Enough is Enough with QC issues

[Jawo]

Since rep collecting just over a year now, I have purchased more than 50 reps from many of the dealers on this forum. I know we are dealing with reps and that we cannot expect perfection like the gens. There is however a certain level of expectation when we are buying goods, whether they are reps or the genuine article. Just recently, I have purchased a few reps and all of them have visual or mechanical flaws like lume, crown falling off, dust under crystal and the actual crystal falling off. I think of myself as a pretty easy guy to deal with. I like to compromise and make sure both parties are satisfied. But what I can't tolerate are dealers who claim "hand inspected" or "quality assured" in their marketing or communications when this is not true. I have no doubt that that almost entirely that reps are dropshipped. There is no way that a dealer that actually hand inspects these watches can let them pass onto us with flaws. If the watches are being dropshipped so be it but don't give us bs about them being inspected. We need to stand up as a community to voice our distrust and disappointment on how we are being treated with deception and should not be tolerated. It costs me $45 for returrn EMS shipping back to China for a watch to be sent back. I have sent back over a dozen watches for various problems and that is not acceptable, especially if they are "hand inspected". I don't think there is a dealer on this board that has been unscathed by a return due to a flaw. What are your thoughts? Am I being unreasonable or out of line here? Am I expecting too much as a consumer? What suggestions do you have? Should watches perhaps come with an inspection certificate? I have been very patient over the past year but enough is enough.

Jawo

[vric]

So far, I have been lucky I guess. I had one watch with QC issue (was from TTK and better forget this story) and one 7750 DOA.. All my others (only 14 watches bought) came fine without any problem that would suggest a bad QC.

I guess it's just luck, since I have used a lot of dealer (never got more than 2 from the same dealer)

[the osteopath]

Sadly, I don't think there is any real recourse here. We are dealing with a grey product (ok- not even grey to be honest) and to a certain extent, we get what we get. I am pleased that the reputable dealers on the forum will generally take care of any real problems- and that's likely as good as things are going to get.

To really boost the QC would require a serious boycott of product, and that ain't gonna happen.

As much as some of the QC problems irritate me, I am pretty pleased with most products, and the service I've received when the product wasn't quite up to snuff.

Best,

-O

[Mickey Padge]

I agree that QC is poor in general, I always thought that it went with the hobby, these are counterfeit goods after all...

I assume you did not buy from precioustime? PT ships from the EU and as such would return any duff watches before they reached a buyers hand, whereas other non EU dealers would not work in the same way. So with PT you get a QC check before PT gets them, and another when he does, before he forwards them on to the buyer.....

I am sure a few poor watches still slip through PT's hands, but none have found me

[vric]

To really boost the QC would require a serious boycott of product, and that ain't gonna happen.

Agreed. We, the community here and on other forum, are only a very small part of people buying reps. Even if we stop buying, nothing would change.

[steppen]

I agree that QC is poor in general, I always thought that it went with the hobby, these are counterfeit goods after all...

I assume you did not buy from precioustime? PT ships from the EU and as such would return any duff watches before they reached a buyers hand, whereas other non EU dealers would not work in the same way. So with PT you get a QC check before PT gets them, and another when he does, before he forwards them on to the buyer.....

I am sure a few poor watches still slip through PT's hands, but none have found me

+1 with regards to precious time

depends who you buy from, there is a list somewhere of dealers who QC their watches before shipping,

run a search, it'll come up

buy from them in future = problem solved

EDIT: here is the link dealers who QC

[OutSider]

I agree and I too just spent $50 to return a broken watch to China. I can understand non working watch if its done during transit ( and thats a risk we all take) but I absolutely cannot tolerate it when a watch arrives where its clear it was broken from the get go.

I think I am done buying high priced "ultimate" reps that ship from China or anywhere overseas for that matter. I'll buy these from North American sources and only get inexpensive quartz watches from overseas.

Edited April 29, 2008 by OutSider

[b16a2]

My personal view is you pay your money you take your choice. Whatever we think it won't change anything. It can be annoying to be sent a watch that has a QC problem, but such is the nature of the game. It would be like buying a classic car and expecting it to run flawlessly. The rep factories turn these reps out to sell a is, if QC is desired, then the AD is the only place to buy a watch.

[Jawo]

I think the dealers themselves are also getting frustrated with the QC these days too. It also costs them money to get problems fixed. This is the more reason for them also to voice their concerns. You only hear about problems that are in these forums. Imagine the thousands of other watches that have slip by with flaws.

[JohnG]

To really boost the QC would require a serious boycott of product, and that ain't gonna happen.

Maybe not. Dealers may not realize that it might be cheaper to improve quality control than to deal with all the returns they get - and the increased quality would attract additional customers. I think what is largely lacking is an education in customer service and quality control that many people from developed countries take for granted. We can grasp immediately that the way to attract customers is to improve quality, service, and communication. Some sellers have already demonstrated a desire to keep their customers happy - and they are the ones that generally are used by the members of the various forums. Those same sellers might be receptive to improving their business by more direct interaction and feedback from customers.

I have already suggested in another thread that the dealer who starts a thread here entitled "How can I improve my business?" will receive a lot of valuable insight. If he or she implements the most reasonable and practicable of those suggestions they will likely increase their volume and reduce lost time and money associated with returns, dissatisfied customers, etc.

Maybe we should suggest to them that they participate in a "workshop." If successful it could become a subforum.

It seems win/win to me.

[lemonvr6]

Do you really think the dealers are "losing money" with repairs? These things cost nothing to make, and the "errors" are engineered in. Do you really think it takes eleven revisions of a fake directly copied from a gen to be accurate? The money is in volume. If some suckers will pay for ten ever-improving versions of a watch, why make a perfect rep on the first try? There's an awful lot of self-entitlement here for people supporting the black market.

[Stephane]

QC does not exist in our world guys.

Forget it, once and for all.

Even TTK who really did QC for a while couldn't continue to do so and still deliver in reasonable time because QC is way too much time (money) consuming.

As TTK would have said here: how the hell can you expect getting the quality of a 5.000$ watch when paying 250$ or even 750$?

I too have bought a serious amount of watches fresh from dealers and had a lot of issues.

Most of them were minor issues and the way I went is "I'll get a gen crown and tube and pay to install it to fix it".

When thinking about my last purchase, from a dealer that is, I was disappointed again as the same blody crown issue happened again on the Railmaster like on my uPO from the same dealer.

That watche came from PT.

Is PT a great dealer? Sure he is because he helps me to avoid customs.

But that doesn't mean he can do a true QC because the watches he gets are dropshipped by CN manufactures anyway.

It is not different than buying from the local CN dealers.

Still, on my list PT is top 3 as is Narika (very discreet but very good and spending time in Asia to shop before coming back to EU to sell).

Now, we saw some very motivated guys here that wanted or still want to do "better" work.

Cool. Great. Hope.

But with the kind of money they make on a single watch I doubt they can continue to do the QC, regulate, modify, and so on ... any longer.

I will only name TTK that was an honest person but failed to deliver ON time (allthough allways delivered), TWP who was very enthusiast too but disappeared.

So, each time a new dealer shows up on RWG we have hope and so does he.

I sincerely think Eurotimez is approaching the problem much better than the previous ones, but still he needs to make some serious money or we'll loose him too.

Bottom line is: there is no viable business without a true margin.

It's a fact.

Are we spending money for sending back watches that are pieces of [censored]?

Yes, we are.

Is it part of the hobby?

Unfortunately.

Do I have a solution?

Yes!

Think about it twice before ordering and let them know you are not exited to get their new watch...say, I can wait, I'm not sure, maybe...Looks like it has flaws...

But do you feel like doing this? Nope, of course not, we all want the latest trendy rep to be on our wirst right away.

Well, let me tell you something: I will wait for weeks before deciding to buy the next super rep.

You know why?

Because you will probably sell it to me for a fraction of the price as you are p*ss*d off with all these issues.

Buy from other members...another cool option in our common hobby.

Cheers

Stephane

[JohnG]

...how the hell can you expect getting the quality of a 5.000$ watch when paying 250$ or even 750$?

I sure don't and I don't know anyone who does. But I expect a watch that functions and whose hands don't fall off and that doesn't have stripped link screws. For 250 bucks, I should be able to expect that CONSISTENTLY.

But with the kind of money they make on a single watch I doubt they can continue to do the QC, regulate, modify, and so on ... any longer.

In one thread people complain of "cartels" and exaggerated rep prices and now in this thread they are not making any money at all. Which is it? In any event, I don't think we are talking about mods here - just QC. And good QC saves money for the seller. That is a fact taught in every Operations Management 101 class today. Of course there is an optimal level of QC - too much is not justified in a cost/benefit analysis. But I think it is safe to say the optimal level is somewhere above where it stands currently with most dealers.

Bottom line is: there is no viable business without a true margin. It's a fact.

Absolutely. And dealing with [censored] off or merely disappointed customers, handling repairs, replacing watches, etc., losing some customers, all add to the cost of doing business.

Are we spending money for sending back watches that are pieces of [censored]?

Yes, we are.

Is it part of the hobby?

Unfortunately.

Yes and so it will remain so long as no one is even willing to TRY something new. The dealers sure aren't going to be motivated if their own customers think asking for something a little different isn't even worth the keystrokes it would require.

Do you really think the dealers are "losing money" with repairs?

There is no doubt. How much I don't know but every time a watch is DOA or losing or gaining a lot of time or has some other serious problem that could have been detected before the watch left the dealer's hands, they have to deal with it. Their time is worth money and customer good will is priceless. So do the serious QC issues that I see listed here so often cost the dealer money? Of course they do.

[Stephane]

I sure don't and I don't know anyone who does. But I expect a watch that functions and whose hands don't fall off and that doesn't have stripped link screws. For 250 bucks, I should be able to expect that CONSISTENTLY.

In one thread people complain of "cartels" and exaggerated rep prices and now in this thread they are not making any money at all. Which is it? In any event, I don't think we are talking about mods here - just QC. And good QC saves money for the seller. That is a fact taught in every Operations Management 101 class today. Of course there is an optimal level of QC - too much is not justified in a cost/benefit analysis. But I think it is safe to say the optimal level is somewhere above where it stands currently with most dealers.

Absolutely. And dealing with [censored] off or merely disappointed customers, handling repairs, replacing watches, etc., losing some customers, all add to the cost of doing business.

Yes and so it will remain so long as no one is even willing to TRY something new. The dealers sure aren't going to be motivated if their own customers think asking for something a little different isn't even worth the keystrokes it would require.

There is no doubt. How much I don't know but every time a watch is DOA or losing or gaining a lot of time or has some other serious problem that could have been detected before the watch left the dealer's hands, they have to deal with it. Their time is worth money and customer good will is priceless. So do the serious QC issues that I see listed here so often cost the dealer money? Of course they do.

I don't like your posts man. Sorry.

I will thus ignore them.

[JohnG]

I don't like your posts man. Sorry.

I will thus ignore them.

Wow. THAT was an offensive post?

[Logan]

Your best defense against bad QC is to get some tools and learn to fix basic problems yourself. Sadly this just isn't an industry thats ever going to have the kind of quality control some of you are expecting.

[Jawo]

Thanks to guys like The Zigmeister, many of the flaws have been fixed myself. Unfortunately ones like a defective crown, lume or movements is beyond my capability. I know there are no easy answers to this and I didn't mean to stir up such a heated debate. Some members are stating that it is what it is. Perhaps, but we shouldn't be lead to believe that the watches are individually hand inspected when they are not. I can deal with many of the flaws, but can't reason as to why they have been passed through when we are promissed quality assurance. Dropship? Fine by me, but tell it the way it is with some integrity. Rep factory workers probably get paid less in a week than some of us make in an hour. I don't expect them to be 100% motivated to give us perfect reps. But would you not pay a premium to assure you get a perfect watch? For the money it costs the consumer and the dealer to send back return and fix flaws, the money would be better spent initially if it meant getting higher quality goods.

Your best defense against bad QC is to get some tools and learn to fix basic problems yourself. Sadly this just isn't an industry thats ever going to have the kind of quality control some of you are expecting.

[JohnG]

For the money it costs the consumer and the dealer to send back return and fix flaws, the money would be better spent initially if it meant getting higher quality goods.

I agree absolutely but it seems this is a very unpopular view around here. It is hard to imagine a less controversial subject but somehow even this one gets people tense if you express a view that diverges from the majority opinion.

JuanG

[Chronus]

I agree absolutely but it seems this is a very unpopular view around here. It is hard to imagine a less controversial subject but somehow even this one gets people tense if you express a view that diverges from the majority opinion.

JuanG

You seem to have an argumentative style reminiscent of TeeJay... maybe even shades of a Pugwash

[TeeJay]

It's a fine line, to be sure, and sadly, one which varies from person to person. What one person finds acceptable, another will likely not. Ultimately, that depends what they want out of the watch in question: Do they want 'a nice looking watch', or do they want a flawless 1:1 rep, which they can pass off as being gen... The intent and requirement certainly plays a part in what flaws might be tolerated...

Personally, I think the only level of quality assurance, should be basic mechanical 'competence': ie hands don't fall off, crown/screws doesn't/dont strip, hands move reasonably smoothly, rather than getting jerky at random places round the dial, and time-keeping should be reasonable (although not necessarily as precice as COSC standard) Water resistance.... Tricky issue. Some watches, by the nature of the design, tend to have less weakpoints in the case for flooding, so they should have a reasonable degree of water reisistance. Yet, there are reports of watches flooding under relatively passive immersion. With a watch which should be water resistant by virtue of the design and it's construction, such flooding isn't really an acceptable scenario. Lume. Again, a tricky, and very personal issue. Does the person plan to actually need to check the time in a darkened room? If not, what does it matter if the lume is poor? Sure, it's not accurate to gen, but, at the end of the day, if it's not a required feature, does it matter if it's not present? I've found the lume on most of my reps to be adequate for my needs (although some have been better than others, and, my most frequently worn watch, I would like to improve the lume, simply because it is a feature I use daily)

Anything other than that, I'd consider as a bonus if the watch has it. In terms of QC, I think that if someone says they QC a watch, they should do so. I've no problem buying from drop-shippers, they've always corrected incorrect shipments. Yes, it's an expense, but, at the end of the day, still cheaper than buying a gen. I don't like the idea of someone saying they QC a watch, and then not doing so. Personally, I find it hard to believe that a watch, which tells the time at the source, mysteriously 'stops working' during transit. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just find it unlikely.

At the end of the day, we are purchassing rep goods, so less than perfection, as mentioned above, is part of that. That said, with the levels of quality which are around, it's not unreasonable to expect similar levels on a consistent basis. In a way, these watches make me think of shops which sell 'factory reject' stock, ie T-Shirts with a few loose threads, socks which aren't quite the right size etc etc: For the most part, a product which is good enough for everyday use, just not quite 100% perfect. I admit, some people do have unreasonable expectations of products, and ultimately, such folks will never be satisfied with anything less than perfection. Those folks, would likely be best to avoid reps, as invariably, they will wind up disappointed with their purchase. I think as long as folks have reasonable expectations, and as long as dealers provide a reasonable product (ie something which basically 'works' and isn't falling apart) then people should be happy all round

[TeeJay]

You seem to have an argumentative style reminiscent of TeeJay... maybe even shades of a Pugwash

I only argue a point if I have something valid to contribute, or am reasonably sure the point I'm making is correct. I don't argue for the sake of it

[b16a2]

The majority of people who might stumble across rep webistes, such as Joshua etc... may well expect a good product that functions and has good quality control. However after being part of this forum, we have bee educated that there is a very high posibility the watch we get will have a possible flaw, therefore each time we buy a replica we should have at the back of our mind that we might not receive something that is 100%. In the case that we don't get something that is perfect, I feel it is slightly hypocritical (unless it doesn't function what so ever) to then send it back and start making a fuss if for instance, peral isn't positioned in the centre, or there is a lume marker that is wonky.

Reps for fun, gens for life?

[Bizzon]

The few watches in my current collection were purchased after reading the reviews written by other members here. After I read the review I found out who the dealer was and placed my order. I always get in contact with the dealer and mention that I saw the reveiw(and where) or that someone recommended it to me. I usually let them know I am a member here.

I have not been dissapointed yet. But, we'll see in the future as my collection and orders increase in numbers the types of problems that come my way.

[FxrAndy]

Well to add my 2 cts, out of all the watches i have vought i have only had one fault personaly, a lume marker fallen off a rolly dial, i know others who have had the odd one die a couple of months in and one that was impossible to regulate with out a full service and he was not prepared to spend that cash on a rep. I have bought from most collectors over the past couple of years, but i belive that:-

A I have been lucky

B Never really been in a hurry and said that i would rather a good product than a fast one.

C I have considerd my purchase and looked at what i was, what faults could happen and assesed if i could fix them.

D I have been lucky

Bear in mind i only have 2 chronographs, A handwind speedy (bullet proof movement) and a porto chrono a risk that for me paid off.

The only way that we could affect the status quo is to support the collectors that have always been good, the ones that have always supported their buyers, this does not mean that we should never take a chance with a new one but it is just that a chance, i took one with Eurotimez before he was a collector here. I got in touch and liked the way he dealt with me and went I ahead, Chris is showing a way forward now i think with the way he is participating in the bvoard and the information he is passing on and his blatant honesty, i find it refreshing.

So renforce success, and that thing will become stronger.

Also there are many posts where people are reluctant to post the name of a particular collector, we MUST name and shame, other wise the party at fault will continue with shoddy service, To make a point in case I have never dealt with Paul, aka Womart, aka Pam111, aka Abay, there were just too many bad experiences here and leant from others.

So think about what you are going to purchace

Think about from who you are going to purchace

If it goes wrong then speak out!

Oh and never forget this is not exactly legal and they are reps

[Spoooooonz]

I could pick up a fossil watch for under 50 dollars. This watch will have undergone good QC and be free from defects. Out of that 50 dollars fossil have to...

manufacture the watch

spend money promoting the brand

give retailers their margin

provide a long term warranty

pay taxes on their profits

In reps costing 6 times this price i think we should expect defect free watches. What's the point in the makers of reps working to improve the accuracy of their products, when on most reps the surest giveaway is the fact that something on the dial is crooked, or their is a hair nder the crystal..etc.