene, but I love grouse and pheasant hunting, and am really taking to coyote hunting (around here those damn animals are smarter than most people I know.)

That said.

If Neil's current time is correct on the forums he clearly isn't in the US, and (in my opinion) has absolutely no basis for either judging American society, or deciding which of MY rights should be null. But be that as it may I'll address his points.

This freedom to bear arms needs to be challenged in the 21st century......we need to move towards a society where it is unaccpetable that the average citizen has access to weapons......assault rifles.....multiple guns ownership......etc etc.......there is simply no need for it....as demonstarted in many other countries worldwide........but this position will be disputed by Yanks.....and supported by Americans.........there is a significant difference......!

First off, how do you define need? Do you need a car? Cars contribute both directly and indirectly the destruction of our environment. Lots of people have them though, and lots of people have multiple cars. I don't need a gun to survive, but I do need guns to continue to enjoy a quality of life that I have been enjoying. Who are you to argue that my quality of life should be lessened? You bring up other countries as "proof" that no one needs guns. Funny, the last time I looked at the statistics crime, murders, and even *gasp* gun violence INCREASED after firearms were banned or restricted. (UK... Australia...) But we all know that those stats are twisted depending on the author's bias, so it's a toss up. You certianly don't have any more proof than I on that count.

The easy acquisiton pf guns.....allied to a media which perpetuates violence on TV / film and every applicable medium.....numbs most Americans to what is happening to it's society....!

Strange... I'm not numb to what is happening to our society. I see it every day I drive to work. Our society, based on strong religious convictions, is crumbling at our feet. Now I'm not saying that one religion is right, and all others are wrong, what I am saying is this: Most religions I am aware of seem to offer sets of guidelines for their followers. Usually some bit about "do unto others" is included in there. As more and more of our societies members become degenerates, so progresses our society. No longer is the majority concerned with the well being of their neighbors, but rather what they can steal from their neighbors. And this applies to both corrupt executives in large companies, continually shipping more and more jobs over to the east just to save a buck, and to your most basic of burglars. Both are raping our society for their own gain. If you really did your research on my society, you'd realize that doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns put together. Yet you tell me that I shouldn't have the right to own guns, because some degenerate somewhere might kill people with a gun? Excuse my French, but that's [censored]ed up son. Banning all guns will result in two things: A lot of [censored] off Americans, and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones? Dumb logic.

the TRUTH is that if ALL the gunmen involved had NO access to guns......these tragedies would be less devastating.....!

Strange I I don't rate any school shootings as any more or less devastating than the destruction of the World Trade Center, and those terrorists had box cutters for God's sake. A gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It is incapable of being good, or evil, and it only does what it is made to do. The same can be said for rocks, knives, forks, spoons, bats, irons, golf-clubs, nail guns, hammers, and all the other tools that people have managed to kill each other with. You simply cannot address the problem of violence by banning a tool, people will just find another one.

Guns are weapons.....specifically designed for killing....there is simply no good reason to own one.....!

Again wrong. I have many good reasons to own one, and many more reasons to own multiple firearms. Hell the only one I need is this: It's my RIGHT, as a citizen of the United States of America. But it also lets me shoot sporting clays, go hunting, shoot bench rest targets, practice shooting at 500 yards, shoot trap, work long and hard at perfecting the ultimate handload for each gun.

And here's something else to try on for size: If everyone in that college building had been a responsible, gun carrying citizen, how many people other than the gunman would have died?

Very well put.

My life was literally saved when I was a very young child by my father's sharp aim with a pistol on a rattlesnake that was about to bite me. My grandmother used a shotgun to stop a burglar in his tracks and was able to contact the police after he broke into her house and threatened her. I can't help but agree.

[capt_cope]

Its a fact of life that sometimes the most well adjusted people, or the less so, get angry with someone, or life in general and got nuts.. the difference is that when you go nuts with your fists or even other weapons you might leave some people brused or hurt, when you go nuts with a gun people die.

Those who suggest that more guns is any answer forget that basic human emotions means that sometime people do stupid things they later regret. With guns in the equation that often means someone ends up dead. If guns arn't present the end result is usually hurt feelings, sometime worse, but its very tough to kill 32 people without a firearm.

I like guns.. I enjoy shooting them but I am very very glad to live in a country where no body, not even the police carry guns on public and I am very unlikely to ever see a dispute escalate into carnage.

The fact of the matter is that people who succumb to "basic human emotions" and do "stupid things" have no business carrying or owning firearms. Stupidity and guns don't mix. I do believe that with proper education and training most people would be able to handle the responsibility.

And as to disputes escalating into carnage... I could pull thousands if not hundreds of thousands of disputes that ended in death and comas with absolutely no firearms and no knives involved. One in particular sticks out to me, as it happened in my city: a man was beaten into a coma by a group of kids after honking his horn at them to vacate the middle of the road. He died. Their weapons? Tree limbs, rakes, and shovel handles. Here's a link: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-1...aukee-mob_x.htm

The greatest weapon anyone can possess is their mind. And the most dangerous people are the ones who don't use their minds or their self control. I know a man that lost his self control, he's now a felon. He got into a fight with a man, knocked him down, and pried out a car battery to bash the other man's head in.

THE TOOL ISN'T THE CAUSE.

Oh and I wouldn't feel safer because my local police can't carry firearms, statistics show the criminals still carry theirs. Here are some statistics about gun violence in the UK:

"England and Wales

Both Conservative and Labour governments have introduced restrictive firearms laws over the past 20 years; all handguns were banned in 1997.

Yet in the 1990s alone, the homicide rate jumped 50 percent, going from 10 per million in 1990 to 15 per million in 2000. While not yet as high as the US, in 2002 gun crime in England and Wales increased by 35 percent. This is the fourth consecutive year that gun crime has increased."

So much for no one being able to carry guns eh?

[Tim]

fact is i do what i do because it pays well and provides for my family....i try to look beyond my moral and personal views of firearms, call me a hipocrite.

Hypocrite!

But seriously, I don't think anyone believes there is a moral dilemma involved in working for the establishment that exists for the defense of a nation. The only thing that I am conflicted about is the Eisenhower cited military-industrial industry. When there is a profit involved in devising ways to more efficiently kill people, nothing good can result.

but i pride myself on never having shot a gun let alone killed a living thing. most gun owners i know have killed something....kind of like having that new saw and you just can't wait to see how well it cuts

Liar, I saw you step on that ant last summer.

-T

[cornerstone]

I think never the twain shall meet on this subject.

My life was literally saved when I was a very young child by my father's sharp aim with a pistol on a rattlesnake that was about to bite me.

That sounds like an incredibly dangerous way to deal with a snake.

The fact of the matter is that people who succumb to "basic human emotions" and do "stupid things" have no business carrying or owning firearms.

That's everyone isn't it?

Yet in the 1990s alone, the homicide rate jumped 50 percent, going from 10 per million in 1990 to 15 per million in 2000.

Quote comes from a conservative think-tank, but nevertheless - the equivalent US rate according the FBI is 55 per million.

[Guest TTK]

Normally I wouldn’t dignify a post such as yours with a response but your self serving selfish egoistic misanthropic attitude compels me to.

We in the UK had a similar tragedy........our Government didn't shilly shally.......none of this divisive ...left wing liberal [censored] or right wing republican [censored].......they just simply banned them.......I feel confident that NEVER again in the UK ...will we see a massacre of innocents carried out by a LEGALLY owned firearm........we can't stamp out crimes carried out with firearms......but these crimes are carried out by criminals......armed with guns that are manufactured in your country and others who have an IMC......the vast majority of gun crimes in the UK now are carried out by young black men seeking to emulate the 'nigga' culture that YOUR country has exported worldwide......allied to the tacit acceptance of violence for the sake of violence that pervades your society…......so don't preach to me about YOUR culture........everybody in the rest of the world knows about American culture.....the devotion to capitalism.....at the expense of everything else.....dignity ...self respect......you only have to look at American society today to realise how rotten it is......having moved from it's greatest period ...the 1950's......when everything was Mom and apple pie......thru' the 1960's....which was when the rot set in....after Kennedy's assassination......to where it is today…..!

Let's take your anger and dissect it.

And as much as I hate to get angry at a forum member, I just can't imagine what the [censored] is wrong with that guy's mind.

There's bugger all wrong with my mind.......it's YOUR mindset that's [censored]ed up......!

I'll preface my comments with the fact that I am biased, very much so. I'm a life member of the NRA, I own many firearms, pistols, rifles, shotguns, and even "Assault weapons"

There's the proof that YOUR mind is [censored]ed up.....what possible NEED ...other than to satisfy your macho Rambo tendencies do you have for ANY weapon.......particularly 'Assault weapons"

I love to shoot, it's a skill and hobby, just as modding watches is. I also love to hunt, never got into the deer hunting scene, but I love grouse and pheasant hunting, and am really taking to coyote hunting (around here those damn animals are smarter than most people I know.)

So take up archery...that's what I did........when the British government banned my guns.......it's a skill and a hobby...that requires the same skills......( more challenging than shooting).....or take up scale model building..that's a skilful hobby.....but NO......that wouldn't allow you to fantasise about the amount of 'power" you have....as for hunting......you can't put a serious argument forward in regard to it.......you either ENJOY killing animals or you don't.......how many flies wings did you pull off as a kid.....!

First off, how do you define need? Do you need a car? Cars contribute both directly and indirectly the destruction of our environment. Lots of people have them though, and lots of people have multiple cars

I define need by an individuals requirement for a particular thing that helps in his daily life.....the need for a refrigerator to keep his milk cold......the need for toothpaste to keep his teeth in good condition....the need for a car to help him avoid going out into the wilderness with a big gun for his pork chops.....!

Cars are designed to be a convenience tool......a means of transport....are they bad.....not necessarily.....we're only beginning to learn about consequences of ownership of cars.....and at least manufacturers and governments are trying to do something about it......cars LIKE guns kill people.....the same as baseball bats......tyre irons etc etc......but cars....UNLIKE guns were never DESIGNED to kill people.......GUNS were and are....!

I don't need a gun to survive, but I do need guns to continue to enjoy a quality of life that I have been enjoying.

Well, blow me......we wouldn't to do anything to interfere with the quality of YOUR life.......would we.....despite YOUR statement that you don't NEED a gun to survive......but hey you enjoy it.....so to hell with all the individuals who pay for your enjoyment....all the students at VA / Columbine / Lancaster et al....who paid with their lives.....the promise from ALL of them gone.....why.....BECAUSE YOU NEED TO ENJOY YOUR GUNS....and God help anybody who wants to interfere with your enjoyment.....!

The Platte Canyon High School shooting was an incident that occurred at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colorado on September 27, 2006, in which Duane Roger Morrison, a 53-year-old man, entered the school building, reportedly saying that he had a bomb. He was initially reported as a bearded 35-year-old man with a camouflage backpack and wearing a dark hooded sweatshirt who had taken six female students as hostages and released four of them while keeping the other two. One of the remaining hostages was shot, wounded critically and taken away by a helicopter. The other was not wounded. Paramedics at the scene confirmed that Morrison shot and killed himself. The hostage who was wounded, Emily Keyes, was pronounced dead at 4:32 p.m. MDT (23:32 UTC) at Saint Anthony's Hospital in Denver, Colorado after undergoing emergency surgery.

Weston High School Shooting

On Friday September 29, 2006 around 8 am EST, a student named Eric Hainstock, 15, walked into Weston High School with 2 loaded guns. When school officials took away the first gun, Eric Hainstock pulled out his other gun. Principal John Klang, along with other staff and students, attempted to subdue the student. John Klang was shot 3 times. Klang, even though shot, managed to wrestle the student down and swept the gun away. He was shot in the head, chest, and leg. John Klang died the next day at the age of 49. As for the student Eric Hainstock, he has been charged with the murder of his former principal.

Amish School Shooting

The Amish school shooting occurred on October 2, 2006 when a gunman killed multiple students in Wolf Rock School, a one-room Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Police report that the gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, a 32-year-old milk truck driver who lived nearby, was killed during a hostage stand off in the one room schoolhouse. Police had to break in through the windows when shots were heard. The gunman apparently killed himself. Police Officials say that all victims are in critical condition. Reports have stated that the girls were shot execution style in the head with their hands and feet tied. Roberts apparently spoke to his wife while inside the school via cell phone and may have explained his motivations for the act, which are still unclear. Police have stated that it appeared to have been a revenge killing for an incident that occurred two decades before.

The Columbine High School massacre occurred on Tuesday, April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School in unincorporated Jefferson County, Colorado, near Denver and Littleton. Two teenage students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, carried out a shooting rampage, killing twelve students and a teacher, as well as wounding twenty-four others, before committing suicide. It is the third-deadliest school shooting in United States history, after the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre and the 1966 University of Texas massacre.

I'll body swerve the religious aspect......we all know that Yanks are [censored]ed up in the head about religion.......so I'll concentrate on the matter at hand....!

If you really did your research on my society, you'd realize that doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns put together. Yet you tell me that I shouldn't have the right to own guns, because some degenerate somewhere might kill people with a gun? Excuse my French, but that's [censored]ed up son. Banning all guns will result in two things: A lot of [censored] off Americans, and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones?

I don't need to do any research....it's in my face every time we see another massacre....( and I'm not including the Governments massacres of it's population....such as Ohio ...Jackson State ....and the ORIGINAL Columbine massacre )....so much for an armed population dealing wit 'tyrannical' Governments....as for Doctors....we're all well aware that many people die at the hands of doctors and dentists.....but they don't set out to kill people....that's a consequence of incompetence.....!

As for the degenerate who might kill people.....how do we know that YOU may not be that degenerate....how long until you 'snap'.....take your FAL...and decide to shoot up the town......couldn't happen....no....really......of course it couldn't....if you didn't have a FAL.....!

[censored] off Americans......we've seen what '[censored] off Americans' can do......witness Iraq.....witness Vietnam.....witness South America.....Iran Contra scandals....Kennedy shootings.....we've seen it all....!

and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones?

Criminals will always look for an edge in any situation....as you rightly point out.....they can't buy a gun legally...so what they do is boost YOUR legally held guns......all those LEGALLY held guns are responsible for all the drive by shootings.....home entries.....with LEGALLY held guns......now I know I'm asking a lot to ask you to use your imagination.....but if there were NO legally held guns.....then there wouldn't be any ILLEGALLY held guns.....!

Of course there would still be guns in circulation.....but that's what the authorities are for.....to remove these from society......just as they have made it socially unacceptable to drink and drive.....prior to current laws and attitudes.....it was deemed OK to go out and have a few beers.....and then drive home.....heck...it was a man's RIGHT at the end of a hard working week to enjoy himself with a good drink......socially acceptable......just as you feel it's SOCIALLY acceptable that you can have a small arsenal at home......heck you never know when you might want to shoot up the town and ENJOY yourself....!

Strange I I don't rate any school shootings as any more or less devastating than the destruction of the World Trade Center, and those terrorists had box cutters for God's sake. A gun is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It is incapable of being good, or evil, and it only does what it is made to do. The same can be said for rocks, knives, forks, spoons, bats, irons, golf-clubs, nail guns, hammers, and all the other tools that people have managed to kill each other with. You simply cannot address the problem of violence by banning a tool, people will just find another one.

Of course you don't rate it as any more or less devastating......why.....you're 21.....and all your brain cells haven't developed yet......!

A for the terrorists......there is no relevance with that analogy.....these acts were carried out not by individuals but by groups.....what we're discussing here is actions by individuals armed by a society that sees no wrong in putting a Weapon of Mass Destruction....in the hands of individuals who cannot be relied upon to be responsible......!

All of these massacres were not carried out by career criminals......but by individuals who had never come to the attention of the authorities.....no criminal record.......ALL the drive by shootings are carried out by ILLEGALLY held weapons stolen from people who held them LEGALLY.!

As for a gun being a 'tool'.....what purpose can this tool be used for.....other than killing........let's look at your argument......!

1. Can it be used as a wrench to turn the wheel nuts when you have a flat......no......not much of a [censored]ing tool then....eh...!

2.. Can it be used to take out a spark plug.....no......not much use there either......eh

3. Can it be used to help resuscitate someone on the way to A&E.......no....but it can be used to send someone there.....!

The same can be said for rocks, knives, forks, spoons, bats, irons, golf-clubs, nail guns, hammers, and all the other tools that people have managed to kill each other with. You simply cannot address the problem of violence by banning a tool, people will just find another one

People don't need 'tools' to kill each other.....they have used their bare hands since time immemorial.....however the fact remains and is inescapable......NONE of the above were designed to kill people.....NONE of them can be described as a Weapon of Mass Destruction......and if you don't think the deaths of 32 INNOCENT kids and those who seek to improve society by imparting their knowledge to them....wasn't carried out by someone who had ACCESS to Weapons of Mass Destruction......then you're the tool......!

I can hardly imagine a scenario where everyone was armed.......the thought horrifies me that a proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction were placed in the hands of untrained civilians....I can only imagine a higher body count....!

Your arguments are facile and puerile......your stance is self serving and is not conducive to the betterment of society......however YOU are enjoying yourself..!

On a final note......you've been here a month.....I have socks that are older ( and wiser ) than you.......and you have no right using my name......my board identity is TTK......make sure it remains that way....!

Edited April 18, 2007 by TTK

[Tim]

In Iraq, we should arm the populace. Instead of taking away weapons every time we find them, we should mass produce handguns and give them to every adult citizen in Iraq. The good guys outnumber the bad guys. We need to allow them the ability to defend themselves.

Oh wow, you're crazy. Everyone in Iraq today has guns. Guns, munitions, and RPGs; the place is swimming in armament. Every weapon that was in the Iraqi armed forces is now in the hands of the general populace. Taking them away is an ineffectual policy simply because there ARE so many weapons. You can go to the local town bazaar and buy a Kalashnikov with $500 no questions asked.

-T

[Blindman]

As the tragedy dominates the airwaves, both factions of gun control rally the zealots of their cause, as the media vultures descend to feed off the emotions of anyone to be found at the scene. Who is to blame; the gun or the person holding it? I contend more fault lies with the media than the gun. They play each tragedy immortalizing the person, the people responsible, or the cause. Gun, bomb, airplane, doesn't matter, as long as it makes headline news. In this case, a social terrorist, little difference from a political terrorist. Would gun control had made a difference or could an alternate means been found? A bomb maybe? The story that this doesn

[capt_cope]

That's everyone isn't it?

Not really. I have never raised anything but my voice at someone in anger. If you can't control your most basic of emotions such as anger or lust you have no business walking about on the streets. And by succumb I mean act upon. Feeling emotion is something that no one can control, but what everyone CAN control is the manner in which we act upon these emotions. When someone cuts me off in trafic I get [censored]. I might utter some curses in their direction, or if I'm really mad honk. I don't run them off the road and drive over their bodies. I'm sure the homicide statistics are WAY higher in the US than in most countries, hell, road-rage is a problem. What the [censored] is road rage but a bunch of people so un-able to control themselves that they try to kill people because they got cut off or were stuck behind someone moving too slow. You don't have to convince me I'm surrounded by cretins on a daily basis, I need only open the newspaper to figure that one out.

And as for the conservative think tank bit... none of the liberal sites offered any statistics I could find quickly. I did some more searching but all the liberal sites quoted horridly biased surveys and failed to produce any real numbers. With a political subject like guns and gun violence it is very tough to find any truly accurate sources, but one fact can be gleaned: gun violence DID increase after 1997 in the UK. How much is debatable based on who's data you're using.

This site, while clearly biased in favor of firearms has hard statistics from official sources. Tough to argue with that.

http://www.ctsportsmen.com/news/gun_sales_...me_and_acci.htm

[Guest TTK]

Statistics......damned statistics.......and lies.......NO statistic will ever replace the loss of these kids......that's the problem with society.....thay want analyse......they don't want to act.....!

[Tim]

Strange... I'm not numb to what is happening to our society. I see it every day I drive to work. Our society, based on strong religious convictions, is crumbling at our feet. Now I'm not saying that one religion is right, and all others are wrong, what I am saying is this: Most religions I am aware of seem to offer sets of guidelines for their followers. Usually some bit about "do unto others" is included in there. As more and more of our societies members become degenerates, so progresses our society. No longer is the majority concerned with the well being of their neighbors, but rather what they can steal from their neighbors. And this applies to both corrupt executives in large companies, continually shipping more and more jobs over to the east just to save a buck, and to your most basic of burglars. Both are raping our society for their own gain. If you really did your research on my society, you'd realize that doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns put together. Yet you tell me that I shouldn't have the right to own guns, because some degenerate somewhere might kill people with a gun? Excuse my French, but that's [censored]ed up son. Banning all guns will result in two things: A lot of [censored] off Americans, and a lot of criminals who still have their un-registered guns. Your average criminal can't buy a gun legally anyways (at least if he's committed a felony or domestic abuse) and now the answer to illegal guns is to remove all legal ones? Dumb logic.

Everyone else is going to be responding to many of the arguments specifically dealing with guns. I saw this bit though and had to say something. What exactly do you consider a degenerate? I see broad swaths of degenerates whenever I drive through the suburbs and small towns in America. I have a feeling you see the exact opposite--on many issues.

-T

[Craytonic]

That sounds like an incredibly dangerous way to deal with a snake.

I had wondered off, my father saw snake and the danger, no time to run to get me, but time to shoot the snake with little threat to me. What do you suggest, a father let his son get bitten? I was 6 or 8 at the time; I really doubt I would have survived the bite given our remote location.

Not to be an ass, but I fail to see a better alternative?

Not to get all "country" but guns are generally a great way to kill a rattlesnake. Much [censored]ing safer than getting within striking distance.

[capt_cope]

If you really wanted a world of bliss for our children, outlaw religion;

it's killed more people than guns - each side is still claiming it's right.

No. Individuals and groups too cowardly to take responsibility for their own actions pin their actions on religion. It is a facade. If you look even half-heartedly at most religions like Christianity you'll find no religious reason behind actions like the crusades. Someone please show me the passage in the Koran where it states that all Jews must die, and any Christians or Americans you capture should be beheaded on video. These are the actions of sick individuals and groups, not of religions, and to think otherwise is foolish. I've read the Bible and nowhere does it even HINT that abortion clinics should be bombed.

[Craytonic]

Don Imus is that you?!?!?!?

I read on the internet that insensitive, disparaging, racist comments about black people are step one in ending violence and hatred. Never can trust that internet though, crazy thing.

[Guest TTK]

Go educate yourself.....!

ISLAM UNDRESSED

[Craytonic]

I prefer Isam Unveiled; the print is easier on my eyes.

[capt_cope]

Everyone else is going to be responding to many of the arguments specifically dealing with guns. I saw this bit though and had to say something. What exactly do you consider a degenerate? I see broad swaths of degenerates whenever I drive through the suburbs and small towns in America. I have a feeling you see the exact opposite--on many issues.

-T

I live in a suburb, and I see degenerates every day. I read about them in the news. A degenerate (in my opinion) is someone who has no desire to take control of their life, and refuses to be responsible for their actions. From abusive husbands and drug addicted, spoiled teenagers in ritzy suburbs, to corrupt executives, and common criminals and rapists. I don't think you can limit degeneracy to a specific demographic.

From your tone I assume you thought I was making a racist comment. Far from it. I've seen enough drug dealing white kids living in their parents $250,00 houses and enough genuinely good men and women that were white, black, asian, hispanic, and middle eastern, living in environments ranging from little more than a broken down shanty of a house to a veritable mansion, sitting on 300 acres, to know that race and creed are the least of the things that make a man.

And in reality that's what it all comes down to, beyond just guns, the fact that people are willing to lie, cheat, and steal their way through life, regardless of their actual crimes, at the base of it I think what it all comes down to is this: Responsibility. No one wants to take it anymore, and we are seeing the effects. What's the resounding theme from people being arrested on COPS? I didn't do it, it's not my fault.

And now society is starting to agree with them, "they can't help it". "He was predispositioned to domestic violence," "he grew up in a rough neighborhood," "he started hanging out with the wrong crowd." [censored]. He chose to beat his wife, He chose to kill someone, he chose to sell drugs. That's the fact, every day we are faced with tough decisions, and the choices we make determines who we are. It doesn't matter how many excuses get thrown in the way, the truth is, behind it all there was a choice, and degenerates continue to make the wrong ones, knowing full well the outcome, but refusing to step up and accept it. How can you change something that you won't even admit is wrong?

[cornerstone]

Not really. I have never raised anything but my voice at someone in anger. If you can't control your most basic of emotions such as anger or lust you have no business walking about on the streets. And by succumb I mean act upon.

Fair enough - succumb was the key word in what you were saying, I was looking at the phrases in the context that Logan had used them. A perfectly normal person can have a moment where they don't act rationally.

I'm sure the homicide statistics are WAY higher in the US than in most countries...I'm surrounded by cretins on a daily basis, I need only open the newspaper to figure that one out.

This is perhaps where we really differ. I think folk are the same everywhere, just as many cretins here as there. So why is the murder rate so much higher? Not to mention accidental, non-criminal shootings.

And as for the conservative think tank bit... none of the liberal sites offered any statistics I could find quickly.

I only mentioned the source to question their conclusion from the statistics, not the actual figures. There was a rise, but there are a range of different factors involved - the cause and effect didn't necessarily follow from the statistics. House prices also rose during that time, if you see what I mean.

I should add that I don't think gun control in the US is feasible or will ever happen. And I know plenty of people enjoy sport shooting.

I had wondered off, my father saw snake and the danger, no time to run to get me, but time to shoot the snake with little threat to me. What do you suggest, a father let his son get bitten? I was 6 or 8 at the time; I really doubt I would have survived the bite given our remote location.

Not to be an ass, but I fail to see a better alternative?

Not to get all "country" but guns are generally a great way to kill a rattlesnake. Much fucking safer than getting within striking distance.

Don't get me wrong, whether it was the best idea or the worst idea, it worked - and put in a moment of extreme duress who knows what goes through your mind to protect your child. If the scenario played out a hundred times though, you could argue that you end up getting hurt by the gun as many times as by the snake. It's not an ideal way of dealing with a snake - it's something people in Australia deal with a lot.

It raises a fair point on-topic though - and those are the differing gun needs of the country and the city. Could different gun licensing not address that?