RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Handwinding an automatic has been discussed in detail. Short version, it's damaging to the movement unless you wind very slowly, and only just enough to give the movement a bit of a charge. All movements are prone to damage, some more than others. The 7750 is at risk and here's what happens... To recap, on a 7750 if it's not running, give it a couple of turns with the crown, nice and slow, swirl the watch in your palm to get it running, put it on and leave it alone and let the autowinder do it's job. IF you note any resistance or find it hard to handwind, STOP, or your going to damage the movement. This type of damage is not covered by my warranty. The rotor can't cause this type of damage, it doesn't turn fast enough, or with enough force to cause this damage. Note the missing teeth. Another view, you can see all the teeth that have been ground down. What happens to the grinding gear...it makes a mess all over... New gear compared to the old damaged one. I cleaned up the mess, the watch was reassembled, and is working fine. Handwind with CAUTION and at your own risk. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Yikes, that's informative. Glad I don't handwind my automatics. Must have had a good coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Great info. I've got lots of chrono's and am reluctant to wind them for more than a few turns. Past experience showed that eventually the winding started slipping. So now you've given great advice that explains it. Question? how does this affect the chrono's from working. Does the watch need a lot of winding "charge" to have them work? Thanks again, The Zigmeister. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsmith11 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 So The Zigmeister when you don't wear the watch for a couple days what do you suggest, kind of shake it then put it on and let the auto wind do its work?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpdtom Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Man, am I glad that I joined this site today ! I've been handwinding all my watches every day now for a while. It's been my morning routine. Mostly ETA 2824-2 but also two 7750s . I probably already damaged them, but from now on I'll wind and set only when I'm going to wear them. Thanks...Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capice Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Tnx for the tip Rob, I probably damaged 1 or 2 by now but you saved the rest of my collection Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMC8404 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Wish I had read this before I destoyed my 2836-2 in my TT Rolex Sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Question? how does this affect the chrono's from working. Does the watch need a lot of winding "charge" to have them work? The state of wind does not affect the chrono functions. As far as I am concerned, chrono ON or OFF, makes no difference to the movement, in other words engaging the chrono simply tilts the tilting pinion into the center seconds gear, which has no resistance, and disengages the 12 hour wheel, which unloads the mainspring somewhat. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 So Ziggy when you don't wear the watch for a couple days what do you suggest, kind of shake it then put it on and let the auto wind do its work?? Thanks! I would wind the watch a few turns, nice and slow, give it a swirl to get the balance in motion, set the time, and put the watch on. Asian or Swiss, the same mechanical principles apply, handwind at your own risk, it makes no difference to me personally what anyone does, but I see the damage that is caused by handwinding quite often. The movement in question was freshly serviced a while back, clean, oiled, etc...it's not the fact it's Asian that is the problem, it's hand winding. Due to the gear up effect from the crown to the rotor, any slight resistance in the click wheel will cause enough back pressure to be felt on the gears that they can be damaged by handwinding. The gears are only made of Brass, which is not much harder than lead... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 With almost no mainspring tension at all, an almost unwound 7750 will most likely stop when a running Chrono shifts the minute. Very true, but the resistance is only for about 2 seconds as the center wheel moves the 30 minute gear to the next notch. It's not a constant drag on the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 IF you note any resistance or find it hard to handwind, STOP, or your going to damage the movement. Note the missing teeth. I just replaced the same gear (with the same problem) in a friend's watch yesterday (he has been warned many times NOT to force the crown if it becomes difficult to turn). So I think Ziggy's warning bears repeating -- IF you note any resistance or find it hard to handwind, STOP, or your going to damage the movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Well, I would say this applies to the poor material in Asian 7750's. On real Swiss 7750's you don't have a risk if everything is lubed properly. The automatic winding clutch gear is disengagig on hand wind and there is no stress on the upper gears. Genuine watch manufacturers endorse you to fully wind the watch by hand (around 40 turns of the crown) I agree. This is an area that I partially disagree with Ziggy on. As long as the watch is in good condition & you wind gently (and slowly), manual winding should not damage anything. I have a couple of A7750s that have been manually wound at least weekly (1 of these is my secs at 6 Daytona) for the past few years without any ill effects -- the gears are clean with no visibly worn teeth & the auto-wind module winds the mainspring without any problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 I would wind the watch a few turns, nice and slow, give it a swirl to get the balance in motion, set the time, and put the watch on. Ziggy -- the problem with this approach is that the auto-winder may not fully charge the mainspring if the owner happens to be a desk jockey (like me). I do not think that tapping on a keyboard for most of the day provides a sufficient amount of movement, which is why some of our watches need a bit of supplemental assistance in the form of hand-winding. But, in my case at least, I know that my winding gears are properly lubed, which may not be the case for other manual winders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onzenuub Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 The Zigmeister, can you place this on the orther boards as well? Great info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Ziggy -- the problem with this approach is that the auto-winder may not fully charge the mainspring if the owner happens to be a desk jockey (like me). I do not think that tapping on a keyboard for most of the day provides a sufficient amount of movement, which is why some of our watches need a bit of supplemental assistance in the form of hand-winding. But, in my case at least, I know that my winding gears are properly lubed, which may not be the case for other manual winders. Yes I agree, if you don't move around a lot, it can be a problem getting a full good wind. The biggest issue with the Asian 7750's is that the click wheels can and are sticky and prone to causing friction and drag. I have tried to eliminate this problem when I service the A7750's by cleaning the click wheel in the Ultrasonic machine and then I soak it in One-Dip for half an hour or more. This seems to get it cleaned and free and so far after this treatment, I have not had any reported problems. If you pay attention to the movement and have a "feel" for what is normal and abnormal resistance while hand-winding, all of these problems can be avoided. I hand wind my own 25 or so turns, but I know that the click is freewheeling as I do it, I know the movement is serviced and the click wheel is clean. If I start to feel even the slightest resistance, I also know to find out what the problem is, before damage happens. @ repaustria I agree that the drag from the minute gear can stop the movement, but only when the power is almost all gone, under normal operations it's not a problem. If I monitor the movement on the analyzer, I don't even notice any difference in the printout with the chrono ON, even when it ticks the minute over, there is no difference noted. You know as well as I do, how fast the click wheel spins when you handwind, this is never a good thing, so I am not sure why they recommend handwinding, certainly it serves a purpose to handwind when needed, but there is always a real risk of damage, especially if your not paying attention to what the movement is telling you. I have also seen some stripped and damaged stuff, that I could only do with pliers, not my bare hands...maybe Quartz does have a place in the watchworld... RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Ziggy, can you place this on the orther boards as well? Great info. I would if I was a member...but I am not, sorry. Did you want to cut and past it, and credit me for the info, that's ok with me. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 The biggest issue with the Asian 7750's is that the click wheels can and are sticky and prone to causing friction and drag. I have tried to eliminate this problem when I service the A7750's by cleaning the click wheel in the Ultrasonic machine and then I soak it in One-Dip for half an hour or more. This seems to get it cleaned and free and so far after this treatment, I have not had any reported problems. What kind of solution are you using in the ultrasonic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onzenuub Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 I would if I was a member...but I am not, sorry. Did you want to cut and past it, and credit me for the info, that's ok with me. RG Oke, will do, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 Excellent Topic Rob! Thanks again for all informative info! This should be pinned in my opinion.. Another masterpiece of imfo from Zig... -MM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onzenuub Posted February 28, 2008 Report Share Posted February 28, 2008 I would if I was a member...but I am not, sorry. Did you want to cut and past it, and credit me for the info, that's ok with me. RG Posted your topic already on two boards, crediting The Zigmeisterzumba from Canada. R.W.G. and R.W.I. and will place it on Repgeek as well. Thanks again for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 What kind of solution are you using in the ultrasonic? L&R 111 in the cleaner beaker, and L&R # 003 in the first and second rinse beakers. RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 Rob, I agree. But let me add - measuring various genuine watches with 7750's 500-4000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted February 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 Posted your topic already on two boards, crediting Ziggyzumba from Canada. R.W.G. and R.W.I. and will place it on Repgeek as well. Thanks again for this one. Well, I just signed on to RWI and had a read of the post...sigh...why even bother with that place. Now I know why I never wanted or will bother to post on that board. Can you do me a favor please, and edit and delete my post from RWI, I thought it would prove somewhat useful, but when I see Phil (Klink) (who I have known for over 4 years), up to his old tricks, and Watchbuff up to his, I really have no interest in offering anything to these people. So if you can simply edit and delete my post, I would appreciate it. These people don't like me, and that's perfectly fine by me, I don't like them either. If the post was credited to anyone but me, it would not get any of the responses from these folks, you should have said RBJ was the author... Thank you. RG EDIT to add. On RWG we don't always agree, and that is normal and needed. But the difference between RWG and what I have read on RWI is simple, we are like adults here (most of the time, me included) and discus things in detail for everyone's benefit, but RWI seems to have a childish attitude about it, no doubt mainly due to the fact I wrote the topic. Best to leave them to their own experts like RBJ and Watchbuff... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodwc Posted February 29, 2008 Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 So , i`ts set in stone for me, another convert. Thanks for the info. and the time to share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted February 29, 2008 Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 DOH The Zigmeister's info is the best - thanks man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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