RWG Technical Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 New PAM Crown review and comments Been busy at the bench since I took a hiatus from the forums. I got this new crown in the other day for installation. I thought it appropriate to post this now, not in September when I come back from holidays…I hope you enjoy the review… This is the new crown provided by member PAM(? Plse correct me on the board name), I am not sure what version this one is (the first batch were bad?) as I remember some problems with the first run. This is the 2.0mm one… Here are some general views, initial inspection is positive, machining is nice and well done, and the fit on the case is good, meaning it actually fits the hole in the case, and the case tube also. Not all cases are identical, so I hope this crown will be generic enough in the dimensions that it will be usable on all models without modifications. So here it is on the stem side, Here is a closer view of the stem insert part, note that they only tapped about 1/3 or so of the stem hole, about 3 threads worth…it would have been much better to use a bottoming tap and go all the way down to the end of the hole. The swarf (left over metal shavings) from the tapping is all jammed up in the bottom of the hole, you can get it out with a small pin, I recommend that you remove these metal shavings as soon as you get the crown to minimize the risk of a piece falling into the movement and ruining your day… Here is the new crown inserted into the case to check the fit, so far so good, it actually fits fine… Side by side comparison of the new and the original one. The new one is at the top. So far it’s looking like the crown will be a workable upgrade, but this view shows an area of possible concern, note the almost twice as deep recess in the outer part of the crown…this will be a problem as you will see… As I suspected, this recess is going to be a no-go as far as using the crown. The Crown Guard Lever sits against the Crown, and this pressure is what holds the lever in place and prevents it from flopping around. If the new crown is twice as deep in recess compared to the old one, where does this leave the CG Lever when it’s in the closed position….not touching the crown is where it leaves it… The only way to correct this problem is to get a new CG that has not been cut down and hope it’s long enough to touch the new crown… If you want to see what your up against in missing depth, this view is of the new crown installed, and pulled away from the case, until it just touches the CG lever…this is the amount of space you have to compensate for…new CG is the only fix… I also noted that the crown stem hole is drilled crooked, have a look at these pics and you can see it… It’s noticeable in person when you spin it on the stem, and really noticeable when the crown is installed in the case, not only visually but physically when you turn the crown and try and wind the watch…I tried to capture the angle in the pics… So it seems as if this one is not going to work…no idea on what version this one is and if the latest versions have corrected these defects. However if the recessed crown head depth on all versions are the same as this one, then you have to buy a new CG along with the crown if your going to do this upgrade. I can’t say if a new CG and lever would actually fix this problem, as I don’t have one to try out. Although we seem to think that these “Reps” are “cheaply” made, this example and the others where custom parts are trying to be made, only goes to show that there is a lot of skill, research, and close tolerances needed on these replacement parts if they are going to work…not to mention testing and actually trying them out and making sure that they work – before offering them to the members here… In this case, this doesn’t work…not without a new CG anyway… Hope your summer is going well, mine is great… Thanks for reading, see you in September (unless of course I end up with another new item to review…) Oh, and the fellow who owns this watch, and the Breitling and the Rollie (movement issue), I'll be emailing you tonight to give you an update on the work, (Briet is still running within a minute a day or better...) RG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Thanks for the (again) great review Rob... Goodness gracious... I hope this ain't what I ordered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jraines87 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Great review as usual Ziggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Thanks The Zigmeister for thr review tried for weeks to buy the new crowns but not so easy. Maybe i just let the small dicount lay and buy from pALP i nnneeeeeeeeeeeed them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sssurfer Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Eeeeewwwww! Stunning / enlightening review as always, The Zigmeister! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 This is important information. Providing quality control info and actual go no-go stuff like this is invaluable. Please never leave the forum. Usil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dario33 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Great review The Zigmeister -- thanks for posting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tescardo Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Can someone please help me? I really don`t know which crowns The Zigmeister is talking about. PAM ela`s or Palps (Tommy) new crowns ? Thx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkchang79 Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Can someone please help me? I really don`t know which crowns The Zigmeister is talking about. PAM ela`s or Palps (Tommy) new crowns ? Thx This is the new crown provided by member PAM(? Plse correct me on the board name), I am not sure what version this one is (the first batch were bad?) as I remember some problems with the first run. This is the 2.0mm one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palpatine Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) this looks like one of PAMs crowns of the earlier version (as far as i can judge it). the ones i have in my hands (and i sent out) have the less recessed back. so usually its even necessary to sand down the lever a bit to adjust it and to get it to close so there should be enough room and material to adjust the whole mechanism... edited: just saw that watcher on RWG already fitted the new crown and it worked perfect! i have one like the one here in this review on one of my personal PAMs too and its correct that the lever does not touch the crown 100% because of the deep recessed area . i upgraded the lever pin hole (like on jimmyzefu cgs) so that the lever isn´t loose and you can´t see that the lever isnt touching the crown, so i live with it because i do not rely on any rep to be waterproof anyway.... but perhaps you can sand down the cg a bit to make the lever touch the crown again? @tescardo: these are all PAMelas crowns. i did not make a new project, i just helped him with input and handling the shipping etc etc. Edited June 22, 2006 by palpatine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Happy to hear that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancelot Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Great review The Zigmeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 I have just fitted a 2.1mm crown and have experienced none of these problems and mine too has a fairly shallow back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 New PAM Crown review and comments Oh, and the fellow who owns this watch, and the Breitling and the Rollie (movement issue), I'll be emailing you tonight to give you an update on the work, (Briet is still running within a minute a day or better...) RG Well Zig, got your email and read the review. The crown you have is the one I recieved from PAM and I was told it was from his second batch. Palp - I contacted you about the crown as there were some delays in recieving the crown and you were going to look into it for me and contact Marcus (Pam), but of course, as soon as I asked for your help, the crown arrived. Anyway, I sent my watches and the crown to Zig and it looks like after reading the other post in this thread, I either got a first generation crown or a bad crown from the second batch. Any chance I could get a GOOD crown expidited to Zig? Thanks, Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archibald Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Detailed, clear, thorough, called-like-it's-seen, typical The Zigmeister. ON EDIT: these are PAM's crowns, NOT palp's. That'd what I get for not reading the whole thread before posting. Sorry, guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abakan Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I hope PAM reads this, since I PMed him, but he never replied. I got one from his first run and would like to upgrade if the offer still stands. PM me. New ones look pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikellem Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Hi Rob, Thanks again for the great update on our Pam Crown saga... It's hard to live without you here my friend. Enjoy the rest of your vacation and we look forward to seeing you soon! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Hi Rob, Thanks for the reviews as always, I was getting really worried, and after I kept reading it relieved my nerves a bit. Watcher's crown (2.1s) look pretty good, as that is the one that I ordered. Hopefully it won't have problems as I send to you sometime soon for the makeover. Now, if only I can find some spare set of cannon pinion and wheel set. Anyone offering any extra to sell to me, anyone at all? =) Have a good Friday everyone.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palpatine Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 (edited) Hi Rob, Thanks for the reviews as always, I was getting really worried, and after I kept reading it relieved my nerves a bit. Watcher's crown (2.1s) look pretty good, as that is the one that I ordered. Hopefully it won't have problems as I send to you sometime soon for the makeover. Now, if only I can find some spare set of cannon pinion and wheel set. Anyone offering any extra to sell to me, anyone at all? =) Have a good Friday everyone.... the ones i sent out are exactly like the watcher has on his PAM! perhaps the crown from jake was a bad one or a mix up by PAM, i willl notify him that he should look into that! Edited June 23, 2006 by palpatine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palpatine Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 i have done a bit more research on this. and one thing i have noticed and that is the reason for the problem The Zigmeister had: If you look closely on the pic The Zigmeister posted where you can see the lever and the crown, you can see that the lever on this watch is/was already ground down. It has a flat tip instead of a rounded tip that it should have. Reason for this can be 2 things: -someone already modded this PAM with a lello crown before (you have to grind down the lever to get the lello crown to fit) -it came from factory like that, means, the rep makers did that for some reason (perhaps to fit the rep crown, who knows) the crowns from the earlier runs of PAMela have a bit deeper recessed back. but that alone does not mean that the lever will not engage. Some do (if they have a rounded tip) and some don´t (like The Zigmeisters when its flat at the tip). PAM told me that his PAM has one of these crowns too and it fitted without a problem. i also have one of them fitted now on a PAM and it wporked too. So IMHO its not an error of the crown, it can still be fitted when you have a correct lever. the newer crowns from the last batch that are sent out now are all less recessed. You most likely have to grind down the tip of the lever a bit to get it to close so that there is enough space for adjustments for any lever out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodo Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 Thank you The Zigmeister for the review and the info. Very interesting! In the follwup postings I read about 2,0 2,1 and 2,2 mm crowns. From the pix of original Pams I know that Panerai installs crowns of different thickness on different models. I think that the classic models as 111 or 0005 Logo have the thickest crowns. Must be 2.2 mm. Can anyone determine the thickness of the different crowns? This would help to decide for the right crown for the individual model. The second thing is the crown guard problem. If you compare the original on genuine classic PAMs to replicas you´ll find it´s much thicker but you can´t really tell the difference. If someone could determine the exact measurements of the different styles it should be possible to make a hi-quality crown-CG-Combo, especially for the classic models. David Sen is on the right way but his CG still doesen´t look like genuine. The gap between Crown and CG is too wide. The whole thing is in the 0.1 mm range but it can be seen with naked eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 (edited) -someone already modded this PAM with a lello crown before (you have to grind down the lever to get the lello crown to fit) -it came from factory like that, means, the rep makers did that for some reason (perhaps to fit the rep crown, who knows) No need to guess on the crown lever - Since it is my crown I can tell you that the watch came from Joshua (great guy, by the way) and went almost directly to The Zigmeister. I wore the watch for a few days and that was about it. The crown lever is exactly how it came from the factory. Now, if I were to guess, I would say I got a bum crown/1st run crown. Especially since it was obviously drilled crooked and not threaded deep enough. If the 2nd run crowns are requiring some of the crown levers to be ground down because they are less recessed, wouldn't it stand to reason that the crown I recieved may have been a 1st run crown with the greater recess - or someone at the factory ground off a huge chunk of steel from the end of my lever? (probably the less likely scenario) Oh well, either way I hope Pam can ship a good one to The Zigmeister for me. I can't wait to get the watch back and after I recieve it from The Zigmeister I will post some pictures. It is going to look aewsome!!!!! David Sen is on the right way but his CG still doesen´t look like genuine. The gap between Crown and CG is too wide. The whole thing is in the 0.1 mm range but it can be seen with naked eyes. Also - Bodo you are exactly right. I recieved my Davidsen 195 with the extra thick crown guard and crown two days ago and the gap between the crown & guard is definetely wider than it should be. Also, if you look at the lever as it sits in the new crown guard in the locked position, the tip of the lever is noticably too far away from the case. Davidsen has a good eye for detail and it would not suprise me if he is not already woking on the third generations of his PVD PAMs. They sure are beautifull watches! Edited June 24, 2006 by jake48 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 No need to guess on the crown lever - Since it is my crown I can tell you that the watch came from Joshua (great guy, by the way) and went almost directly to The Zigmeister. I wore the watch for a few days and that was about it. The crown lever is exactly how it came from the factory. Now, if I were to guess, I would say I got a bum crown/1st run crown. Especially since it was obviously drilled crooked and not threaded deep enough. If the 2nd run crowns are requiring some of the crown levers to be ground down because they are less recessed, wouldn't it stand to reason that the crown I recieved may have been a 1st run crown with the greater recess - or someone at the factory ground off a huge chunk of steel from the end of my lever? (probably the less likely scenario) Oh well, either way I hope Pam can ship a good one to The Zigmeister for me. I can't wait to get the watch back and after I recieve it from The Zigmeister I will post some pictures. It is going to look aewsome!!!!! Also - Bodo you are exactly right. I recieved my Davidsen 195 with the extra thick crown guard and crown two days ago and the gap between the crown & guard is definetely wider than it should be. Also, if you look at the lever as it sits in the new crown guard in the locked position, the tip of the lever is noticably too far away from the case. Davidsen has a good eye for detail and it would not suprise me if he is not already woking on the third generations of his PVD PAMs. They sure are beautifull wathces! PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake48 Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 PM Dank schön Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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