The Big Question

[freddy333]

The Mission: To make the WM/MBW DRSD caseback look like the gen caseback.

The Background: Many of us have been struggling with ways to mod the caseback of the WM/MBW DRSD to more closely replicate the vintage appearance and feel of a 30 to 40 year old gen DRSD caseback. As most of us know, the caseback that comes fitted onto the current crop of WM/MBW DRSDs was engraved with equipment that did not exist at the time the gen watches were originally manufactured. The lettering, which was engraved onto the caseback of the WM/MBW, is sharp, flat and quite detailed. Meanwhile, the lettering on the gen caseback (in its original form) was relatively more rounded, deep (looking as if it was pressed into the caseback (an important point, which I will go into in a bit more detail below) and dull in comparison. And because of this, the WM/MBW caseback, even with the paint removed (an absolute requirement for the modder or owner seeking any pretense towards authenticity), remains a weak point.

So, for many weeks now, I have been considering ways to re-engrave the text to make it appear more like the gen. To this end, I have taken the caseback to 4 jewelers in an effort to see if they could offer an improvement. While all said they could round out the lettering, none were able to replicate it exactly or to recreate the sunkin effect of the gen lettering. I have also seen some very good engraving work done by a couple of the better modders here. But, still, none of these got the pressed-in appearance of the lettering either. So I was in a quandry -- why did all of the gen casebacks have this sunkin appearance?

Recently, while browsing a local estate sale shop that had a watchmaker on the premises, I got the answer I had been looking for. It turns out that the text on the gen casebacks was stamped into the steel, not engraved as I had always thought. And because the stamper was applied with force, it slightly dented the area around each character producing that telltale sunkin appearance that only a true vintage caseback has. (The timing of this news could not have been better, because I was about to have a Comex caseback engraved with a serial number. With this piece of the puzzle solved, I immediately canceled that plan and set about ordering a custom metal stamper.)

Since it is unlikely (not to mention prohibitively expensive) that a custom metal stamper could be made to exactly replicate the content & layout of characters on the WM/MBW DRSD caseback, another alternative must be found to achieve a similar stamped result. My initial thought was to use a small flathead screwdriver and hammer to carefully and slowly hammer out each of the characters to deepen and round them out. In theory, at least, it could work, but it would also be alot of work and the likelihood of ending up with a caseback that looks like it was hammered with a small flathead screwdriver seems high to me.

The Big Question: Can anyone suggest other options?

[Guest avitt]

I am very fortunate, in that my DRSD case back is atypical, and appears more genuine. However, I have given this problem some thought. I suggest a two-step approach: First, I would find a skilled jeweler who could use a hand graver to deepen the existing lettering (without modifying the shape of the letters). Once that was done, I would polish the heck out of it....The polishing will round over the edges of the characters, effectively emulating the stamped look that you seek. (Polishing should also take care of any areas left uneven by the hand engraving).

Edited May 16, 2007 by avitt

[freddy333]

Avitt -- As usual, a well thought out answer and one that I have considered as well. But, unfortunately, that option does not address the main issue -- how to replicate the sunkin effect of the characters on the gen casebacks? Somehow, the characters would still need to be hammered or pressed in, and that is the part that I am having trouble with. After that, engraving as you described, followed by a good sanding (the sanding would accelerate a few decades worth of polishing), polishing and antiquing should produce an acceptable result.

But the question remains how to create the sunkin effect?

[mojo2001]

I'm with avitt on the engrave then polish scheme.

I think whatever they used to stamp those letters weighed as much as a car and may well have stamped the whole caseback out of a sheet of SS at the same time that it was impressing the lettering.

No way you could do that with a hammer. Cast iron hydraulic press, perhaps...

I think you would be looking at 8 or 9 k to get dies made up for this sort of work at a high level of precision.

Engrave and grind would be a definite step in the right direction..

[freddy333]

You may very well be right, but I will have a better handle on the stamping possibilities in a few weeks. I just ordered a custom metal stamp designed for use on stainless steel to imprint a serial number on my Comex rep caseback (there is a separate thread about this). I sent the stamp factory photos of the font I want as well as a picture of a gen caseback showing what I am trying to achieve. They said the stamp would produce that type of indented mark with a few knocks from a standard hammer (with the caseback sitting on a wood block). I will be amazed if it turns out to be that easy, but I will know soon enough. Unfortunately, they are unable to replicate a stamp for the entire DRSD caseback with any guarantee of font size/style accuracy. But if the basic process proves successful by hammering a metal stamp into a caseback, I think it will just be a matter of locating the remaining stamps and perfecting the process.

In the meantime, I appreciate all of the input so far (very helpful) and welcome any others.

[FxrAndy]

What does the inside of a gen case back look like, ie are the stamped letter visible from the inside, because!

If you stamp your self and you manage to indent the SS to the level you want to it will show through on the inside, unless!

You have a perfect form that fits the inside of the case back and method to stop the case back jumping every time you hit it.

[Guest avitt]

I was also going to recommend that you be very careful when stamping the case back. I think that you'll find that the metal is actually quite thin in the middle...It would be very easy to deform the back, which would be unsightly, and difficult or impossible to repair.

[FxrAndy]

Just been having a look at the inside of SD case backs, not MBWs but from what i see if you manage to imprint the out side i reckon you will mark the inside as well. Try filling the back with clay or putty, take it out and see if you can find someone with a lathe to make a stand that will fit in there so that when you stamp it the force will go against the stand and you will stand less chance of deforming it and coming through.

[freddy333]

I was also going to recommend that you be very careful when stamping the case back. I think that you'll find that the metal is actually quite thin in the middle...It would be very easy to deform the back, which would be unsightly, and difficult or impossible to repair.

Avitt and fx -- Good points all. I will definitely place something form-fitting below the caseback and I will experiment a bit on a scrap part before starting on this one. But, for what it is worth, while I certainly do not want to deform the caseback, I am not really very concerned with the appearance of the text on the inside. I have never quite understood the reason why so many rep owners (at least those who are not building franken watches containing gen Rolex movements) are concerned with the visual accuracy inside the case. After all, no matter how good the lettering on the inside of the caseback is, anyone knowledgeable enough to look inside will know, in an instant, that the watch is a rep. And I will happily screw up the lettering on the inside of the caseback if that will result in an improvement in the lettering on the outside. Does that make sense?

[mojo2001]

I had a set of metal stamps with 1/4" letters and numbers that I tried to use to mark tube numbers on amplifiers that I was building. The materials I tried to use were soft aluminum and roof copper sheet, also quite soft. I clamped the metal (which was flat) to a piece of soft wood before stamping.

My experience was that I could get maybe HALF of the numbers looking good with a whack from a small sledge hammer. The problem is that you only get one shot. I could not get a good second impression if It didn't work the first time. Most of the problem letters were deep on one end and light on the other,...maybe the way I was holding the die....they were like 3" long chisel looking things.

I think the problem I mention could be worse with a big COMEX number. You would have to hit that sucker dead on.

You guys might think I like heavy tools since I'm always saying get a 75 drill press, buy a Hydraulic press...

I think that a press is way better than a whack with a hammer. Even a rig up with a vise that will press the numbers into the case would have a lot more control.

At the very least, I'd be looking for a way to hold the stamper in place instead of my hand.

I sure like the idea though! A bit of experimentation on different materials will let you know what the real challenges are.

[freddy333]

Good point. Once I receive the stamp, I will toy around with a vice to see if there is a way to press it into the caseback with that. The factory seemed pretty certain that there would not be a problem with a hammer, but I am going to do some pre-testing on scrap cases and hopefully I will be able to work out a successful scheme.

The stamp numbers I ordered are 1/4" in size. From the sound of it, the tool will resemble a narrow nail tap, but with the numbers in place of the point at the business end of the tap. But I will have a better idea once I receive the tool in a few weeks.

I never built an amp from scratch, but I used to do a bit of rebuilding & modding of old valve (tube) stuff. I guess some of us have modding in our blood.

[polexpete]

Forget stamping and fancy custom tooling. A bit of good old fashion elbow grease is whats needed. Take a sheet of 500 grit wet 'n' dry and go over thoughly smoothing out those sharp edges. Then repeat with 800 and then with 1500. After get yer dremel with a polishing wheel with a bit of rouge and polish to a high sheen. For an authentic vintage look bang on a brick a few times beforehand. Voila!

P.

[polexpete]

Forget stamping and fancy custom tooling. A bit of good old fashion elbow grease is whats needed. Take a sheet of 500 grit wet 'n' dry and go over thoughly smoothing out those sharp edges. Then repeat with 800 and then with 1500. After get yer dremel with a polishing wheel with a bit of rouge and polish to a high sheen. For an authentic vintage look bang on a brick a few times beforehand. Voila!

P.

[freddy333]

PP -- I appreciate the input, and your work looks very good, but still obviously done with modern engraving equipment. The main question I am trying to solve is how to recreate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on the gen caseback, which was originally stamped (not engraved)? I can sand & polish out the sharp edges of the engraving, but no amount of sanding and polishing will duplicate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on the gen caseback. And that is the part I am trying to figure out.

[polexpete]

PP -- I appreciate the input, and your work looks very good, but still obviously done with modern engraving equipment. The main question I am trying to solve is how to recreate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on the gen caseback, which was originally stamped (not engraved)? I can sand & polish out the sharp edges of the engraving, but no amount of sanding and polishing will duplicate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on the gen caseback. And that is the part I am trying to figure out.

Hey Freddy, good to debate with you again. Actually the Comex case i submitted was a weak attempt at my endeavor to replicate an original caseback. With more patience and elbow grease its possible to get closer to the gen. I will post pics soon to see what you think.

P.

[freddy333]

Thank you and I look forward to seeing how successful you are in recreating that sunkin appearance of the lettering. You do good work.

Here is another photo that may better illustrate the sunkin appearance of the lettering on a gen DRSD caseback

As you can see by the way light is reflected around each letter, the surface of the case appears slightly 'pressed in', which I now understand is caused by the stamping process (at the factory, the stamping was probably accomplished with the use of a heavy press machine). The area around the lettering on our rep cases, even when properly sanded and polished, is still noticeably flat in relation to the same area on the gen caseback. But I think that once we can find a way to replicate both the stamped (pressed in) appearance as well as the more rounded, worn look of the lettering on the gen case, we will have a winner.

Edit -- More and more, I am thinking that TheWightStuff had the right idea to use an engraving tool to widen and round each of the original engravings as a first step. Using his procedure prior to whatever tool or procedure we can devise to replicate the sunkin texture, followed by Pete's sanding/polishing should result in a near perfect vintage caseback.

[Stephane]

Simply wanting to say THANKS for all these informations.

The case back is, to my opinion, a very very important and nice part of a watch, specialy for SDs.

Cheers

Stephane

[freddy333]

Has anyone used one of these

to make their stock WM/MBW DRSD caseback look more like this

I was in Sears collecting parts for the upcoming He valve mod and, on impulse, decided to pick up one of these Dremel engravers. I had previously bought two diamond engraving bits for my standard Dremel, but the tips of both bits were about twice as wide as the width of the lines in the lettering on my caseback. I had an extra caseback from another watch that I used to practice on, but the bits completely overwrote (by a wide margin) the original engraving, which messed it all up.

This new engraver comes with a more narrow tip that looks like it might actually fit into the existing engraving. But before I open the package I wanted to see if anyone else (who successfully re-engraved their caseback) used one of these tools. If you have, can you tell me how you used it? I am wondering whether you start the engraver and then place it into one of the grooves of the letter and start moving, or do you place the tip into the groove first (with the engraver off) and then switch it on and begin moving?

[FxrAndy]

I have used similar engravers before and never managed to get a straight line from them due to the rotary nature of the bit, try on some thing else first, first start the engraver and then go to work, if you try it the other way round it will just fly out of the grove.

[freddy333]

fx -- That is the same problem I had with the diamond Dremel engraving bits I used on the other caseback. Between the 'wobbly' nature of the rotating Dremel shaft and the width of the tip of the bits, I completely bullocks up the caseback. Fortunately, it was scrap. But the experience tells me the standard Dremel is not the correct tool for this type of re-engraving work.

What are people using to do this?

[Guest avitt]

I'm starting to think that maybe I have a genuine case back

[freddy333]

Because the lettering on your caseback does not appear to have that sunkin appearance, I think it is probably a rep (that was re-engraved by someone with the 'right' tool (whatever that is) and some experience). But I could be wrong. Maybe the new Dremel engraving tool (which I have not opened yet) can produce better results than I got with the standard Dremel driving a diamond engraving tip. But if it does, I would sure like to know how.

[cskent69]

I'm starting to think that maybe I have a genuine case back

I would sure like my caseback to look like that. Any hints?

[mojo2001]

I don't know, Mon....that caseback does not look like it was re-engraved to me. Totally perfect and even in all dimensions.

When pros engrave stuff like that they use stencils or a pantograph driven by a stylus riding in a stencil.

NOBODY could do that freehand, I don't think.

How about polexpete's suggestion of sanding and buffing. That seems like a recipe to enlarge the opening at the top of the letter a bit. Downside risk is certainly lower.

Otherwise, I'd ask somebody who engraves for a living what they think.

[freddy333]

I have sanded a couple of casebacks and while it does soften the face of each letter a bit, it has no effect on the width, depth or inside texture. Sanding also does not create that sunkin appearance of the original stamped impression.

Before I began on this quest, I tried to locate a jeweler who could replicate one of the gen casebacks. Either they did not have the proper equipment or they refused to work on the part because they did not want to work on a rep.