RWG Technical Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 ZIGGY FTW!!!!111!! I am not sure what this means...good or bad... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14060 or 16610? Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I don't usually take sides in an argument, but this one is just plain crazy. When I do an overhaul, I take everything apart down to the last screw. The only thing I usually leave intact is the balance, which I dip in tetrachloroethylene. But the balance cap jewels still come off, get dipped, and reassembled properly with the correct oil. Everything else HAS TO COME APART. I don't know how you would clean it properly otherwise. If you "dip" the movement without disassembling it, the cleaning fluid will be held inside the critical bearings by capillary action, and no amount of oiling is going to get it out of there. In fact, it will dilute any oil applied leading to early bearing failure. This would be like trying to wash your feet and apply lotion to them while they're still in socks and shoes. You can do it, but it ain't gonna be pretty... As for running a business like this for generations, that's easy. The people coming back don't know the difference. They aren't the ones examining the barrel walls with a 10x loupe and finding gouges and scoring. They aren't the ones finding track wear on the movement because of the failed rotor bearings. So they could care less. These same people probably take their car to Jiffy Lube and pay for services that aren't being performed - would they know the difference if their oil wasn't changed? Again it all boils down to quality vs. low price. The two don't mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 This has been a very fascinating read. I have listened to so many presentations by wannabe's, nitwits, and clever conmen, on one subject and another over the years, that I am realy enjoying an exchange by two very knowledgeable people, both making articulate arguments for their point of view. Business is properly all about maximizing worth for value, and those businesses that can demonstrate the best bang for the buck are the companies I would buy stock in. I don't know watches, but I do know machine shops and engines - there is nothing that our nation's largest and most successful manufacturers of "reman" engines do that could not be done better, but their mission is to do both a good job, and the best job that can be done at a competitive price. On the other hand, if I'm going to have one of my watches serviced, my precious MBWs go to Ziggy. I guess he has worked on about a dozen for me at this point, and I love the work that anal, meticulous, Rob turns out. I do not suggest that there is any reason to believe that Tech could not do what Ziggy does as well, or perhaps even better. That's not an issue anyone seems to be discussing, and I suppose anything's possible. As I read this, it looks to me like Tech isn't suggesting that he competes with Ziggy any more than Jasper or Recon competes with boutique performance shops who balance and blue print everything right down to the oil pump case clearance. Assembly lines vs individualized craftsmen -- comparing them is to compare apples and oranges. To Rob, I would say that you get my business because I like what you're selling and I am willing to pay for it - I personally wouldn't give a rat's patootie if someone could prove to me that the end result is precisely the same. If this lovely DRSD I am wearing suddenly goes "tic," but no "toc," I'll be sending it to you. it's worth money to me to know that you are going to personally, and individually inspect each and every piece as opposed to the more assembly line approach that might be offered elsewhere. On the other hand, assembly lines provide most of what consumer's consume for a reason. If I was in the business of selling "serviced" watches, I'd be having a hard look at what Tech advocates because most people are more interested in a balancing act - they want something that works at the cheapest possible price, and maximizing profit is the only thing any shareholder is concerned with. Mostly, I'm dealing with the Client from Hell this afternoon so I thought I'd take a break and this is the first post I have seen that I wanted to comment on! Cheers. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I was taught by my master watchsmith that all the parts must be stripped down - no exception. I do know that for the oscillator, you should reassemble it onto the mainplate for the safety of the hairspring, but everything else must go. once you start taking shortcuts here, then you start taking shortcuts there, and before you know it.....watchmaking won't be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I'll stick to the time and tested ways, and leave the shortcuts to others. I am sure Ubi would not have appreciated his El Primero being treated this way. Believe me... I certainly don't mind the fact that you have taken the time to thoroughly service and overhaul my El Primeros and VJ23! It's good peace of mind for me... Knowing that everything was cleaned and oiled properly, mainspring changed, etc., parts inspected for wear/damage and so forth... Is your way the right way? Well... For me, yes, it is. As we both know, the EP400/3019 is an odd creature, and there are some graphite lubricated points that shouldn't be cleaned (as per Zenith). So, the only way to properly do the job is to tear everything down... Replace the barrel/mainspring as recommended, and lubricate with the correct oils... So... For your expertise and knowledge, I am willing to pay more, and willing to wait a few days longer for completion. Knowing that my movements have been thoroughly gone over, inspected (and signed off with a clean bill of health) is worth the price of admission in my eyes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Just for the fun of this discussion, I am going to try the test, 2 ETA 2836-2 models, one taken apart, one together as suggested, in the bath, then disassemble and compare the assembled one to the taken apart one after they are dried and oiled... Should be interesting, stay tuned. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 What is the saying? Never enough time to do it right the first time, but apparently enough to go back and do it again a second time. Interested to see the results; I have had one The Zigmeister service and liked it. Another multi-step project on the way back from Flavor Flav that I will be contacting him about soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I am not sure what this means...good or bad... RG It means "Fro Teh Winz0rz" Or "For the win". It's a geek way of saying "You go, girlfriend". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 It means "Fro Teh Winz0rz" Or "For the win". It's a geek way of saying "You go, girlfriend". Cool thanks...so it is a good thing. I tried it out tonight, threw the whole movement in the tank and washed and rinsed it off, took a lot of pictures, and will post the results tomorrow if I have time, or if it's a slow day at work. I am always open to new things, and really look forward to the explination of how the movement is oiled without disassembling it, should be interesting. I used 2 spare 2836-2's for the test. Time for bed. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Time for bed. Old man... TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Old man... TT No - new Girl Freind , I said "bed" not "sleep"... Much better the second time around. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFlash Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 No - new Girl Freind , I said "bed" not "sleep"... Much better the second time around. RG All women are different. All wives are the same. Fro Teh Winz0rz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 No - new Girl Freind , I said "bed" not "sleep"... Much better the second time around. Ok... Dirty "Old" Man... TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRG Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 This debate aside, it sounds like the Technician will have much to offer. Hmmm, I have my doubts but let's see. Let's see what The Zigmeister finds with his test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJGladeRaider Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Ok... Dirty "Old" Man... TT I love this place! LOL Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I love this place! Is that smiley doing the other up the wrong 'un? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Dirty "Old" Man... TT LMAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 (edited) I noticed the sub text to the OP's post....said...! "from a part-time proshefunul watchMAKER"......not watch smith.....now whilst I appreciate the work of George Daniels / Kristian van der Klaauw / Martin Braun and various other 'watchMAKERS"........I surely don't think the epithet "proshefunul....or even professional.....should be applied to a 'part-time'...$25.00 .......swisher and dipper......I know who gets my vote.....! Edited May 3, 2007 by TTK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasigi Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Just saw this thread and the other one regarding what happened when The Zigmeister did as suggested. I know which method I'd prefer to be used on my watches and it sure ain't the 'swish and dip' one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 This is such a great informative read... I guess the cheap 28XX can be done the quick and dirty way... if they are not 100% who cares... and a new one will set you back only 50 eur (should not exceed the service costs). A vj72, 23 or 7750 is a different story. They are hard to find, expensive to replace and valuable... proper care is eminent... Well I would take the Zig way. Just my 2 cent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Going to sleep = dipping? Going to bed = stripping? Usil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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