Guns, society, moral judgements...bring it on here!

[sfa437]

Nobody can deny the obvious numbers that show that gun controlled countries have lesser incidence of violent and self inflicted death, than non controlled countries.

I can and STRENUOUSLY deny this-

Germany 1934-1945: Hitler removes the right of firearm ownership from all ethnic minorities in occupied territory. 15+ million marched defenseless into death camps. Famous Quote: "For the first time in history a civilized nation has a complete system of firearm registration. Our streets shall be safer, our police more effective and the world shall follow our lead into the future."

Russia 1917-1990: Lenin and Stalin (and their successors) remove the right of firearms ownership from the populace. 30+ million marched defenseless to gulags and against walls in occasional purges.

Rwanda 1992-1995: Majority Hutu clans forcibly remove firearms from the minority Tutsis (along with moderate Hutus) and 800,000+ individuals are slaughtered.

China 1930-present: Communist leaders remove the right of firearms ownership from the population. 40+ million unarmed individuals murdered. Famous Quote: "Governmental power arises from the barrel of a gun"

Cambodia 1974-1980: Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot removes firearms from minority hill tribes and those deemed not politically reliable. 8+ million unarmed individuals killed by the government.

Zimbabwe 2000-present: Majority black rulers remove firearms ownership rights from minority whites. A quiet genocide begins to involve gang rape rape, torture and wholesale slaughter of entire families.

December 7 1993 New York: Colin Ferguson boards a LIRR train and kills 6 people and wounds 19. Mr. Ferguson states he committed this crime in New York because he knew nobody would have a firearm so he would not be shot himself.

United States 1990's-present: "Shall Issue" policies regarding concealed weapons become the norm rather than the exception. FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) show a 67% decrease in violent crimes in the following 12 months in states adopting such policies. These numbers have remained steady for the past 10 years.

In addition- I spend my time surrounded not just by guns but automatic weapons. Every single individual I work with is armed with no less than an automatic (NOT semi-automatic) rifle or submachinegun and a handgun. None of us has shot each other over the past 20 years.

I often wonder about the delusional mind of those who favor additional gun laws tacked onto the 35,000 existing ones. Does anyone honestly believe someone who wants to commit the ultimate crime, the single most destructive thing one human can do to another, will suddenly stop and say "I better not kill this guy because I might get in trouble for having a gun"? How can someone support the theory that a 120 pound woman should be forced to fistfight a 280 pound rapist? According to the FBI UCR for the past 20 years more people have been killed with hands and feet than with misnamed "assault weapons" (an assault weapon is one capable of both semi automatic and full automatic fire and have been essentially illegal since 1934). Perhaps we should ban hands and feet from the general public. Ater all, only a police officer or a soldier really needs hands and feet.

I for one will not look to big daddy government to come help my family and I. I have been in law enforcement for over 12 years and KNOW what response times are and what happens when the deputy is on the other end of the county from the call. I do not pass my obligation to stand in harms way when some tweaker kicks in my front door to someone else- I stand firm and end the threat to my life and safety- PERIOD.

Also, having an anscestor who was a Polish Jew and knowing my great grandfather was forced to wear a yellow star, was beaten and humiliated and marched into a [censored]ing oven without a chance for him, his family and his countrymen to defend themselves kind of gives me a strong opinion on the subject. NEVER AGAIN is the cry of Israel and it should be heeded- they know of what they speak.

Above all, to the sheep in the world, the sole reason you sleep secure in your bed is because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf.

[Richard Tracy]

[sssurfer]

If you feel this way, there is one germ you have to right to disinfect...

I would gladly do that if I had the power to disinfect all the other germs too in the same row.

Disinfecting only one germ, and one clear enough to recognise he is a germ, is pretty useless.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

Some facts comparing Canada (Gun Control) to the United States...

but in the NWT and Yukon the population is MUCH lower so of course its 1500% higher.

which is why i firmly believe that 100% of all statistics ARE [censored] ; )

[therebel]

I'll dumb down the argument a little with some simple thoughts on this subject.

-Regulating firearms does nothing. Criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns very easily on the black market.

-I believe guns should be available for protection and sport, it's our right. If the criminals can get them so should law abiding citizens.

-I'd rather be shot than carved up by a crack head with a knife.

-Any statistics of firearm deaths in the US vs. other countries is stupid. Violent crimes happen with or without them. Google stabbings and *insert random gun banned country*

[highoeyazmuhudee]

I'll dumb down the argument a little with some simple thoughts on this subject.

-Regulating firearms does nothing. Criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns very easily on the black market.

-I believe guns should be available for protection and sport, it's our right. If the criminals can get them so should law abiding citizens.

-I'd rather be shot than carved up by a crack head with a knife.

-Any statistics of firearm deaths in the US vs. other countries is stupid. Violent crimes happen with or without them. Google stabbings and *insert random gun banned country*

COULDNT have said it BETTER MYSELF : )

[Richard Tracy]

[Brightight]

The only purpose of guns is to kill people or animals. (The purpose of fast cars is to drive fast, not kill people. The number of people killed by fast cars is extremely small compared with the number of people killed by slow cars.) Target shooting is a red herring, you can target shoot with a BB gun, you don't need a fully automatic lethal weapon to shoot targets.

Killing of animals with guns is largely a sport and unnecessary from a food point of view except arguably in extremely remote areas. (I do not include people who use guns professionally, such as game rangers or the like)

Anyone who has killed another person, even in warfare, knows the effect that has on you, not to mention the person you killed.

Me, I no longer want to own or use guns.

A small point, drinking and driving has, by highlighting the waste of life this can cause, become socially unnaceptable, certainly in the UK. Smoking is going that way too. How many kids have to be killed in school shootings in the US before the owning of guns becomes socially unnaceptable and therefore not available to insane kids? This is the only way things will change in my opinion, you cannot really legislate against all these things.

[TeeJay]

The only purpose of guns is to kill people or animals. (The purpose of fast cars is to drive fast, not kill people. The number of people killed by fast cars is extremely small compared with the number of people killed by slow cars.) Target shooting is a red herring, you can target shoot with a BB gun, you don't need a fully automatic lethal weapon to shoot targets.

Killing of animals with guns is largely a sport and unnecessary from a food point of view except arguably in extremely remote areas. (I do not include people who use guns professionally, such as game rangers or the like)

Anyone who has killed another person, even in warfare, knows the effect that has on you, not to mention the person you killed.

Me, I no longer want to own or use guns.

A small point, drinking and driving has, by highlighting the waste of life this can cause, become socially unnaceptable, certainly in the UK. Smoking is going that way too. How many kids have to be killed in school shootings in the US before the owning of guns becomes socially unnaceptable and therefore not available to insane kids? This is the only way things will change in my opinion, you cannot really legislate against all these things.

I would respectfully disagree, as BB guns do not have the same range or capability (modes of fire and handling) as real steel. While target shooting is target shooting, to suggest that target shooting with a BB gun is the same as target shooting with real steel, is to suggest that drinking diet cola is the same as drinking regular, or that alcohol-free lager is like drinking regular lager, or that de-cafinated coffee is like regular coffee, etc etc. Yes, the basic principle is the same, but, it is still 'missing a key ingredient'. It's easier for you to say you no longer want to own or use guns, when you have had the ability to do so. Thanks to a mentally unhinged paedophile tipping public opinion, I've never had that privelage...

[millwright]

I can and STRENUOUSLY deny this-

Germany 1934-1945: Hitler removes the right of firearm ownership from all ethnic minorities in occupied territory. 15+ million marched defenseless into death camps. Famous Quote: "For the first time in history a civilized nation has a complete system of firearm registration. Our streets shall be safer, our police more effective and the world shall follow our lead into the future."

Russia 1917-1990: Lenin and Stalin (and their successors) remove the right of firearms ownership from the populace. 30+ million marched defenseless to gulags and against walls in occasional purges.

Rwanda 1992-1995: Majority Hutu clans forcibly remove firearms from the minority Tutsis (along with moderate Hutus) and 800,000+ individuals are slaughtered.

China 1930-present: Communist leaders remove the right of firearms ownership from the population. 40+ million unarmed individuals murdered. Famous Quote: "Governmental power arises from the barrel of a gun"

Cambodia 1974-1980: Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot removes firearms from minority hill tribes and those deemed not politically reliable. 8+ million unarmed individuals killed by the government.

Zimbabwe 2000-present: Majority black rulers remove firearms ownership rights from minority whites. A quiet genocide begins to involve gang rape rape, torture and wholesale slaughter of entire families.

December 7 1993 New York: Colin Ferguson boards a LIRR train and kills 6 people and wounds 19. Mr. Ferguson states he committed this crime in New York because he knew nobody would have a firearm so he would not be shot himself.

United States 1990's-present: "Shall Issue" policies regarding concealed weapons become the norm rather than the exception. FBI UCR (Uniform Crime Reports) show a 67% decrease in violent crimes in the following 12 months in states adopting such policies. These numbers have remained steady for the past 10 years.

In addition- I spend my time surrounded not just by guns but automatic weapons. Every single individual I work with is armed with no less than an automatic (NOT semi-automatic) rifle or submachinegun and a handgun. None of us has shot each other over the past 20 years.

I often wonder about the delusional mind of those who favor additional gun laws tacked onto the 35,000 existing ones. Does anyone honestly believe someone who wants to commit the ultimate crime, the single most destructive thing one human can do to another, will suddenly stop and say "I better not kill this guy because I might get in trouble for having a gun"? How can someone support the theory that a 120 pound woman should be forced to fistfight a 280 pound rapist? According to the FBI UCR for the past 20 years more people have been killed with hands and feet than with misnamed "assault weapons" (an assault weapon is one capable of both semi automatic and full automatic fire and have been essentially illegal since 1934). Perhaps we should ban hands and feet from the general public. Ater all, only a police officer or a soldier really needs hands and feet.

I for one will not look to big daddy government to come help my family and I. I have been in law enforcement for over 12 years and KNOW what response times are and what happens when the deputy is on the other end of the county from the call. I do not pass my obligation to stand in harms way when some tweaker kicks in my front door to someone else- I stand firm and end the threat to my life and safety- PERIOD.

Also, having an anscestor who was a Polish Jew and knowing my great grandfather was forced to wear a yellow star, was beaten and humiliated and marched into a [censored]ing oven without a chance for him, his family and his countrymen to defend themselves kind of gives me a strong opinion on the subject. NEVER AGAIN is the cry of Israel and it should be heeded- they know of what they speak.

Above all, to the sheep in the world, the sole reason you sleep secure in your bed is because rough men stand ready to do violence on your behalf.

Thank you for your service! I couldn't have said it better myself!

As an individual who HAS taken the life of another, I can promise you that it is NOT pleasant. But knowing what I know and having seen what I have seen.... I can promise you that those of you that are against guns know NOTHING of what true evil and violence is. If you did, you'd understand the concept of being able to defend yourself and why those of us that are pro-gun feel so strongly about it.

It's already been stated that you can kill someone with a car, a knife or even a razor. Why no cry for these things to be restricted?

I blame the media and the way it sensationalizes everything.

Someone said that war has caused the kids these days to be violent. I say bs. The fault there lies with the PARENTING.

I grew up shooting guns. I was raised with a shotgun and a rifle on my wall. I went to a HIGH SCHOOL THAT HAD A SHOOTING TEAM. In the ENTIRE HISTORY of that school there was not a SINGLE violent act committed with a gun. There were SEVERAL committed with baseball bats, hockey sticks and cooking knives.

Something to think about.

[Richard Tracy]

I can promise you that those of you that are against guns know NOTHING of what true evil and violence is.

An empty promise.

My people barely survived the worst events of violence perpetrated against any group in human history, 400 years of it and it still goes on, and it one reason I understand all too well that deadly power is a responsibility that should not be placed in the hands of your common mob.

As has been proven time & time again, on a daily basis, most people misuse the privilege.

Simple math comparing the numbers of legal gun owners who saved a life, even their own, to

the times when a gun was turned against a neighbor, school mates, family members, that car in

the next lane, or oneself, kills your argument as quick as a 45 slug to the head.

[TeeJay]

The fault lies with the licencing, vetting procedures and reviews. The problem is with the individuals themselves. Some people simply should never be allowed private ownership of firearms, and better vetting procedures (interviews under polygraph as to their firearms intentions, for example) would go a long way in solving the issue of people being killed or wounded by legally held weapons, held by people who are in anyway unsuitable to do so. However, we all know that prohibition does not work, as, those who seek to acquire a firearm for illicit purposes, are not going to apply for a gun licence, but use underworld contacts. Laws do nothing to stop those who ignore them. Equally, much more needs to be done to stop illegal gun-running to stem the flow of illegally held firearms. UK gun crime has only escalated since the ban on private ownership of handguns over .22 calibre was activated. That only proves the point that, for the most part, it is illegally held firearms causing the problem, or, when they are legally held, they are being held by people who the vetting procedures should have detected as unsuitable. Thomas Hamilton being a prime example of how such an 'unsuitable' person can 'slip through the cracks' of slack licencing practices.

Look at cars. People are not automatically given the right to drive cars when they hit a certain age, they have to prove that they are capable of doing so, and, it probably wouldn't hurt if an element of psychological profiling was used in driving exams either. It would certainly keep a few jackasses off our roads, making them safer places...

[archibald]

Guns? Do people still give a [censored] about guns?

[ArtM3]

I own a gun (H&K P7), NRA lifetime member and have a CCW permit...

guns aren't the problem, people, or more accurately, their thought process is...

having said that, it's too easy to get one...

to get a permit in PA takes 5 minutes...no training, no insurance, no nothing, just a simple background check...

I would have no problem yeilding mine if I could be certain (to a reasonable degree) that ALL would be confiscated...

that means most cops too...only the very experienced and psychologically vetted should carry...

a society without guns will be safer...but the issue in the US is the genie is out of the bottle, millions out there, undocumented or controlled...

no way to ever get a handle on it...

I'm surprised no one mentioned the 2nd ammendment, the right to bear arms to keep our government 'honest'...

or Switzerland, all kinds of guns (full military type) in every males closet...yet hardly any homicides...

the American mentality is as much the problem, as the guns...

[Luthier]

Shall I copy+paste my response in Bergie's thread? lol. Humans are pretty self destructive by nature. Guns are good, when they're in the right hands. The vast majority of humans are completely idiotic and totally disposable. Now I'm waiting for someone to try and argue otherwise. Come on, someone take a shot, say that intelligence is totally an issue of socioeconomic circumstance!

78% of Earth population has IQ lower than 65. It's statistical fact.

[Luthier]

Whatever dude. Simply put, put one gun in a room full of a hundred people and I guarantee you that at some point in time somebody is gonna get shot. I there is no gun in the room, what would the likelihood be?

Then somebody will use fork. Fork can kill too.

Now I'm done,..... before you shoot me

No... I'll better fork you.

[Luthier]

Yet again the obsession with guns never ceases to amaze me. Just for the hell of it I'd like to add a couple of things to the debate.

There are plenty of people in the UK with guns. I think what makes a difference is that guns are not so easy to get hold of. I am not an expert on the subject but I know you have paperwork to do. Gun cabinets have to be inspected etc etc. As a consequence there are far less guns in circulation in the UK and the link between that and the (relatively) low death rate by firearms cannot be denied. I don't think any sane person cannot therefore conclude that the fewer guns there are in circulation in a society the fewer deaths by guns you will have. As an ardent Brit basher (I feel I have the right to be as I am one) I have to admit that it is one of our greatest achievements that our police do not routinely carry guns.

It is the ease of access to guns that is the problem.

We have all I'm sure experienced moments when interacting with other human beings that arguments have ensued and tempers have been lost. This is normal. When you throw easily available (and portable) lethal weapons into that equation the result is well... potentially lethal. (Not rocket science is it).

Therefore my argument is a simple one. If you make guns more difficult to get hold of, less people will die by them. I would actually argue that less people would die overall.

As for countries where there are lots of guns in circulation? I'm sorry but you are already f****d. You can not wind the clock back. But when others point out that this availability is not necessarily the best course of action a society may have chosen don't get all defensive about it, just admit that it was a mistake, one that can't be helped, one that happened for a myriad of reasons and smile sweetly and go about your business which preferably does not include blowing your neighbours brains out because his dog pooped on your lawn.

Wrong. In USA you can't carry gun on the streets or even on your backyard to blow your neighbor brain out. You should get a special license to carry consealed weapon, and it's practically impossible to get one. But we do have right to keep the guns AT HOME, for protection.

So, if bad guys will try to break my door at 3am - they'll meet my Beretta first, and I'll not hesitate to pull the trigger 15 times. Such a trash doesn'r deserve to live. PERIOD.Now, blame me for saving the lives of my family.

[alphakazi]

[Luthier]

Great comment, kazi!!!

Great girl too...

[Johnkaz]

One argument that amazes me, it's the stock pro gun chant. "GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE" . My answer to that is if we take people and guns away from each other, then that cannot possibly happen. In actual fact who does most of the the damage, Psycho's, criminals, people high on drugs or booze, and persons of low intellegence. I do not know, but between that group they own a great many firearms. Does any gun owning society demand a psychological profile or an IQ test prior to issuing a licence?

Johnkaz.

[ArtM3]

Wrong. In USA you can't carry gun on the streets or even on your backyard to blow your neighbor brain out. You should get a special license to carry consealed weapon, and it's practically impossible to get one. But we do have right to keep the guns AT HOME, for protection.

So, if bad guys will try to break my door at 3am - they'll meet my Beretta first, and I'll not hesitate to pull the trigger 15 times. Such a trash doesn'r deserve to live. PERIOD.Now, blame me for saving the lives of my family.

almost all states now have CCW laws...

in PA you can get a permit in 5 minutes...no training, nothing, just a clean record...

in Vermont anyone can carry anywhere with no license...

the laws are 'shall issue', meaning they have to give you a permit unless they can prove you shouldn't have one...

in almost every state you can carry on your property with no permit...

most allow non-concealed carry without a permit

[alphakazi]

One argument that amazes me, it's the stock pro gun chant. "GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE. PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE" . My answer to that is if we take people and guns away from each other, then that cannot possibly happen. In actual fact who does most of the the damage, Psycho's, criminals, people high on drugs or booze, and persons of low intellegence (intelligence ). I do not know, but between that group they own a great many firearms. Does any gun owning society demand a psychological profile or an IQ test prior to issuing a licence?

Johnkaz.

well, you'd have to take people away from things like knives or even cars for that matter (which kill much more) - taking away rights is not an answer - why should I pay for dumb criminals? Do you think taking all guns away from law-abiding citizens will somehow stop criminals from getting them - they couldn't care less if guns are illegal

Here in Canada you have to jump through hoops to get a gun especially restricted guns like pistols or "assault" type guns - they contacted my x girlfriends and I had a Police interview, etc. which I'm totally for but just don't take any rights away from me or I'll KILL SOMEONE

ok, that last part was a joke - I want to spell it out clearly so the gun lobbyists don't start jumping

[Fidestro]

[alphakazi]

The Asian would rep them quick!

[JohnG]

Wouldn't be RWG1 without a gun control thread!