1665 Double-Red Dial

[freddy333]

[yellomen]

Nice dial... like the flat A's, font and print like impressive and the datwindow looks the right size. Only the red seems slightly off... But altogether a nice dial!!

[takashi]

Saw it on eBay sometimes back. Winner paid 60USD for it.

[freddy333]

Fake, but a very nice example - where and how much?

$199 from here.

[freddy333]

Nice dial... like the flat A's, font and print like impressive and the datwindow looks the right size. Only the red seems slightly off... But altogether a nice dial!!

That is what I think too. They got the crown, date window & lower 5 lines of printing almost dead-on (except for the red color, which could have been a shade darker, but still closer than the MBW). The dial background texture & color also look correct for this vintage. And unlike the NDtrading dials, the index markers at 6 & 9 are the correct width. I would have preferred a more whitish lume color, but I could live with it as is.

All in all, I think this is a huge step forward. Not perfect by any means, but the 1st redial or aftermarket dial I have seen that could almost fool me or pass as gen upon close examination if I saw it in a watch that otherwise looked gen.

The question now is whether to chop the feet & fit it to my 2846, or go all-out & get a 1570 ($1,200 or so) and do it up right?

[DuDro]

Hey freddy...Here are some reference photos for comparison...

Version I: (Note - the red letters are REALLY faded)

Version II:

Version III:

Version IV:

Version V:

Hope this helps...

[freddy333]

Hey freddy...Here are some reference photos for comparison...

Hope this helps...

Thanks DuDro. Your pics did not display for some reason, but I am very familiar with the pics on doubleredseadweller (I use those watches as references for my mods). But I also have gigabytes of Double-Red gens archived on my hard drive & there are about a dozen or more dial variations for these. Different crowns, different fonts, different colors, different font layouts, slightly different Mercedes symbols on the hour hand, etc. So there is a bit of latitude here that I think this dial could reasonably fit into. I have matched just about everything on this dial to gens with the exception of the slightly uneven spacing of a couple of the words (look at the spacing of 'LEX' in ROLEX or the word DATE). That is really the only thing on this dial I can see that would make me question its legitimacy if I saw it in the wild (and in an otherwise gen-looking case). But I would like to get more input before I chop anyone's feet or buy another (expensive) movement.

[tmg]

Nice find Freddy, it looks pretty darn good! The photos also seems to have some harsh lighting so I wonder if the red print is better in person???

[freddy333]

Nice find Freddy, it looks pretty darn good! The photos also seems to have some harsh lighting so I wonder if the red print is better in person???

My thoughts exactly. I am banking on that being the case. But as it is, I think its positives outrank its negatives & by a comfortable margin.

[mezzanine]

Interesting thread- it looks like the seller is straight up about his other dials being re-dials. At $200, the DRSD dial looks like his best offering after giving his red sub dials a quick glance.

It's definitely way better than an MBW dial. The spacing of the swiss > 25 is better on this dial, as opposed to the MBW dial which hugs the index markers too closely. The "Rolex" is pretty well done to me...the 'x' is not drunken (another MBW flaw), and the E is done well, which is another difficult thing for the re-dialers and rep makers to do properly. Where it looks like it's still weak to me is the 'O' and the 'R', but I'm not an expert on this stuff. The 'O' is very hard to get right.

The lower half fonts look good. What I notice with the gen dials is that the fonts have a crispness that the re-dials have a hard time getting right. They got the date window shape right.

This is exactly the type of solution that I think we should start to look harder at. This dial is WAY better than the MBW dials. If we're willing to drop $100+ on gen endlinks for a bracelet, then why not spend $200 on the most significant single part of the watch?

When you consider what people spend to have their MBW dials 'vintagized' anyways, it makes little sense to me why one wouldn't just go this route.

I will consider adding another piece to my collection if dials like this can be found for a good price more consistently. It's the red dials that I've found they seem to have such a hard time with. If those started to get better, it would be hard to ignore the temptation to get one. Sort of like what Ptolomeo did with his red 1680 recently.

[freddy333]

Mezz -- I agree with you on all points. The thing that has kept me from doing much more on my Double-Red are the limitations & basic problems inherent with the MBW dial. The line about trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear comes to mind here. No matter how much or how well you mod the MBW dial, the underlying problems remain (and work against you).

Obviously, the seller of this dial did not make a one-off, so I am sure we will soon be seeing more of these dials either from the same seller or the usual other sources. I did check NDtrading's site to see if its one of theirs, but they are still showing the same dial I got previously which, although well done, has 4 fairly serious flaws (and some smaller ones) that prohibit it from serious consideration in my book (ranked in order of importance)

1. 6 & 9 index markers too narrow
   
2. crown too narrow
   
3. slightly incorrect layout of lower 5 lines (it is not that far off, but I cannot match this exact layout to any gen)
   
4. uneven spacing on words like 'CH RONOMETER' (oddly, I have seen this same spacing on a number of other redials, so they must be using the NDtrading redial as their reference, which explains alot about why there are so many bad redials hanging around)
   

(This is the NDtrading dial, not the one under consideration & pictured at the top of the thread)

[mezzanine]

Freddy, we're on the same page with regard to the dial issues of the MBW. It's ironic, because you have some true artists who are great at doing vintage lume work and aging the dial- and you end up with a tremendous looking dial. That's the thing- the age effects are awesome, but when you actually look at the dial closely, it has serious flaws. I don't think a lot of people are very concerned about the smaller imperfections....or they haven't seen a genuine dial or a re-dial of this quality. The patina of the genuine dials are hard to get right.

If you look at the dial you linked to, the patina is really flat and doesn't show the type of macro level variation in texture that you see with the gens.

You're right, that crown is too thin. I still think it's better than the MBW coronet, which is unrefined and looks poorly defined. It's hard to say because there is so much variation.

I might like 'O' on this dial better than the one on the original dial in question. The 'Rolex' spacing on this seems wrong to me...too condensed together. The font below the 'Rolex' is wrong, as far as I can tell, but again, I could be wrong.

The dial itself looks to me like a rep dial, rather than a good re-dial. It has the manufactured type of features of a generic dial finish/texture as well as the classic red replica colour/font that is used on all of the vintages...even though it's NDtrading. The red is sort of a blood-red put straight onto the black dial background. The gen red looks like a cherry red paint, and it looks almost like they do a layer of white as a base coat before the red gets applied.

The bottom couple of lines look like the right font to me, but the spacing is questionable.

If you get a chance to see a gen dial, and I'm assuming this applies to the older DRSD dials (which is not necessarily a fair assumption), but the quality of the print on the dials is really high. It's hard for the rep makers to get that right, as well as they might do some of the more tactile details like fonts and colours, but getting the fineness of detail that the genuines have is practically difficult...as I think Rolex intended it to be.

[docblackrock]

Very nice Freddy. Yep tough call on whether to perform a feet-ectomy or pony up for a c.1570. Reminded me I too have a much improved DRSD redial on the way, will post pics when it's ready.

[mezzanine]

Very nice Freddy. Yep tough call on whether to perform a feet-ectomy or pony up for a c.1570. Reminded me I too have a much improved DRSD redial on the way, will post pics when it's ready.

Do the feet-ectomy, I don't think it's worth it to spring for the c.1570 for a rep, even if it's got a nicer dial, etc...maybe with one of your faves, but to each his own. Hopefully there will be some new work done on a silver datewheel that would conceivably be available for the ETA's....

You'll be very happy to have the re-dial coming in...I'm encouraged that there's a movement in this direction, it seems. Especially with the reds, there's no other real alternative if you want a believable one...

[freddy333]

Mezz -- Aside from the notable errors it contains, the NDtrading dial is VERY well done. In fact, I was quite surprised when it arrived & I was able to view it through a loupe. The printing quality is quite passable for a gen. If only they had put as much effort into researching what was supposed to be printed on the dial as they did in how they applied that printing. It was so well done that I had quite a bit of a time deciding whether to replace my MBW for the NDtrading dial. But, in the end, I think either Avitt or Alligoat convinced me (correctly, with hindsight) that the MBWs sins were the lesser of the two when you consider the overall impression each dial leaves. And I will know better once the new dial arrives & I can view it through a loupe. If the printing quality is similar to the NDtrading dial (and it looks that way in the pictures), it will definitely be replacing the MBW. I am still not sure about whether to clip its feet though. Maybe I will place a few low bids for 1570s over the next week or 2 & see if I get lucky. If so, I will go that route. Otherwise, I think the new dial with the old 2846 will certainly provide a nice improvement.

[freddy333]

Very nice Freddy. Yep tough call on whether to perform a feet-ectomy or pony up for a c.1570. Reminded me I too have a much improved DRSD redial on the way, will post pics when it's ready.

Thanks, Doc. Care to provide any details about your 'improved' dial? Is it something new like the one under discussion here or a mod of an existing MBW or other known dial?

[mezzanine]

Mezz -- Aside from the notable errors it contains, the NDtrading dial is VERY well done. In fact, I was quite surprised when it arrived & I was able to view it through a loupe. The printing quality is quite passable for a gen. If only they had put as much effort into researching what was supposed to be printed on the dial as they did in how they applied that printing. It was so well done that I had quite a bit of a time deciding whether to replace my MBW for the NDtrading dial. But, in the end, I think either Avitt or Alligoat convinced me (correctly, with hindsight) that the MBWs sins were the lesser of the two when you consider the overall impression each dial leaves. And I will know better once the new dial arrives & I can view it through a loupe. If the printing quality is similar to the NDtrading dial (and it looks that way in the pictures), it will definitely be replacing the MBW. I am still not sure about whether to clip its feet though. Maybe I will place a few low bids for 1570s over the next week or 2 & see if I get lucky. If so, I will go that route. Otherwise, I think the new dial with the old 2846 will certainly provide a nice improvement.

What did you mean when you said that you weren't sure if you would replace the MBW dial for the NDtrading one? Because I would've assumed that the NDtrading dial would've been far better than the MBW dial. I am guessing I haven't been giving the MBW dials their proper respect.

I think I have made the mistake on occasion of assuming that the reps of older dials like the DRSD should be similar to dials that were produced close to 20 years later...and as a result, assuming that the rep dials are of poor quality, when in reality they're accurate reflections of the earlier, less finished looking because they were made using older technology at the time, etc...

[alligoat]

freddy, you might want to check justasgood's post about the new case he's looking at for his 5512 and Rolex movement. He had quite a few problems fitting the 1570 into the MBW 5513 case, shimming, breaking crowns...

But it might be the fact that it's a different movement, I think (no date).

I don't know how easy it is to fit a 1575 into an MBW DRSD case. The last one I remember was torresp's w/ a J&W case. I do recall a few mods to the case are necessary if you're using an MBW case.

The dial looks nice but I wouldn't hesitate to cut the feet and put it in the MBW case w/ the 2846. Unless you're on a mission to create a franken. Heck, it's only money!

[freddy333]

What did you mean when you said that you weren't sure if you would replace the MBW dial for the NDtrading one? Because I would've assumed that the NDtrading dial would've been far better than the MBW dial. I am guessing I haven't been giving the MBW dials their proper respect.

The printing quality of the NDtrading dial is far better than the MBW, but the MBW ultimately won the battle because even though its printing was of poorer quality (to view the word 'ROLEX' an MBW dial through a loupe will make you sick) its overall appearance was closer to a gen. Basically, it came down to which was less noticeable -- the NDtrading's too narrow index markers & crown, or the MBW's poorer overall printing. With some reservations, I decided to stick with the MBW and continue to search for a better dial alternative that I could live with. I believe this new dial is that better alternative.

I think I have made the mistake on occasion of assuming that the reps of older dials like the DRSD should be similar to dials that were produced close to 20 years later...and as a result, assuming that the rep dials are of poor quality, when in reality they're accurate reflections of the earlier, less finished looking because they were made using older technology at the time, etc...

While Rolex obviously did not have access to laser-quality printing equipment in the 70s & early 80s, their dials were printed with good quality paint and, in most cases, paint that was applied fairly thickly, at least in contrast to the paint & painting techniques applied to MBWs & most other rep or repainted dials.

This Daytona 116520 hand comparison will give you an idea of the type of quality differences I see between paints used on reps/repaints & gens. Ignore the fact that the gen hand (left) is the wider (newer) version & the rep hand (right) is the original narrower version

Note the thickness, glossiness & quality of application of paint on the gen vs the thin, matte & poorly applied paint on the rep. Now these are both modern parts, but the differences in material & application quality you see here are similar to what I see (through a loupe) when comparing a vintage gen dial (in good condition) with most reps/repaints. The paint & application quality on the NDtrading dial was so much more like what you see on a gen that I had to could not help but to take that into account when I was comparing it to my MBW. But, like I said, in the end, even though the NDtrading dial was a much better quality, it just had too many obvious flaws in its execution, which left the MBW looking like the better option. But it was a tough call that I hope will be much easier if this new dial is of NDtrading quality.

Does that make more sense?

[freddy333]

freddy, you might want to check justasgood's post about the new case he's looking at for his 5512 and Rolex movement. He had quite a few problems fitting the 1570 into the MBW 5513 case, shimming, breaking crowns...

But it might be the fact that it's a different movement, I think (no date).

I don't know how easy it is to fit a 1575 into an MBW DRSD case. The last one I remember was torresp's w/ a J&W case. I do recall a few mods to the case are necessary if you're using an MBW case.

The dial looks nice but I wouldn't hesitate to cut the feet and put it in the MBW case w/ the 2846. Unless you're on a mission to create a franken. Heck, it's only money!

hahaha Only money..........

Someone (I cannot remember who -- KKS maybe???????) managed to get a 1575 into an MBW DRSD case without any serious mods required other than to carve out the semi-circular area on the inside of the case (nearly opposite from the crown as on the gen cases) to fit the 1575's locking screw. I wish I could find that original thread, but I remember he said it went in without any serious problems & everything lined up just as it should. I would expect that anyway since the MBW case is known for its dimensional accuracy, which is why it accepts so many gen parts without modification.

But I am still undecided as to whether or not to upgrade the movement. On the one hand, if the dial looks as good (or better, as was the case with the NDtrading dial) when I receive it as it does in the pictures, it may be hard not to go all the way with this one. But on the other hand, the new dial is not perfect & the DRSD is not a grail watch for me (even though I have come to appreciate it much more as its appearance has improved with each successive mod). But my decision-making is definitely being affected by all of the comments from you guys. So please keep them coming.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Well, it seems I have an MBW DRSD on its way. I think I will order one of these dials tomorrow. Am I correct in thinking that chopping the feet off and attaching to the eta movement shouldn't be too big a deal for a watch tech?

[freddy333]

Well, it seems I have an MBW DRSD on its way. I think I will order one of these dials tomorrow. Am I correct in thinking that chopping the feet off and attaching to the eta movement shouldn't be too big a deal for a watch tech?

No, not a big deal, but it does require time & patience (not to mention attention to detail if you want to be sure the dial appears straight in the case with the reposition feet), and if you are paying a watchmaker to do the work you have to take that into account.

[docblackrock]

Thanks, Doc. Care to provide any details about your 'improved' dial? Is it something new like the one under discussion here or a mod of an existing MBW or other known dial?

Custom dialmaker, you'll know him I'm sure Like you, I finally got hacked off with that fly in the ointment, turd in the shallow end etc. namely the MBW dial. So a quick but very specific commission later, and the job is in process. First try was rejected at his end, but second attempt ready in a few weeks, hopefully much better. The NDT trading dial was provided as a template but with the obvious errors pointed out, so we'll see. As for the red text, I actually prefer/specified a nice almost-pinkish tone, in keeping with the early dials on which red was painted over the white text, fading nicely with time.

[mezzanine]

Freddy, thanks for the explanation of some of the differences you've encountered between the re-dials and the gens. I've got a dial that was done by the guy at classicwatchparts (Ken?) and a genuine dial, and have until sometime late this morning a MBW dial with which to compare. This is a bad shot with which to judge fonts and such, but I don't have many dial shots of the SD:

The 'superlative chronometer' font might be off, as in too western, but I've seen two different matte triple-6 dials, the first looked like the conventional font, the second looked closer to the one on mine, although still less pronounced I think.

Well, it seems I have an MBW DRSD on its way. I think I will order one of these dials tomorrow. Am I correct in thinking that chopping the feet off and attaching to the eta movement shouldn't be too big a deal for a watch tech?

I think you'd be happy with the stock dial- but in my mind it depends on whether you would do the aging and lume work on the rep dial. If you would, then I would keep the stock MBW. If you would source it out to someone like The Zigmeister, then I would really give strong consideration to a re-dial of this quality. When you look at the cost comparison, as long as you wouldn't need to do much to the dial (other than shave it down a bit for install) there isn't a whole lot of difference, and yet the difference in quality is significant.

Personally, I would absolutely get the re-dial- having owned both gen, re-dials, and full out rep dials. I believe that's by far the best value and solution with these red dial vintages. I only recently got into the vintage rollies, and sometimes that naivety can be beneficial in some sense because you're not pre-conditioned about the flaws, etc.. with the various watches. The one thing I concluded relatively quickly was that the dial was the most significant part in being judged for authenticity for most people, and that the MBW dials are not the best.

The thing is, the work that is done on these dials makes them every bit as impressive as the gen dial, when it comes to lume and age effects. I think that the great mod work done on them diverts attention away from the 'base' that's been worked on. It also depends on pet peeves. For me, the red print on the reps is not that convincing. With the DRSD, it's not that bad, because it's such a rare watch. With the red 1680 I feel it's relatively glaring.

[freddy333]

The 'superlative chronometer' font might be off, as in too western, but I've seen two different matte triple-6 dials, the first looked like the conventional font, the second looked closer to the one on mine, although still less pronounced I think.

Mezz -- I think the font is too serifed, too 'Western/Wild West'. At least I do not have any pictures of any gen dials with a similar font. And I think the crown suffers the same problem as NDtrading's DRSD dial -- too narrow.

I am eager to see how Doc's dial turns out. But after my dealings with NDtrading (I once gave them a list of explicit (and well illustrated) instructions to correct a couple of their existing dials & got a dial with a different set of problems that did not exist on the earlier design), I have come to the conclusion that the only way to get one of these vintage dials done right is to either make it yourself or have it made by a local professional, who will allow you to participate directly in the design/manufacturing process. With Asian dial makers, it always seems like a case of 2 steps forward (more or less) & 1 step backward. The consistency of their inconsistency continues to beg the question of whether the rep makers have agreed not to produce any truly perfect replicas in exchange for a mostly hands-off policy by the gen companies lawyers. More & more, that is the only explanation that makes logical sense to me.