Power of persuasion and watch replicas

[blade007]

Since there was overlapping conversation at the other thread here I thought the topic deserved a thread of its own..

I have been interested the human thought processes, mostly how we perceive the world around us and what persuades us to make certain decisions. Why we make certain perceptions about others?

It appears that the subconscious mind is more alert than we like to think. We often perform actions and tasks that we not even thinking about. The same is true when judging what we like and dislike, what we believe and disbelieve.

So our mind is making decisions in the background and we are not even aware?

How many of us consciously or sub consciously pass off our fakes as gens?

How many times you see someone wearing a watch and cant quite make up your mind if its a gen?

How many times someone sees your watch and thinks "wow thats a lovely watch, I bet its expensive"?

It would appear that your subconscious mind is already making some judgments and conclusions in the background without us knowing?

I wonder if power of persuasion can be used to convince someone that the "cheap rep" on your wrist is in fact a gen.

Here is a short video to get you all in the mood for some healthy discussion:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=B5aqpTs6rd4

[TeeJay]

How many of us consciously or sub consciously pass off our fakes as gens?

I don't think someone could sub-consciously pass off a rep as gen. Someone could be comfortable wearing a rep, and not caring who sees it, but, that isn't necessarily passing it off as gen. People who pass off their reps as gens make a consious decision to do so.

How many times you see someone wearing a watch and cant quite make up your mind if its a gen?

Depends on the watch, how well someone might know the details of the model, and then comparing that image to what the person is actually wearing. Not in so much a case of suit and tie = gen, jeans and t-shirt = rep, but the quality and cost of the clothes. Sure, people who have a load of money might choose to buy budget clothes, but, would they necessarily wear old ones (in a professional setting?) I once saw a guy in his 40s, on a train back from London wearing a TT Sub. His suit looked like something the Oxfam would throw away, and his shoes looked about ready to fall apart. His Sub was pretty beaten up as well. Personally, I think it was a rep, simply due to the lack of care in the rest of his wardrobe, and, while I wouldn't say someone has to wear a suit with a Sub, I wouldn't expect them to be wearing something which a charity store would reject. Had he been wearing a good quality suit, my opinion might have been different...

How many times someone sees your watch and thinks "wow thats a lovely watch, I bet its expensive"?

I don't know what other people think, I'm not a mind reader

I have had a female friend compliment me on my watch ( ) I've also had a male aquaintance think my 127 was a 'nice watch', but, he didn't think it cost any more than

[paneristi_man]

interesting that you should bring this up.

How many of us consciously or sub consciously pass off our fakes as gens?

It's a conscious decision. if i want to pass off reps as gens,i go out and buy the rep that would most likely fool the average joe. part of that decision would be to buy perhaps a lesser brand rep which is made very well e.g double ar,sapphire glass,ss (no gold or diamonds). no point getting the watch that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and drive a beat up car.

otoh when i don't care to pass off the watch as gen, i would wear the expensive reps e.g rollie full gold. so i can say from my own experience it's a conscious decision.fyi i have both types of watches in my collection,theb bling watch and the more easily pass-off as gen watch.

How many times you see someone wearing a watch and cant quite make up your mind if its a gen?

that depends on the quality of the watch.hard to judge by what the person wears but a combination of the person's age,dress,general appearance,car he drives,places he's seen in etc may give a clue but still not conclusive.

How many times someone sees your watch and thinks "wow thats a lovely watch, I bet its expensive"?

dunno. if it's me,i know the brand so it's not hard to know if it's an expensive watch.also at my age and with the crowd i move with we don't ask. it's just bit crass . you might think that but you never ask the question.

[tenacious_b]

I work in a business setting where image is important, and I know that most of the cow-eyed people I encounter on a daily basis couldn't pick a rolex out of a line up of invictas from 10 feet away. But, they can seemingly tell that the watch is supposed to be something nice, and it is just a visual queue reinforcing their impression of me as a successful businessman, and in some small way, influences my ability to successfully conduct business. I am also certain that my subconscious mind, feeling smug and self satisfied with this image booster directs me to feel more confident and calm in my dealings with my clients, which serves to further enhance the experience both for me and for my clients. Now take it a step further. Many of my clients become friends over the years, and I let them in on my dirty little secret, and I have brought a good number of friends, coworkers, and clients into this sordid hobby. I have never been asked if my watches are fake, and I believe that is because of my over all appearance and demeanor. If you were to carry yourself in a certain way, you certainly could convince someone that a magazine cut out of a rolex sub on your wrist is the new ultraslim super secret submariner of which only 100 were made and you of course being among the lucky recipients.

[surpur]

When it comes to watches I am very selfish - I wear them only for my own pleasure, reps or gens alike, I never cared what other people see in it. I guess I am a bit of a 'private person'. The only time when I think of others might notice my watch is when I get into a questionable neighborhood, then I either sneak the watch off into my pocket or pull a sleeve over it. No point in getting mugged over a watch - rep or gen.

I started dealing in only gen Swiss brand watches from liquidation sales and watch shows and sold them on ebay when times were better (1999 -2001). I sold a ton of Omegas, Tags, Breitlings, Guccis, Movados, Chopards and any possible Swiss brand except Rolex. Rolex does not liquidate their watches..

Well that is what lured me into the rep websites I wanted a Sub but not for $4k..

A friend of mine has a Gallery with Gemstones, watches etc and he always wore nice clothes and this black Submariner, darn I wanted one too...

So I ordered finally a 'Swiss movement, all original, sapphire crystal Rolex Sub' and I must admit I did feel fake at that time wearing my first rep. When my friend saw it he said wow that is a good looking watch, how much was it? He believed it was a gen. So I told him its a rep - and he told me his was a rep too, a cheap one and he couldn't find a watchmaker that would fix it.. Well that was funny to say the least. So I ended up getting him a new one also.

After all these years his watch looks still great, it does not scratch like his old one and he is a happy man.

Since I was not selling watches anymore I had an itch for watches and finally gave into the rep fever and bought everything I always wanted and more

As far as wondering if other peoples watches are real, I only occasionaly ask myself that. Why bother - let them have their fun, I have my fun.

[jeff g]

The power of persuasion...

Who is being persuaded? It is I.

Wearing reps is a method of wearing many brands...styles, many models...key word...many.

I love beautiful watches. Monitarily I am in a posistion to be able to wear any watch I choose.

Most of my peers wear white bread watches, Rolli day dates, TAG's, the occassional Breitling.

My daily beater is the MBK PP Nautilus. No one ever remarks about it. The same is true of my IWC Pilot Chrono, or my BSOH. All three classic watches. NO BODY CARES. Only me.

It's me that appreciates their beauty. I do not wear them for others to admire, but rather for my own enjoyment. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and I be holdin a lot of nice watches.

Watches are pieces of jewelry. Pieces or art. Wear what makes you feel good. Rep...or real,

Edited April 18, 2008 by jeff g

[blade007]

Excellent discussion an very interesting points having been raised. This brings me to the age old question.

Why would someone actively try to pass of their fake as a gen?

I guess in order to explore this, we first have to assume that "faking it" is the mild form of lying (depending on intent). Someone having bought a rep despite paying the gen price is quite severe form of lying and deception on the dealer's part. We must look at lying in general. So, why do we lie...

First, the evidence suggests that lying is a natural skill which people learn to do very early in life. Starting at about age 3, it is normal for kids to lie to get out of trouble. And the same studies show that by the time kids reach age 5, lying to avoid punishment is very common (see, Lewis)

It is interesting to note that it takes children a lot more time and direct instruction to learn to lie to protect other's feelings (i.e., "Tell grandma you like the book she gave you.").

Not only does lying come naturally, but it often happens with little awareness, thought, or planning.

Finally, lying is easy because there is no accurate way of telling when people are being honest or not. Overall, the evidence tends suggests that many people lie to their husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, simply because they can.

lying comes very easy

I work in a business setting where image is important, and I know that most of the cow-eyed people I encounter on a daily basis couldn't pick a rolex out of a line up of invictas from 10 feet away. But, they can seemingly tell that the watch is supposed to be something nice, and it is just a visual queue reinforcing their impression of me as a successful businessman, and in some small way, influences my ability to successfully conduct business. I am also certain that my subconscious mind, feeling smug and self satisfied with this image booster directs me to feel more confident and calm in my dealings with my clients, which serves to further enhance the experience both for me and for my clients.

Excellent point above, So alongside the pshycological aspects we (at times) lie to get a better position and to further enhance our image, project success, boost confidence and influences ones ability to successfully conduct business (@tenacious_b - sorry, I hope you dont feel this is taken out of context)

If someone is actively going around telling people that his rep is a gen could it be fair to call it "deception"?

So, lets move on to discussing about how human mind goes about Detecting Deception.

Depends on the watch, how well someone might know the details of the model, and then comparing that image to what the person is actually wearing. Not in so much a case of suit and tie = gen, jeans and t-shirt = rep, but the quality and cost of the clothes....

....

Personally, I think it was a rep, simply due to the lack of care in the rest of his wardrobe, and, while I wouldn't say someone has to wear a suit with a Sub, I wouldn't expect them to be wearing something which a charity store would reject. Had he been wearing a good quality suit, my opinion might have been different...

that depends on the quality of the watch.hard to judge by what the person wears but a combination of the person's age,dress,general appearance,car he drives,places he's seen in etc may give a clue but still not conclusive.

I have never been asked if my watches are fake, and I believe that is because of my over all appearance and demeanor. If you were to carry yourself in a certain way, you certainly could convince someone that a magazine cut out of a rolex sub on your wrist is the new ultraslim super secret submariner of which only 100 were made and you of course being among the lucky recipients.

Excelent points have been raised in the above 3 posts it seems clear that when we as humans do not take anything at face value, there are underlaying factors that influence our judgement and decission making. We tend to not only observe the person in question but also take note of factors that could support their claim. I agree mearly observing someone's appearence is not sufficient to detetct a "lie" or "deception".. Our subconcious mind is also looking to behavioral clue to help us reach a conclusion..

There are two unique types of behavioral cues that may be produced in the context of deception, leakage and deception cues (Frank & Ekman, 1997). Leakage cues involve non-verbal revelation of a message regarding ones internal state, which may be counter-intuitive to the deceptive message the individual is trying to express. The previously mentioned microexpressions would be an example of this cue, via its presentation of a message regarding the internal affective state of the deceiver. Deception cues are non-verbal behaviors that are suggestive of the likelihood that the conveyor of the cue is attempting to deceive. An example of this would be nervous finger tapping or eye contact shifting. While these cues are suggestive of deception, the nature of the act is unknown. Since deception cues are more a physiological reaction, compared to the cognitively involved leakage cues, the deception cues are independent of context and are thereby considered a more universal cluster of deception-behavioral correlates (Kraut, 1978)

full version of The detection of deception via non-verbal deception cues

any thoughts?

[freddy333]

You are all getting too deep for me.

The 1 thing I know is that anyone who has ever spent extra time or money to get a more accurate (to the gen) rep is, de facto, trying to pass his/her rep off as a gen. And anyone who professes (as is often the case) that they just 'like the watch' or that they would 'wear the watch even if it did not have the brand name on the dial' is being deceptive (to put it mildly). People (like me) who buy & wear replica watches out in public are doing it for 1 reason & 1 reason only - to be seen wearing an expensive watch. This goes back to that Pannie student ipod chap that was spotted on the London bus.

[PAMman]

Subconsciously passing a rep off as a gen??? Nice one, I never thought of that, but if 'subconsciously passing a rep off as a gen' includes the manner in which we wear and treat our watches, then I accept that I don't treat my reps any differently to my genuine watches. I have about 20 - 25 watches altogether, including a couple of gen Panerai, 4 or 5 gen Omega, B&R chrono, Zenith, Heuer etc etc and rep Pannies, rep Breitling and rep IWC etc. I don't try to 'present' my watches or pass them off in any way - I simply wear a selection of different watches on a regular basis and treat them all the same. The few people who recognise them as being 'up market' probably consider that they are all genuine, and at least half of them are, and some reps are on genuine OEM straps etc so that's understandable. However, the biggest factor here probably is that I live in Ireland, where I have never knowingly seen a replica watch in the wild, apart from the ubiquitous Polex and blingy TAG that you buy on the beach in Majorca. Therefore the local perception is that any Rolex (outside of the property industry that I work in, Doctor / Dentist etc) is fake until proved otherwise and TAGs are dodgy watches for dodgy people regardless. Everything else is accepted at face value by the very small minority who even notice in the first place.

There is one IT guy who works in the same building as I do and he regularly wears an Omega Seamaster chrono which he had battered about quite a bit. Given his IT background, familiarity with the Web etc I suspected that his watch may be a rep, particularly as he treats it like is was a Casio, but we got chatting about watches and he tried on my gen B&R while I inspected his Omega. It's the real deal and he passes it off as a disposable, so I'm not sure what 'passing a watch off as a gen' really amounts to.

Edited April 18, 2008 by PAMman

[tenacious_b]

In response to: "Excellent point above, So alongside the pshycological aspects we (at times) lie to get a better position and to further enhance our image, project success, boost confidence and influences ones ability to successfully conduct business (@tenacious_b - sorry, I hope you dont feel this is taken out of context)"

No offense taken at all, as you have taken it exactly how I meant it. I do think it's important though to state that the only "trying to pass it off" I do is completely passive as I don't go around stating that it is or is not a fake. I let people mold their own perception as they will. They may be thinking it's a fake, or it's gen, or it's a nice watch, or this guy is shallow because of his taste in expensive watches. Truthfully, most of the time, I don't know, and am happy enough proceeding in blissful ignorance of their true perception, as I derive the added confidence from my own internal assumption that the customer is impressed, not from the client telling me how impressed they are. So maybe I am guilty of lying....to myself a little each day. <wink>

This has been interesting. I am going to start a thread on unified string theory, quantum mechanics, and the role both play in the theoretical Schr

[TeeJay]

If someone is actively going around telling people that his rep is a gen could it be fair to call it "deception"?

So, lets move on to discussing about how human mind goes about Detecting Deception.

Yes.

If someone does not make the claim that the rep is gen, and, as I mentioned before, is simply wearing a watch, and is comfortable with it, then they personally, are not actively doing anything. Any opinions formed, are purely assumptions and judgements by their observers. Assumptions and judgements which, if the observer acted upon and questioned, the person could confirm/deny, neither of which though, need involve lying about the fidelity of the watch itself.

And anyone who professes (as is often the case) that they just 'like the watch' or that they would 'wear the watch even if it did not have the brand name on the dial' is being deceptive (to put it mildly).

Not so at all. That is nothing but a generalization, based on your own feelings on the subject...

People (like me) who buy & wear replica watches out in public are doing it for 1 reason & 1 reason only - to be seen wearing an expensive watch.

Just because that's your reason for doing so, don't make the assumption that it is everyone's reason for doing so

I can speak for no-one but myself, so that's what I'll do. I wear a watch to tell the time, and, being an essentially lazy person, want to be able to tell the time quickly and at a glance. That requires a large, clear dial (as does telling the time in the dark/without my glasses on) I've found that diver's watches are the best suited to this requirement, Panerai, in particular, I find the largest and clearest. The watch suits my needs. I'm not bothered about the brand-name, hardly anyone I know actually knows the brand anyway, so it's not a case of wearing the watch to impress anyone. Infact, I'm considering 'sterilizing' my 127 to remove the lettering (Not sure why, it's just a mod which I'm mulling over at present) Sorry if that comes across as defensive, I'm just stating the facts of my own circumstances, as I don't like people putting words into my mouth, or ascribing assumptions to me which are inaccurate

[freddy333]

I can speak for no-one but myself, so that's what I'll do. I wear a watch to tell the time, and, being an essentially lazy person, want to be able to tell the time quickly and at a glance. That requires a large, clear dial (as does telling the time in the dark/without my glasses on) I've found that diver's watches are the best suited to this requirement, Panerai, in particular, I find the largest and clearest. The watch suits my needs. I'm not bothered about the brand-name, hardly anyone I know actually knows the brand anyway, so it's not a case of wearing the watch to impress anyone. Infact, I'm considering 'sterilizing' my 127 to remove the lettering (Not sure why, it's just a mod which I'm mulling over at present) Sorry if that comes across as defensive, I'm just stating the facts of my own circumstances, as I don't like people putting words into my mouth, or ascribing assumptions to me which are inaccurate

With all due respect, there are any number of far more accurate & easy to read (at a glance) digital quartz watches available, which, in my opinion, always makes mince meat out of this hackneyed rationalization. To suggest that 1 buys a mechanical watch because of its superior accuracy or legibility strains credulity. But to each his own..........

[TeeJay]

With all due respect, there are any number of far more accurate & easy to read (at a glance) digital quartz watches

I disagree.

To suggest that 1 buys a mechanical watch because of its superior accuracy or legibility strains credulity. But to each his own..........

Are you calling me a liar?

[freddy333]

Are you calling me a liar?

No, definitely not. I just find comments like that difficult to believe.

[TeeJay]

No, definitely not.

Good good

I just find comments like that difficult to believe.

That's fair enough, but, that's your 'issue', not mine... Some folks find it hard to believe that Man has set foot on the moon. That doesn't make NASA liars If I wanted to try and pass off my watches as gens, I wouldn't be buying the Asian 'basic' models from Tony As I said, I might even have the lettering removed from my 127, so it'll have a totally plain dial. I'm still trying to decide if I like it 'sterile' or not (from a photoshop mockup) If I was concerned with passing it off as gen, I certainly wouldn't be removing the brand name (which, as above, most folks don't even recognize, so there's no point in trying to impress people with things they don't recognize )

As I said above, I can only speak for myself, and my own requirements in a watch. While I would agree that there likely is a digital watch which is as easy to read as a PAM, I've yet to see a digital watch which actually looked smart or elegant. Functional, certainly, but, not the aesthetic which I like (analogue) All I was pointing out, was that it is not fair to apply ones's own motives to others:)

[freddy333]

If I wanted to try and pass off my watches as gens, I wouldn't be buying the Asian 'basic' models from Tony As I said, I might even have the lettering removed from my 127, so it'll have a totally plain dial. I'm still trying to decide if I like it 'sterile' or not (from a photoshop mockup)

I think you may have missed my opening premise

'The 1 thing I know is that

anyone who has ever spent extra time or money to get a more accurate (to the gen) rep

is, de facto, trying to pass his/her rep off as a gen.'

Clearly, you do not fall into this category, so please ignore my comments referencing you & your choice of watches. And please accept my apologies.

[TeeJay]

I think you may have missed my opening premise

'The 1 thing I know is that

anyone who has ever spent extra time or money to get a more accurate (to the gen) rep

is, de facto, trying to pass his/her rep off as a gen.'

Clearly, you do not fall into this category, so please ignore my comments referencing you & your choice of watches. And please accept my apologies.

I had noted that premise, and it's one I fully agree with. I simply read your later comment to mean that folks who say they aren't wearing a rep to pass it off as a gen, as being less than honest

Apologies accepted, but really not necessary, nothing more than getting the wrong end of the stick

[blade007]

sorry its taken me a while to return to this thread, my head was rattling from the discussion for a few days. haha

So some of us actively or passively persuade others (at times) that we are wearing something a lot more expensive than its actual value.

what happens when at odd occassion we are "called out"? Do you feel pain/anger/happy/dissatisfied the quality of your super rep? what is one's reaction to being "called out"?

[iceberg1459]

you calling me a liar, Frank? is that what you calling me?

sry i couldnt resist

[arminvanbuuren]

actually i have to admit.. at the start i buy reps to pass it off as a gen.. it's not so much that i would flaunt it around people n go look i have a gen watch woohoo.. but more like i've always wanted to own a gen watch but never really had a thought of spending so much money on a watch.. so due to the fact that reps are so good and very close to it.. id rather spend money on reps.. but i also treat it as a gen, in a way that i want other ppl to see the watch im wearing is a gen.. not some cheap watch..

but as time grow by.. i got addicted to the whole rep world n started appreciating different brands of watches, models, etc. so yeah nowadays i just try to enjoy the hobby as to trying to pass it off as a gen anymore.. offcourse i still want others to think that mine is a gen watch but i dont really care about it anymore

[freddy333]

what happens when at odd occassion we are "called out"? Do you feel pain/anger/happy/dissatisfied the quality of your super rep? what is one's reaction to being "called out"?

To be honest, these days, I only wear watches that have a very low probability of being identified by the general public or average gen owner (THEY KNOW NOTHING) as anything other than a gen (no gold, 'jewels' & a minimum of bling). And I always try to match my watch to my style of dress & the environment I expect to be in. So the likelihood of being called out is vanishingly low to begin with. If I plan to be somewhere where WIS's might be in attendance, I will either wear a gen or keep my wrist under cover. All of my close/long-time friends know that I am an amateur watchmaker (since I fix many of their watches) & franken-builder. Acquaintances have often heard that I am an amateur watchmaker, so they just assume that whatever they see on my wrist is probably a gen (and it often is).

The last time I was called out was a number of years ago & I was wearing a rep that deserved to be called out. I just did not know enough at the time to realize how obvious my rep was. The guy doing the calling out was my waiter & the incident was very embarrassing. Amazingly, he obviously knew alot more about watches (at that time) than I did, so all I could do was admit the truth & chalk the incident up to a learning experience. But that was the 1st & last time I ever got called out. The experience motivated me to educate myself on gens because I hate making the same mistake twice.

Sorry, what was the question? ......... Do I have any pets? Yes, ant farm.