.

[freddy333]

I think it is rare, in today's workplace, to have the luxury of being able to take the time to do a job well (as Ziggy does) as opposed to getting it done (as The Technician's shop does).

I had a relative who was a 4th generation master watchmaker and he was a stickler about doing things right and always giving the customer more than they expected or paid for. It was just the way business was done in those days. For instance, he would routinely clean or fix things (without charge) unrelated to the work the customer had brought the watch or clock into his shop for. I remember hearing him complain about having to compete with other shops that charged less than he did and for a lower quality of service. He could never understand why people were willing to make 2, 3 or 4 trips back to another shop to have the same problem corrected over and over again when he would have done the job right the first time, albeit for a larger up-front fee or with a longer wait time. And I think his inability to lower his standards or take short-cuts (along with the onslaught of digital watches that hit the market in the mid-70's) had alot to do with his early retirement.

I think, today, it is impossible to provide the level of service that Ziggy does in a full-time professional environment and remain competitive in the marketplace. My guess is that The Technician's procedure is probably typical of the type of work that is performed by many professional shops today. The cost to do everything the long way would be too high to be profitable in most cases. And it is the same for just about any other type of service-related business.

[Logan]

I think The Zigmeister is treating our replica movements like someone servicing the real thing would.. where as The Technician is treating them like the bottom of the line chinese mechanisms they realy are. The perfectionist in me favours The Zigmeister's methodology, but in a commercial setting no-one would pay the price required for a "proper" service on a $30 movement.

[Polynomial]

It would help to The Zigmeister's reputation that he himself does not get defensive in such posts (no need at all), and if he did not mention over and over again how busy and fully booked he is and that his bookings are handled by his "assistant", now how much of a hoby this sounds like, and where would such impression come from? I would like to see as much as discussions on servicing movments from as many members as possible. The Zigmeister was right about Joe before, but this one seems to know few things, why shut him up?

[Polynomial]

Hahaha - your link led me to "The webdirectory for gardening".

Nuff said.

Of course, gardening is essential in servicing the rep movements. Don't tell me you didn't know that.

[RWG Technical]

It would help to Ziggy's reputation that he himself does not get defensive in such posts (no need at all), and if he did not mention over and over again how busy and fully booked he is and that his bookings are handled by his "assistant", now how much of a hoby this sounds like, and where would such impression come from? I would like to see as much as discussions on servicing movments from as many members as possible. Ziggy was right about Joe before, but this one seems to know few things, why shut him up?

Help my "reputation", would imply that there is a problem with it in the first place...

I did not get defensive, I did exactly what was described and it did not work for me.

I asked The Technician to answer two questions, and they were ignored. If The Technician can explain the following, it would certainly add credibility to his method:

1. How do you clean the sides of the mainspring barrel walls and remove the old dried gummed up grease, when the spring is held tight up against it?

2. Show us a picture of the application of barrel grease with the mainspring in place, and tight up against the barrel wall.

Not sure where you saw me mention "over and over how busy and fully booked I am", it seems your making assumptions that are incorrect. Busy and fully booked can mean lots of things to lots of people. Some weeks "Fully booked" means that I dont' take in any watches at all? Why? Well because I travel for my work and have a day job, and two kids to take care of and a house to run. Other weeks, "Fully Booked" is one 1 watch booked into the shop (remember Panerailord). If your comparing my definition of Fully booked to "The Technician" who did over 300 watches in 6 months, your sadly mistaken sir.

As for my "assistant" and her doing the emails, again your making incorrect assumptions. I like to fix watches, she likes to take care of emails. I do enough coorespondance in my day job, and I appreciate that I can come home, and sit at the workbench and fix a watch and relax, and not have to answer emails. Again your confusing "Assistant" with something else, she enjoys the emails, I don't.

Seems as if your making wrong "impressions" and reading into my posts much more than there actually is. The fact that I book appointements, and have someone else do emails for me, and that I am "busy" only means that I am organized and only take in what I can do in my spare time.

I too would like to see more discussion about servicing, until my questions that I asked again above are answered, I have little faith in the swish and dip way of servicing watches. If you looked at my pictures, you decide if your mainspring can be cleaned and greased - while it's still installed into the barrel...

If you consider that I was right about Joe, please think back about all the crap that was dished my way everytime I tried to show the truth about that situation. Including the many members who were sending me their watches to fix after the "works package" disasters, the many emails and pm's that were sent to me complaining about broken promises, watches held hostage for months, hell even years, etc... Last week even the Admin of the board confirmed that he too, was getting the same messages from concerned members. I stood by my comments for months, and during that time I was crapped on by members like you, I finally gave up...months later the same problems surface, and the Admin of the forum confirms what I had been saying all along, what does that tell you?

I was crapped on by many members for speaking out when I did. I am speaking out again, but according to you "this one SEEMS to know a few things" and again, your crapping on me...now I know why you have been on my ignored and blocked list for a long time...

Let "The Technician" speak out all he wants, this is an open forum, he claims I am a fool, and an old man, so it seems that he can type. I really look forward to him showing a watch done his way, and I REALLY look forward to his showing me the mainspring clean and grease. All anyone is asking is for clarification of procedures that have been shown not to work. But then why believe me, go to TZ and post the "swish and dip" question over there, and get answers from those who really know...

RG

[Highflyingclive]

@The Zigmeister... I don't think that anyone here could deny the logic of your argument regarding the cleaning and greasing of the mainspring barrel... and your assertion that the only way to clean a movement properly is to do a complete strip and rebuild, just makes perfect sense.

You have demonstrated the difference between craftsmanship and commerce. Thank you for enlightening us. Again...

[Amplitude]

Hey I'm back. The Zigmeister is a good watchmaker, in case anybody got me wrong. His tutorials are good examples and great photography of how a service is done in ideal conditions with modest equipment. But he came off to me as too opinionated, and I know hwere he gets some of his strong opinions, because I read the same stuff.

we are authorized dealers of a couple of mid-level Swiss brands, and their reps come to inspect the shop every once in awhile to make sure we are up to standards. Sometimes the Swiss find our methods...not to Swiss standards. But we are high volume and also do jewelry, so the shop isn't a clean room. We can't insist on a $400 service on $450 Tissot, like the manufacturers would like. US residents will just throw the watch away. I'll post pics of a Breguet that got the The Zigmeister style old school treatment for your enjoyment in the next few days, but I'm afraid my pics are blurry and cell phone quality. Even so, just the the proper distance between the hands and dial are so close, it was a nervous nightmare to work on. Thinking "If I slip, I bought a Breguet dial" is a terrible stressor. I'll also see if I can get some up on the 2 fusees we just got in, my boss is making a few fusee chain links from scratch. Very interesting, and amazing skill involved. ($3800 US repairs!) Also a vintage IWC he is making a few saltwater damaged parts for.

I'm sorry if I came off arrogant or know-it-all, I didn't mean to, I was just posting some friendly tips while lubricated and I felt I got attacked full steam and took it badly. I don't reccomend the wheel train in method for all watches, just the ones that are dry or slightly gummy and fairly new. I'll also post pics of my first handmade pallet fork arbor if I can. And a good trick on pulling a bad one with using a lathe and installing a good one without tedious overmeasuring steps. It IS a real trick, and a valuable, time saving tip. I would never have thought of it myself (at least not right away) and it works amazingly. Also some tips for (fairly) modern ladies rolex movements and some microstella regulation tips. But I am NOT a good photographer or writer, and that is an understatment.

Also, every watchmaker has his own way of doing things, and many are insanely rigid about how things are done, even when there are better or faster (or even just other) ways. Some use 9010 for everything but the great wheel, fork jewels and mainspring and swear by it. And what do you know, it works! It is part of our personalities, I guess. We are strange creatures nowadays. I don't want to make an enemy of The Zigmeister because I respect his skills and the weird personality it takes to do this stuff for fun and profit. Also The Zigmeister, if you are reading this- if you knew what I did for my full-time job you'd be surprised too. I'm not a fry cook, unless you count LASERs as a fryer. I'm not trying to steal your business, I don't want any business-I'm too busy to take outside work and you seem to be doing just fine taking care of this forums needs. I'm offering an olive branch, please consider my previous insulting comments retracted.

Let's all have fun with watches, that's why we're here, right?

[Rolexman]

Nice to see you back Amplitude. I hope you and Zig will get along now and keep contributing to the forum!

[NRG]

I'm confused, you're now 'Amplitude' ...where you banned as 'The Technician'?

[Amplitude]

I'm confused, you're now 'Amplitude' ...where you banned as 'The Technician'?

No, I was Amplitude when I first setup an account, and I couldn't remember my password so Iset the Technician account up. I couldn't remember the password for the Technician account so I logged in as Amplitude because I was able to dig up the Amplitude password from my old files...I don't log in much.

[Amplitude]

Oh yeah, here's a good simple one for you replica freaks.

If you have a "red" sub, or a something of the sort that shares the same movt. type in the genuine, and you want really convincing accuracy, remove the calendar quickset wheel. (you can put it back anytime). Then youll ahve the authentic pleasure of having to advance the date by rolling the set over and over again to set the date, just like the real thing! If you want to go even further, file and polish (away) the notch for the quickset position on the keyless so you can't feel it anymore.. It'lll fool most anyone as long as you don't open the case to show them your Polex was made in Shitnerand

Almost forgotp- Great tip;, number 3 tweezers are the bee's knees. They're longer than twos, so you can more easily hold them properly (sort of like a pencil or chopsticks) as pointed as #5s, but feel "stronger", like twos.

The blued srew on the balance [censored] of some ladies Rolex movements is for adjusting endshake on the balance. Do not move it unless ypu *really* need to. Also, the microstellas are inside the balance wheel on these, so you pretty much have to pull the balance [censored] out to adjust it.

And remember it's "backwards" Use the Rolex microstella tool, or you will cause yourself major headaches if you try to do it any other way. Shoot for 6 to 10 seconds fast per day in 3 positions, crown down, dial up, and crown up. This makes for the max number of happy customers. IF you can get it better, great. But a little fast is always better than slow. And it usually results in 20 sec fast per week on the wrist. Also, when pulling the balance assy on these, be careful of the (overlapping! balance wheel stopping) hack lever. You can distort your hairspring very easily if you don't. And you willl HATE that. A balance complete is about $120 if you can't correct hairspring errors.

On ladies movements of any kind, use a cNNON PINION PULLING TOOL INSTEAD OF TWEEZERS, AND A STAGE TO REINSTALL IT. IF YOU DON'T, YOU CAN ACTUALLY DISTORT THE MOVT PLATE/BRIDGES DUE TO THE DELICACY OF THESE TINY LITTLE THINGS. Oops, hit caps, sorry. Too loaded to edit.

On the men's with microstellas, it's doable in the watch pretty easily.

I'm off to bed. Too tired...

[RWG Technical]

Fair enough. I agree it takes a special (read that whatever way you want) type of person and personality to do watch repairs and servicing. It's a bit of a loaner world, but a great way to unwind from the days activity.

It was not my intention to come accross as arrogant, but I think it better to have an option and take a stand on a topic, than to sit back and say nothing at all. That was my only intention, and the same held true for the servicing without total disassembly, it did not work for me, fair enough, I tried and it's not my thing, so I'll stick to what I have always done. To each their own.

Apprecite the tips and hope to see some informative posts.

RG

[HauteHippie]

Oops, hit caps, sorry. Too loaded to edit.

Dunno 'bout your watchmaking skills, but your marketing skills could sure use some polishing.

[Amplitude]

Dunno 'bout your watchmaking skills, but your marketing skills could sure use some polishing.

Funny, I used to be in marketing. But I'm not marketing now so I don't care. (And I only post here in my very precious free time, when I am drinking...) Anyhow, love you guys.

The fakes are getting so good that anybody but total watchhounds aren't able to distinguish. The boss won't sell second hand watches at ALL. He buys "stainless steel" watches of any brand but Rolex at $25.00. He doesen't have the time or interest to niggle over details that could get him sued. so it's scrap or nothing for him. That is probably the norm throughout. He scared a poor kid with a "Tag" yesterday telling him not to get it water tested because it wasn't "original", until he looked a little closer and realized it WAS a real TAG-Heuer. (In all fairness, the kid thought it needed a new battery, but it was an automatic. He didn't even know what an automatic is.)

[stang]

Wow,

Unbelieveable thread. I hope, as someone said, that this pond is big enough for two fishes. The Zigmeister will always be the definitive expert on watch service around here and I doubt anyone would question his ability, dedication and old-world craftsmanship philosophy. I also believe there has been constant innovation in tools, materials and processes which can improve the time consuming task of watch repair.

My take on "the technician's" suggestions was that he was describing a process that when utilized exactly as he has done (same equipment, same materials, same exact process) would yeild results close (94%(???)) to the optimum paradigm The Zigmeister employs. Perhaps the results would have been different if The Zigmeister had known/duplicated exactly what Amplitude had done. For example, I know drying via centrifugation yeilds different results that drying-in-place (centrifugation causes the dirty water to fling off the parts, while evaporation causes deposits to stay. Forced air may not be sufficient to clear all the tiny crevices). Likewise with the number and type of washes, oiling equipment, procedural nuance, etc. I don't know.

Maybe Amplitude can/will show us the before & after results of using his processes, materials and equipment. I would be very interested in seeing before shots of a disassembled, dirty movement that is then re-assembled, cleaned per his methods, and disassembled again to show the results. A lot of work, I know ... but not much more than The Zigmeister does regularly (one extra disassembly).

Regardless, I doubt anyone disagrees that The Zigmeister's method is the 100% best way to service a mechanical watch.

Again, Kudos and Thanks for the incredible amount of information and service you've provided The Zigmeister!!!!