9/11: Lest the French Forget....a rant.

[Pugwash]

You win. Thanks for your sincerity and your willingness to understand, Pug

Here's the speech that explained the rationales for going to war:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20030205-1.html

Will that do?

[Victoria]

Here's the speech that explained the rationales for going to war:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20030205-1.html

Will that do?

This thread is about 9/11. Let's stick to the off-topic programme, or create yet another thread about Iraq.

[ratchpot]

What happened was one TV station ran one documentary that Ryyannon objected to. Let's not let this get out of hand here.

I think that sums it all up, although people tend to stray off the point when it comes to emotive topics.

[cranium]

Again, thanks for clarifying why US went to war. You are the champ. But my original post just said that 9/11 had massive global impact. I rescind that statement, because I'm obviously wrong. Noobie's mistake.

[Pugwash]

This thread is about 9/11. Let's stick to the off-topic programme, or create yet another thread about Iraq.

Actually, the thread wasn't about 9/11, it's about the French media, but I get your point. My posts were to end the Iraq side-track as it's not even a debate.

[Victoria]

Actually, the thread wasn't about 9/11, it's about the French media, but I get your point. My posts were to end the Iraq side-track as it's not even a debate.

You're right (French media). Thanks for the understanding though.

[cranium]

This should teach me NOT to go to the "Off-Topic" forum!

[ryyannon]

This should teach me NOT to go to the "Off-Topic" forum!

Don't get discouraged, Cranium - 'Off-Topic' is sort of the RWG Mosh Pit....

[Pix]

September 11th was a true drama, and lived as such in France too (may I remind that France regularly suffered of Islamic terrorism since the Eighties..?)

Ryannon, you know that introducing the French against Americans topic can only lead to feelings speaking louder than reason... And that's what I have to do now : I have to answer you, as I feel your understanding of the French attitude is partial or biased.

This "anniversary" was largely covered in all French TV news. Besides, France 5 (an other State owned TV channel) had a special event on September 11th, which I followed, as I still feel very concerned by this horrible event. They also made an hommage to "the forgotten" : american firemen who died this day. Needless to make a long listing of who spoke about this topic or not, and needless to say that even in France, there are regular and detailed TV broadcasts about 9/11. Reading your post, I have the feeling you mean "France doesn't bother". It's wrong.

I was shocked at the very beginning of Irak's War about a broadcast on CNN where I saw an american soldier showing some socalled "massive destruction weapons" adding "it's French made"... and these were actually even NOT weapons. How idiot this guy was, and he surely did not realize he explained to millions of Americans that France supplied MD weapons to Saddam... There are many examples like this illustrating the partiality and resentment of some American people against French, just because the French Government decided not to support Bush's administration in their vendetta against Saddam Hussein.

I can't agree with your perception of how 9/11 was NOT recalled by French Media, it's just not true.

It gets worse when you seem to say that France3 decided about their "disturbing" broadcast on purpose on that particular day, as if they had to show something, some kind of revenge or call it as you want... Do you really believe that ?

I feel much more disturbed by the 2004 Tsunami's anniversary not recalled at all... More than 200 000 people died on December 26th. But who cares 3 years later ? They had the misfortune not to be westerners

[Victoria]

More than 200 000 people died on December 26th. But who cares 3 years later ? They had the misfortune not to be westerners

One hundred years later, and we still talk about, remember, and read books about Krakatoa.

Your comments were good, Pix. Thanks for providing us with the much-needed opposing viewpoint, if you will, although there was absolutely nothing "oppositional" about your reply. It was just an elucidation.

But to end such a reply with a slap to the collective...I don't know...Western...white persons'?...faces, well, I personally feel that was an overreach. It reminded me of Hotel Rwanda, when the Nick Nolte UN-troop commander character said, "They don't care because you're black."

That's nonsense. Armenians are Caucasian too, and WHEN in the history of the world, white, black, yellow, has any nation paused to say a prayer for their 1 million people slaughtered? Maybe, who knows, when 2015 comes around, we might remember.

[Pugwash]

Pop quiz ... without looking it up, when was Hiroshima demolished by nuke?

Some dates fade into history, some dates are remembered. Only time will tell which 9/11 will be.

[ryyannon]

This "anniversary" was largely covered in all French TV news. Besides, France 5 (an other State owned TV channel) had a special event on September 11th, which I followed, as I still feel very concerned by this horrible event. They also made an hommage to "the forgotten" : american firemen who died this day. Needless to make a long listing of who spoke about this topic or not, and needless to say that even in France, there are regular and detailed TV broadcasts about 9/11.

I was shocked at the very beginning of Irak's War about a broadcast on CNN where I saw an american soldier showing some socalled "massive destruction weapons" adding "it's French made"... and these were actually even NOT weapons. How idiot this guy was, and he surely did not realize he explained to millions of Americans that France supplied MD weapons to Saddam... :

Other than the fact that I have too much affection for anything that has feathers and can fly, this is like shooting ducks in a barrel:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1099272003

from one of many sources on Google, but I'm sure certain members of our Scottish contingent who were on active duty at the time will appreciate the part about the French Exocets used against British troops in the Falklands - as much as we were tickled pink by the news that "... U.S. Army and Australian special forces teams discovered advanced versions of a French-made surface-to-air missile system in Iraq. U.S. Air Force officials are certain that Iraqi French-made Roland missiles downed at least one A-10 "Warthog" attack jet and may have killed two USAF pilots in an F-15E Strike Eagle."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articl...29/162810.shtml

I'm also glad that you mentioned the "hommage to 'the forgotten' American firemen who died this day" by French television, since I myself chose not to mention this.

Perhaps we weren't watching the same channel, but what I saw was another 'documentary' on the total indifferance of the American government to the very serious health problems of the firemen and other emergency workers who inhaled toxic substances on Ground Zero in the days and weeks after the attacks.

As I say, I chose not to mention this - and have mentally blocked out still more that I could have mentioned from my memory. Interestingly enough, there was a reminder this evening in the form of a rapid visual summary of selected images from yesterday's offering from all French channels in the nightly "Zapping" on Canal Plus.* I can assure you that both the intention and the effect were to portray the American government - and through guilt by association, Americans themselves - in the worst possible light. Anniversary of 9/11 or not, this is typically what is seen here: the usual fare.

If you do happen to have a list of all the hommages and respectful evocations of 9/11 that you say appeared on French television, please do post them here: I'm sincerely interested in seeing what I missed.

*Here's the link to what the French saw concerning 9/11 - a selection from all French channels: see 'Zapping' of 12/09, which is a roundup of images appearing the day before. For still more on the callousness of Condi Rice, the stupidity of Americans, and Hurricane Katrina as a metaphore for Bush's presidency, see the Zapping of 11/09.

<a href="http://www.canalplus.fr/c-infos-documentai...-c-zapping.html" target="_blank">http://www.canalplus.fr/c-infos-documentai...-c-zapping.html</a>?

Another major French cable channel - Plan

[ryyannon]

Pop quiz ... without looking it up, when was Hiroshima demolished by nuke?

Some dates fade into history, some dates are remembered. Only time will tell which 9/11 will be.

Riiight.

With that, I'm out of this thread.

Before it sinks any lower.

[cranium]

Pugwash, I know that Japan's instrument of surrender was September 2, 1945 ... so without looking, I'm guessing about a month earlier? :cc_surrender:

But as a side note ... Hiroshima is commonly referred to as "Hiroshima". 9/11 is commonly referred to as "9/11" ... so just by nature, it may be easier to remember the date of the latter

[Pugwash]

Australian special forces teams working in Iraq

[Pix]

Ryannon,

first I want you to know that I was not reacting against you, but against the idea that you (or some) think there exist some kind of hidden conspiracy from the French media against Americans. I do believe that's not true, but I don't want to argue that much on this topic, as it really calls more guts than reason. Moreover I do not want to look like your foe or anyone's. Let's conclude we just disagree.

Regarding French weapons, sorry for the new off-topic : France, as the USA belong to the largest weapons manufacturers, so inevitably you find them killing (even French) people over the World. Let's not start this debate. I was just mentionning that it was absolutely needless for the concerned american soldier to say "hey, that's a French MD weapon" whereas :

- it was NOT (may I remember these MD weapons have never been found and that Iraki's soldier probably used US weapons too)

- the remark was just increasing the "hate" in a frame where Bush administration was already entertaining some resentment against France for not being their allies in this very matter (President Bush refused to sleep in France during the G8 meeting that was held at that time, isn't that childish ?)

Then, as Pug said, let the history (not the media or even us) decide if 9/11 has to be remembered over years, and also do not beat a dead horse.

What I understand from France (and French media) is that this event was and still is considered as serious, but was not "printed" in the collective memory (at least not as much as in the US), as the event simply did not take place here. Well, if that's fair or not is surely an other story. Just look at how countries also forgot about the GB or Spanish tragedies that followed. There's no conspiracy either.

Back to the broadcast concerning American liberators, I do not think there actually is any French resentment regarding these facts. We must not forget, but must forgive. And I think that's done already. Otherwise, how would I live 20 km from the German border, and how would I do business with German people, who I respect and put on pretty well in my daily life. Hating them for historical reason would be as stupid as saying "hey, remember Lafayette..." Some facts are too old to be used as arguments to justify today's politic situation.

[docblackrock]

Apologies for digging up a 'dead horse' (the only French jibe I promise ) of a thread but having trawled through this, I feel inclined to share a few thoughts...

I think the nub of this discussion, which was touched upon by someone else, is that the media are a law unto themselves and have their own agenda. Whether that is having a dig at the US government at a delicate time or stirring up some inhouse European row, they relish any opportunity. It's one reason why I take everything I read or see with a pinch of contextual salt. Re. the events themselves, to be honest, I didn't pick up much going on here in England either, the odd repeated docu-drama (Falling Man one, most popular probably due to the morbid fascination Pug referred to).

I was actually caught up in the uncomfortably close environs of both the NY and London terrorist attacks, but must admit I don't feel any strong urge to partake in absorbing conveyor belt media coverage on the anniversaries in question. Is that wrong and heartless of me? I don't think so, as I believe one can remember with having to "commemorate".

I understand Americans being (over?)sensitive to any perceived snub of the anniversary of the event, but then quid pro quo, Americans should also be sensitive to the fact that it is nothing particularly new to us Europeans - I grew up with the quite literal threat and fallout of Irish Republicanism all around me. Sure there was often a different 'code' adhered to with respect to innocent lives but still. The French a little further back had their Algerian 'problem'. No less real, no less serious. Just two examples, there's many more.

Amongst the shock and condolences post-Sept 11 there was a definite undercurrent of 'welcome to the REAL world', a nod perhaps to America's comfortable isolationism at home, whilst simultaneously pursuing an aggressive and unwelcome self-appointed role as "the world's policeman". Back in the '90s, even the legendary pro golfer-now-commentator Peter Alliss (a more affable man you could not hope to meet) once railed against his colleagues during a PGA/USPGA meeting which got heated, by stating "the problem with you bloody Americans, is that you've never had someone drop bombs on your house. We have, it was called the Blitz. Maybe if you knew what that was like then your attitude to others would be very different". Before you point fingers, I am merely using that offbeat example to illustrate the thoughts out there. Personally I think the only 'problem' with Americans in general is that they feel somehow honour-bound to unquestionably support the stance and policies of whatever muppet they have elected into the White House at the time, whereas Europeans in general feel duty-bound to question and rail against the stance and policies of their government. It's practically a national sport, along with that kicking game with the round ball we also like to play a lot of. As for criticising foreign governments, well that's just too easy. These opposing stances are the origin of much of the misunderstanding and resentment IMO.

The "who's firing whose weapons" argument? French Exocets in the Falklands Ry? Frankly we were more concerned about how the Argentinians were still unpacking crates of British weapons that spring of '82 - may as well have had Port Stanley delivery addresses on them Anyway, no point going here, business is business, politics rarely gets involved, and we all now know the scary paradox that the largest arms exporters globally are also the five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

The anti-American conspiracy? Doesn't exist IMO. Sure there's no great love lost between the French and Americans but I think the whole thing has got out of hand. So bloody what they didn't support the US in Iraq? Regardless of whether you agree or not, one should never criticise another for having the courage of their convictions. I am not comfortable with this "with us or against us" mentality, seems very wrong. Anyway, I don't hear any bleats about the Spanish - I mean they got involved, were hit at home, and as a result the people (admirably) kicked their government out, and the new lot pulled their troops out before breakfast the next day. Never heard any "boycott tapas bars" protests at the time. Let's face it we're all officially "allies" but that's more akin to work colleagues, people who you work in conjunction with and are civil to as long as your interests don't conflict. They're not "friends". And yes, I'd lump us Brits in with that, allies not friends. The whole "special relationship" thing is a pathetic joke, a term coined in an era in which it only applied as a euphemism for your Ronnie trying to give our Maggie one (not a mental image for the faint-hearted!). I mean, I see no "special relationship" when I queue for 2 hours and am aggressively questioned when trying to get through JFK. Never have I witnessed such an ironic statement as the DHS' "Welcome to the USA" in the immigration clearance hall. Oh but of course I forget I live in a country that is apparently a hotbed of homegrown terrorist recruitment and training. I feel the animosity strongly and I am white Anglo-Irish, god knows what my other countrymen of ethnic origin, experience. I hate to think.

And finally getting back to original point of the French media showing this documentary, well I welcome it. Personally I have never heard about those post D-Day events, alleged or not. I agree the timing was a little suspect perhaps, but then I'm not sure history/documentary programming is at the cutting edge of world events/news scheduling (there are precedents, however, Panorama in the UK being one). So maliciously scheduled or not, I think there is an absolute need for these types of programmes, so much is forgotten by history, far far worse atrocities, that people NEED to be constantly force-fed however uncomfortable. If the timing upsets a few others, that's tough. Just because these past atrocities weren't captured by seemingly endless video footage, they are no less impactful (we're talking MILLIONS here those of you who inappropriately quoted numbers dead as a comparison) , nor should they have to pay deference to more recent events. In fact one could argue they should take precedence as without first-hand reports or footage, the risk of being forgotten in history, is infinitely greater. We live at a time now when there are only a handful of Holocaust survivors, yet there are now Neo-Nazi groups in Israel. Also, it is (shockingly) only a mere 14 years since another attempted genocide was witnessed in the Balkans, a conflict the rest of Europe and the US, prefer to ignore, both now and more tragically at the time itself. Go on, I challenge anyone here to name me one significant date relating to either of those events from memory. No? Thought not.

There now, all done. To quote Ryyanon, who started this topic with what I respect as his own feelings..... "rant over".

[docblackrock]

Well well, what is French for "how the worm turns"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6998602.stm

[ryyannon]

I thank both you and Pix for feeling concerned enough by these issues to contribute your input....which I've read with interest - but like I said above: I'm out of this thread.

There's just too much to even begin responding to.

Not just in questions of 'right' or 'wrong' opinions, but the even more laborious task of repositioning the whole debate into more objective contexts - a task beyond my energy, not to mention my limited abilities to employ a rational - rather than an emotional and anecdotal - line of logic.

I'm most at ease in irony and absurdity - neither of which I care to employ when discussing these past, present and future tragedies, victories, or necessary readjustments of geopolitical realities - depending on one's point of view.

[Victoria]

Apologies for digging up a 'dead horse' (the only French jibe I promise ) of a thread but having trawled through this, I feel inclined to share a few thoughts...

Me too, as a brief rebuttal to some of your points. Let me just say that though I disagree with many, I appreciate that you can write them without hurling personal insults, which is not usually the case in forums. Pix' reply was admirable in that respect too.

Back in the '90s, even the legendary pro golfer-now-commentator Peter Alliss (a more affable man you could not hope to meet) once railed against his colleagues during a PGA/USPGA meeting which got heated, by stating "the problem with you bloody Americans, is that you've never had someone drop bombs on your house. We have, it was called the Blitz. Maybe if you knew what that was like then your attitude to others would be very different".

God only knows what would've happened to an American PGA broadcaster if he had replied in kind with, "And the problem with you g-ddamn Europeans is that you want the USA to come rescue you every time you g-ddamn get into trouble."

Unlike Aliss, that broadcaster would've been fired the next day because there is zero-tolerance here for such gratuitously insulting talk. Just ask Mr. Don Imus.

Affable or not, it shows deep-seated bigotry against Americans on the one hand, and a lack of sympathy which is present when something ill befalls Americans. "They had it coming", is a very poor human reaction indeed, and one which is unthinkable if America were Africa.

Mind you, I remember the amazing tributes to America in Grosvenor Sq just outside the embassy in London.

It was heart-meltingly beautiful to see that from my own countrymen to the US, in her grief. The Queen composed one of the most beautiful personal messages I have yet heard written by anyone, which the US President read out loud in his speech at National Cathedral.

I know we British will always be on the side of Americans, because there is just too much shared history, culture, and mutual respect not to be. There is even a level of affection which we are loathe to admit we have for them -- but we surely know how to stick it to them, when the going isn't so tough, don't we?

Unfortunately, the British have a love-hate relationship with the US which is purely one-sided. The Americans often are bemused by the British -- but really, they don't spend nearly as much time thinking about us as we do them. And I think that's part of the problem.

They are now the senior, MUCH more important partner, and somewhere, that hurts.

Before you point fingers, I am merely using that offbeat example to illustrate the thoughts out there. Personally I think the only 'problem' with Americans in general is that they feel somehow honour-bound to unquestionably support the stance and policies of whatever muppet they have elected into the White House at the time, whereas Europeans in general feel duty-bound to question and rail against the stance and policies of their government. It's practically a national sport, along with that kicking game with the round ball we also like to play a lot of. As for criticising foreign governments, well that's just too easy. These opposing stances are the origin of much of the misunderstanding and resentment IMO.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Especially since Nixon, there is no President which has survived a second term in office without a challenge to his presidency at the LEGAL level, let alone at the popular, and media level.

Even before Watergate, that was the case, but the attitude of respect towards the Office was very great.

But as was our attitude of respect great towards the incumbents at Number 10, too, before "bloody Wilson".

[eddhead]

I thank both you and Pix for feeling concerned enough by these issues to contribute your input....which I've read with interest - but like I said above: I'm out of this thread.

There's just too much to even begin responding to.

Not just in questions of 'right' or 'wrong' opinions, but the even more laborious task of repositioning the whole debate into more objective contexts - a task beyond my energy, not to mention my limited abilities to employ a rational - rather than an emotional and anecdotal - line of logic.

I'm most at ease in irony and absurdity - neither of which I care to employ when discussing these past, present and future tragedies, victories, or necessary readjustments of geopolitical realities - depending on one's point of view.

It is ironic, but at a time when you are contemplating leaving this thread i am taking it upon myself to into it. Sorry, the issue was too emotional for me to respond to a few days back, and to be honest with you I was kind of enraged at the responses to your original post.

The genesis of your message was that France 3 chose a particularly curious day to launch into a "documentary" on the offenses of US armed forces around the Globe, be it an accurate reflection or a slanted one which i suspect it is. In fact it was not curious at all ... it was disgusting. I agree wholeheartedly. Shame on them.

To several on this board and indeed around the world, 9/11 seems to represent a a day when the big bully got tweaked by the underdog. How impersonal and despicable. 4000 innocent lives were lost on a day when one of the world's great cities was attacked. I still remember looking accross the Varizzano bridge and seeing a 50 - 100 story smoldering heep where the towers used to be, days after the attack. Colleagues of mine witnessed people jumping out of buildings 100 stories up, to aviod burning to death. I work 2 blocks from the area, and live less than 1/2 mile away in mid-town Manhattan. This is very personal to me.

9/11 is not about what happened in Iraq after the fact. It is not about 7/7. It is not about all the cruel injustice in the world. It stands on its own... one of the world's great cities was attacked that day, 4000 lives were lost, and New York will never be the same. I frankly don't give a flying F if it touches you as an individual or not and I have learned long ago not to expect any sympathy from the french. But don't try to blow smoke up my a$$ with all this "documentary" b.s. or the banal 'no big deal it happens all over the world' crap either. I would not accept it if the eiffel tower were blown up and 4000 french lost their lives (God forbid) and I will not accept it n this case either.

[Pugwash]

To several on this board and indeed around the world, 9/11 seems to represent a a day when the big bully got tweaked by the underdog. How impersonal and despicable.

Eh?

11th September was a day the US, a friend and ally to most countries represented here, got hurt, and bad. No-one disputes this. You can't strawman all posts that disagree with you as "Oh, you're heartless therefore your opinions don't matter."

So, one news channel showed news you didn't like and did it on a day that represents something different to you. What's the big deal? Sure, France 3 is probably not the US's best friend, but come on, they're not supporting your enemies or killing your people. Get some perspective on this.

You need to try to see it from someone else's point of view. Someone that didn't see the rubble and smoke. Someone to whom this whole thing meant a lot less because they present the news every day and see this sort of thing the world over day in, day out. Working in the news will desensitise you to six year-old disasters.

Sure, it was probably a faux pas showing the program that day, but it's not that big a deal.

[docblackrock]

Sorry, the issue was too emotional for me to respond to a few days back

It clearly still is. I understand and sympathise but I cannot bring myself to agree that your perspective takes precedence. I'm with Pug on this one.

Me too, as a brief rebuttal to some of your points. Let me just say that though I disagree with many

Disappointed but not surprised given your choice of domicile, which you seem to have embraced with open arms, lips, and it seems, even a bit of tongue

God only knows what would've happened to an American PGA broadcaster if he had replied in kind with, "And the problem with you g-ddamn Europeans is that you want the USA to come rescue you every time you g-ddamn get into trouble.". Unlike Aliss, that broadcaster would've been fired the next day because there is zero-tolerance here for such gratuitously insulting talk. Just ask Mr. Don Imus.

And therein lies the problem, zero-tolerance for anyone that dares raise an unpopular opinion or one that goes against the grain. Allis did not say this on-air it was a private meeting. He lost his temper due to some severe provocation namely disrespect and belittling of the traditions and executive power of the R&A. Sound familiar? I don't believe it was the most diplomatic thing to say even pre-9/11, but 'gratuitously insulting'? No, because unlike your hypothetical rejoinder on being always "helped out" by the US, it is based on fact. Don't forget in context the majority of Alliss' generation still firmly attest that had the US got involved in WW2 prior to being given no choice in 1941, things in Europe may have been different. Again, not my generation not my beliefs, but a common attitude which is perhaps unpalatable but certainly not insulting.

Affable or not, it shows deep-seated bigotry against Americans on the one hand, and a lack of sympathy which is present when something ill befalls Americans. "They had it coming", is a very poor human reaction indeed, and one which is unthinkable if America were Africa..

I'm not quite sure exactly what you're referring to when you cry "j'accuse! in terms of bigotry, but that's a poor choice of phrase. You can't really be serious to suggest there was an element of schadenfraude about 9/11? We all watched in shock, horror and utmost sympathy. That's not to say a shrug of resignation of "welcome to the rest of the world" is bigoted or dispicable, merely a natural reaction of inevitability amongst those uninvolved who have experienced similar if not worse atrocities. Same comments were levelled at Sweden (even by the Swedes themselves) when Palme was assassinated walking home alone from the cinema.

Mind you, I remember the amazing tributes to America in Grosvenor Sq just outside the embassy in London. It was heart-meltingly beautiful to see that from my own countrymen to the US, in her grief. The Queen composed one of the most beautiful personal messages I have yet heard written by anyone, which the US President read out loud in his speech at National Cathedral.

Of course, what did you expect? We are allies. We also shared some of the loss don't forget. And I assume you mean the speech QEII gave as opposed to wrote? I don't recall it. But then we do like our public outpourings of grief don't we - after all the BBC felt it "appropriate" to repeat the entire 6 hour funeral procession of Diana this summer to commemorate the 10 year anniversary. Hmmm.

Unfortunately, the British have a love-hate relationship with the US which is purely one-sided. The Americans often are bemused by the British -- but really, they don't spend nearly as much time thinking about us as we do them. And I think that's part of the problem.

They are now the senior, MUCH more important partner, and somewhere, that hurts.

And THAT ladies and gentleman, is the belief/attitude that all this resentment stems from in a nutshell. Do we Brits really give a stuff about our long-forgotten Great Empire that we feel hurt that our one-time colony is now a superpower and treats us with the affection yet occasional disdain of a pet spaniel? No, I think it's more irritation at being needlessly and constantly reminded of 'our place'. Did you ever work for a boss who constantly reminds you he earns more money than you? No doubt he was given an appropriately anatomical nickname.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Especially since Nixon, there is no President which has survived a second term in office without a challenge to his presidency at the LEGAL level, let alone at the popular, and media level. Even before Watergate, that was the case, but the attitude of respect towards the Office was very great. .

Now I don't claim to have any knowledge or interest in the history of US presidents (see? I'm as indifferent as you claim otherwise), but the only post-Watergate legal challenge I can recall was Clinton's cigar games and dodgy property scam. Even with Nixon (before my time), outrage at personal corruption and sexual proclivities are not the same things as say, challenging the foreign policy of an entire government.

But as was our attitude of respect great towards the incumbents at Number 10, too, before "bloody Wilson".

And now I really WILL have to stop reading. Your take on history is grossly inaccurate. Neville Chamberlain ring any bells?

Like Ry, I think the time has come for me to depart this thread, as I will only get more annoyed and frustrated. OT is such an effing drain sometimes, time to go back to talking to Ape about the design of his house, much more soothing for the soul

DBR

[ryyannon]

Eh?

Sure, it was probably a faux pas showing the program that day, but it's not that big a deal.

Holy Jesus H. Tap-Dancing Christ on a Surfboard! Repeat the same old saw enough and people will start accepting it as reality.

Did no one bother to click on the link to Canal Plus that I gave at the end of my post last week? If you had, you would have seen that the program about the murderous and rape-crazed G.I.s in France during WWII shown on Channel 3 was just a drop in the bucket, the tip of the iceberg, the top of the enormous turd that had been squeezed out onto French television screens during the period leading up to and through 9-11.

The point had been amply proved that none of this could have possibly been "a faux pas": as usual, the French media was falling all over itself doing what it does best - insulting America at a particularly sensitive moment.

Of course, it's too late now to see this amazing slap in the face if you didn't do it when I posted it - it's all been taken down since.

How effing convenient those who insist on repeating that this was just a small and nearly insignificant incident. As I posted then:

"Here's the link to what the French saw concerning 9/11 - a selection from all French channels: the 'Zapping' of 12/09, which is a roundup of images appearing the day before. For still more on the callousness of Condi Rice, the stupidity of Americans, and Hurricane Katrina as a metaphore for Bush's presidency, see the Zapping of 11/09. "

<a href="http://www.canalplus.fr/c-infos-documentai...-c-zapping.html" target="_blank">http://www.canalplus.fr/c-infos-documentai...-c-zapping.html</a>?

"Another major French cable channel - Plan

[narikaa]

Whingeing Septics & Slimey Frogs

Case closed

.