Child Labor Cases Uncovered in China

[eddhead]

First a disclaimer... I have not purchased a rep in quite a while, not because of concerns with respect to child labor... I just haven't. But this article from the Times which includes a discovery in Guangdong Province, disturbs me and for now at least seals the deal. This makes me sick. Until I know more, I am out of the market for reps.

Sorry if this does not belong in this section, but I wanted to make sure it got the attention it deserved. Moderators please feel free to move it if you think it should.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/world/as...amp;oref=slogin

May 1, 2008

Child Labor Cases Uncovered in China

By DAVID BARBOZA

SHANGHAI

[PAMman]

I certainly don't condone the use of child labour and would hate to think that I was supporting it in any way. However, I do think that I am more likely to be buying the product of exploited workers by purchasing clothes that are manufactured in China, particularly items like T shirts, socks etc which are being sold world-wide under a variety of established brand names.

[Corgi]

A lot of legitimate goods, that we buy everyday in so-called reputable shops at the local plaza, are made in sweatshops.

[eddhead]

This is not about sweatshops. Inded, the article makes reference to more than Child Labor, it also makes reference to Child SLAVE labor. Children are kidnapped from their homes and forced to work in factories, or sold as indentured servants by their parents. And it specifically references provinces like Guangdong where we KNOW watches are made.

As for brand-named merchandise, sure it is a possibility but I have a lot more faith in the ability of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business with than I do in the black market. Still, I am going to think long and hard about buying any clothing, toy or electronic item produced in China until this is cleared up. I will not support this type of business practice.

[giorgio]

The unfortunate reality is that our world has always been built on one form of slaveery or another. It's just that it's not in our own backyards anymore (for most of us, anyway). For most people it's simply out of sight and out of mind. Far more products than we care to imagine are built in third world countries using one form of slavery or another ("sweatshops" being a type of slavery - i.e. long hours, poor working conditions, children, little or no pay, etc.).

[eddhead]

Sweatshops staffed with consenting adults are one thing... I have actually china town factories in NYC and came away thinking that the working conditions were actually OK. But slavery implies a lack of choice, and child slavery is odious We are talking about 10 year old children being kidnapped or sold into indentured servitude. There has to be a special kind of hell for people who do that.

I am sorry but this is a much different circumstance than long hours, little pay, or poor working conditions. I do not want to be part of a practice that supports child slave labor. I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I really think the members here should consider a boycott until this is somehow vetted.

The unfortunate reality is that our world has always been built on one form of slaveery or another. It's just that it's not in our own backyards anymore (for most of us, anyway). For most people it's simply out of sight and out of mind. Far more products than we care to imagine are built in third world countries using one form of slavery or another ("sweatshops" being a type of slavery - i.e. long hours, poor working conditions, children, little or no pay, etc.).

[crystalcranium]

Where do you draw a practical line? With replicas??? 9/10ths of everything we buy in the states has an asian market manufactured part in it...a quick look around my desk...everything from the computer hardware to the pencil sharpener to the calculator to the bulletin board push pins are made in China.

The topic has more global implications but I dont see how we should be the ones to start being altruistic.

[eddhead]

Where do you draw a practical line? With replicas??? 9/10ths of everything we buy in the states has an asian market manufactured part in it...a quick look around my desk...everything from the computer hardware to the pencil sharpener to the calculator to the bulletin board push pins are made in China.

The topic has more global implications but I dont see how we should be the ones to start being altruistic.

Hello Dr. Cranium. As I indicated previously, I have more faith in the abilities of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business in, than I do in the black markets to do the same. Intuitively speaking, I feel that if this is happening, it is far more likely to be happening in the factories we buy are reps from than it is in the factories Dell sources equipment from. Still, I will think hard before buying ANYTHING that I know is made in China. Can I be 100% assured? No. But I can do what I can do.

The fact that Little Children are being kidnapped and forced into labor in this day and age boggles my mind and horrifies me. I cannot tell you how upset I am to have been a part of a business practice that supported this.

[crystalcranium]

Hello Dr. Cranium. As I indicated previously, I have more faith in the abilities of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business in, than I do in the black markets to do the same. Intuitively speaking, I feel that if this is happening, it is far more likely to be happening in the factories we buy are reps from than it is in the factories Dell sources equipment from. Still, I will think hard before buying ANYTHING that I know is made in China. Can I be 100% assured? No. But I can do what I can do.

The fact that Little Children are being kidnapped and forced into labor in this day and age boggles my mind and horrifies me. I cannot tell you how upset I am to have been a part of a business practice that supported this.

Well said...we all need to resopnd to and act on our own internal voice. As for me, I'm sorry to say that I tend to rationalize my part. I find it difficult, for example, to see how conserving water in my neighborhood in the rain soaked Northeastern US has anything to do with drought conditions on the other side of the world...like I said rationalizations galore.

[piratedzeus]

"Overtook Henan and Sichuan to become the most populous province in China in January 2005, registering 79 million permanent residents and 31 million migrants who lived in the province for at least six months"

It's like slavery in ..... Japan then you do not buy a Honda anymore.

[Dave123]

This is not news...

The 'factory' that is commonly mentioned in rep watch discussion is just some kid in the back of a drycleaners with a table and a bag of watch parts.....welcome to China.....

[eddhead]

I am sorry, but I am not getting the connection between Gundong and Japan. Please expand upon your thought. Thanks.

"Overtook Henan and Sichuan to become the most populous province in China in January 2005, registering 79 million permanent residents and 31 million migrants who lived in the province for at least six months"

It's like slavery in ..... Japan then you do not buy a Honda anymore.

[eddhead]

This is not news...

The 'factory' that is commonly mentioned in rep watch discussion is just some kid in the back of a drycleaners with a table and a bag of watch parts.....welcome to China.....

Well it is news to me.. especially the part about someone holding a gun to that kid's head and threatening to kill him/her if they try to leave.

[piratedzeus]

I am sorry, but I am not getting the connection between Gundong and Japan. Please expand upon your thought. Thanks.

~~ same count of residents. It is a HUGE province. It is sad that this happens in China, nonetheless. That the proviceis huge does not that change of course.

[doc savage]

Other arguments (forced labor, wages) aside, 13 is not all THAT young to have a job. Since the dawn of time, it's been more or less the luck of the draw whether you would spend your childhood as a scholar or behind a plow--we just have more scholars nowadays.

[Mitton Mar]

This is not news...

Exactly.

If the original poster is so naive to think that stopping buying replica watches will in any way influence child labour in China, I am AMAZED that such insularity still exists.. do people like this no longer think for themselves? What's the reason for the article? It is certainly bugger all to do with influencing Chinese policy, it has a lot more to do with a drip drip of anti-Chinese sentiment. I mean to say The NY TIMES! as if there are NOT MILLIONS of illegal immigrants in the States being exploited every bit as badly as workers in China. People read about that in the Beijing Times all the time I am sure.

Reality is that Child Labour and serfdom and tied labour is rife in China - and we all know it so do the bosses of Walmart and Tesco and Carrefour and all the others - so this idiotic article in the NYT is just a rehash of a rehash of a rehash. The ONLY way to make things better is to develop the standard of living for the Chinese people and that is EXACTLY what the Chinese Government is doing, it will take time, GOOD LUCK to them.

[FxrAndy]

Well if we find a 10yr old watch smith working over there, i will personaly adopt that boy, feed, cloth and educate him (does ziggy do teaching) And ensure his safety. I dont mean to make light of this situation but some one with a bit of skill could go a long way with the right education in the west.

[JohnG]

If the original poster is so naive to think that stopping buying replica watches will in any way influence child labour in China, I am AMAZED that such insularity still exists.. do people like this no longer think for themselves?

Wow. Maybe it would have no influence at all. Maybe the OP just wants to minimize the probability that he is part of the problem. I don't know. But what amazes ME is that someone would make a personal attack on him, calling him naive and incapable of thinking for himself (i.e. stupid), for no other reason than that he is moved by his own personal conscience to post this article.

I may not alter my buying decisions right now based on this article. But neither will I attack someone whose biggest sin seems to be caring about children and trying to raise awareness because his points make me uncomfortable.

I would rather man up and say I may still buy reps. It's a whole lot more honest.

[eddhead]

Thank you for the defense but I am not going to address the personal attacks. Instead I will stick with substance of the article which provides evidence that these children are being KIDNAPPED and FORCED into labor or are being SOLD into indentured servitude. I am sorry to keep harping on this, and I do not want to come across as preachy but this is a point that seems to escape some of the replies on this thread. I mean good Lord, KIDNAPPING children and using them as SLAVE Labor, forcing them to work 300 hours a month??? That is the equivalent of 1 2/3 full time jobs. You really think this is the same as operating a paper route?? I realize I cannot prevent it, and I realize I cannot determine with any certainty where and when it happens, but once again, my intuition tells me it is far more likely to be prevalent in the factories we buy our goods from than it is in the ones Dell sources or owns. Like I said previously, I can only do the best I can.

And yes, it is true that 13 year olds work all over the world. But they are not forced into labor, they are not threatened with death should they try to leave, and they do not work 300 hours a week in unsafe conditions at the expense of going to school. I mean it happens and all but it is not a normal working environment for a 13 year old, and it should not be accepted as such.

And I seriously doubt these kids are watch smiths. More likely they are used to fulfill unskilled labor needs operating unsafe equipment.

I still am not getting the Japan analogy. Maybe I am being dense, but I am not aware of Child slave labor in Japanese factories at least not post WWII

Wow. Maybe it would have no influence at all. Maybe the OP just wants to minimize the probability that he is part of the problem. I don't know. But what amazes ME is that someone would make a personal attack on him, calling him naive and incapable of thinking for himself (i.e. stupid), for no other reason than that he is moved by his own personal conscience to post this article.

I may not alter my buying decisions right now based on this article. But neither will I attack someone whose biggest sin seems to be caring about children and trying to raise awareness because his points make me uncomfortable.

I would rather man up and say I may still buy reps. It's a whole lot more honest.

[Jawo]

It is the responsibility of the government in China to enforce the restriction of child labor. Unfortunately they do very little to implement child rights. They have established legislation to prevent child labor but do nothing to enforce it. It doesn't help that the US dollar is falling and the cost of doing business there becomes more difficult. I am sure this is the same for our watch collectors. Unfortunately boycotting China for our common goods does not become an option. It is our society that demands low cost of goods, and the retail channel retaining high margins.

[Mitton Mar]

Thank you for the defense but I am not going to address the personal attacks. Instead I will stick with substance of the article which provides evidence that these children are being KIDNAPPED and FORCED into labor or are being SOLD into indentured servitude. I am sorry to keep harping on this, and I do not want to come across as preachy but this is a point that seems to escape some of the replies on this thread. I mean good Lord, KIDNAPPING children and using them as SLAVE Labor, forcing them to work 300 hours a month??? That is the equivalent of 1 2/3 full time jobs. You really think this is the same as operating a paper route?? I realize I cannot prevent it, and I realize I cannot determine with any certainty where and when it happens, but once again, my intuition tells me it is far more likely to be prevalent in the factories we buy our goods from than it is in the ones Dell sources or owns. Like I said previously, I can only do the best I can.

Hi eddhead,

I am not attacking you personally I am pointing out that you appear to me to be insular, I have read the article and your comments very carefully and I while it is a pity, regrettable and in a perfect world it would not happen, the fact is that is the way the world works - not just China. I object EVER SO STRONGLY to western media criticising China without any thought of balancing the argument by pointing out the absolute FACT that children and adults in so-called civilised nations such as the UK, in Europe, and the USA are kidnapped and sold into forced labour every day of the week. You don't seem to be posting about that or mentioning it either? Why post about a report from China?

Just GOOGLE stories about the sex-trade in the UK where thousands of Eastern European children have been sold to brothels here over the last few years, or the hundreds of cases of immigrants coming into Europe have to pay-off their 'fare' by working for "gangmasters". In the USA it happens as well - with sex trade workers and agricultural workers as well as tens of thousands of illegal immigrants working for unscrupulous bosses in every branch of the economy. If you do not think this is true, or choose to think this only happens in China, Africa or India think again. The report was badly written, poorly researched and REEKS of some other anti-Chinese agenda.

Please note that I have been to China over twenty times in the last ten years and I am not so naive as to think that the 'socially-audited' factories are the only ones whose goods who end up on Western shelves. But I have seen a massive rise in both living standards and indeed in social conditions, believe me, China is tackling social problems, but they have 1.1 billion people to feed and it is a slow process there will be horror stories for years to come, but you have to look at the bigger picture. You should support the efforts of the Chinese people, not swallow the propoganda you read in the NY Times.

I know you will not agree with me, but please do think about the relevance of this ONE article and the complete omission of a balanced view.

[TeeJay]

I am sorry if this offends anyone, but I really think the members here should consider a boycott until this is somehow vetted.

I'm certainly not offended, but I don't think a boycott by members would actually have any impact or do anything to remedy the situation itself. All it would do, is maybe ease people's consciences, by knowing they aren't receiving such goods, which is fine, but, as before, doesn't actually do anything to remedy the situation itself. I'm all for action, providing such action will be productive and achieve a goal.

Thanks for raising the issue though

[eddhead]

Hi eddhead,

I am not attacking you personally I am pointing out that you appear to me to be insular,

Thank you for the clarification, but let me assure you I am not as insular as you may think. I have traveled the world too, and while I have never been to China, I have been to HK, Spore, Malaysia, throughout Europe and have visited a number of third world nations in Latin America. Still, I do not want to make this about me so I will resist from commenting further on my experiences and observations.

I have read the article and your comments very carefully and I while it is a pity, regrettable and in a perfect world it would not happen, the fact is that is the way the world works - not just China. I object EVER SO STRONGLY to western media criticising China without any thought of balancing the argument by pointing out the absolute FACT that children and adults in so-called civilised nations such as the UK, in Europe, and the USA are kidnapped and sold into forced labour every day of the week. You don't seem to be posting about that or mentioning it either? Why post about a report from China?

It is equally appalling that children are kidnapped and forced into labor in other locations. As far as I know, I do not support businesses in those locations that avail themselves to forced child labor, and I do not intend to support businesses in China that do so either

Just GOOGLE stories about the sex-trade in the UK where thousands of Eastern European children have been sold to brothels here over the last few years, or the hundreds of cases of immigrants coming into Europe have to pay-off their 'fare' by working for "gangmasters". In the USA it happens as well - with sex trade workers and agricultural workers as well as tens of thousands of illegal immigrants working for unscrupulous bosses in every branch of the economy. If you do not think this is true, or choose to think this only happens in China, Africa or India think again. The report was badly written, poorly researched and REEKS of some other anti-Chinese agenda.

You are missing the point. I have no doubt that these conditions exist throughout the world. The difference is that I do not support them through the expenditure of my hard earned dollars, or at least I do not make a conscious effort to do so. And in defense of the Times, where they discover instances of Child abuse throughout the World, they report on them. Witness the series of articles Nick Kritoff did last year on Child Sex Trafficing in Africa. I did not bring that to the attention of this forum because it was not germane to our hobby. The Chinese factories are.

Please note that I have been to China over twenty times in the last ten years and I am not so naive as to think that the 'socially-audited' factories are the only ones whose goods who end up on Western shelves.

Perhaps not, but as I have posted previously, I can only do the best I can. We cannot be certain that the goods that end up on Western shelves are "sociallhy audited" but we can have a reasonable expectation that they are. In any event, it is likely that black market goods are not. You have to draw the line somewhere.

But I have seen a massive rise in both living standards and indeed in social conditions, believe me, China is tackling social problems, but they have 1.1 billion people to feed and it is a slow process there will be horror stories for years to come, but you have to look at the bigger picture.

Agreed that Western Trade and the influx of foreign capital have fueled economic growth in China and as a result have led to increased living standards. Somehow I think that has more to do with legitimate trade facilitated through legitimate Western Corporations and businesses than it does with black market trade

You should support the efforts of the Chinese people, not swallow the propoganda you read in the NY Times.

I do support the efforts of the Chinese people and do not think this indicative of their culture or values. You can go anywhere and find bad actors. As a matter of course, I do not stereotype people. But you cannot excuse this level of child abuse and where you find it you need to act on it. I applaud the efforts of the NY Times in doing so, and cannot understand how you can label the publication of a legitimate news story as propoganda.

[Mitton Mar]

Hi Eddhead, I do appreciate your level-headed and eloquent reply, and believe me I do empathise with any suffering that may be reported in the article, it has hit a nerve with you, and I will not argue further on the point that it is not just China - you appear to accept that as I accept that you are only bringing this up in this forum because you feel it is directly related to this rep hobby.

I do hope, however, that you may empathise with someone who is heartily sick of China being continually depicted in a negative light, while the great things that China is doing are all but ignored, I've seen this for years and I feel, with some justification that such coverage such as the NYT article is indeed negative propaganda which is never counter-balanced by an equal amount of coverage on the massive strides that China has taken in improving their people' lives. There are gullible people out there who do not think for themselves and swallow this nonsense, you, it appears are not among them.

Personally, the thing that bothers me more is the FAKE trade in general. I recently watched a National Geographic (PBS) programme from the states which was shocking and another equally disturbing programme from the UK's Channel 4, it's not just watches, trainers and fake handbags and it's not just China, it's medicines, car parts, wine, foodstuffs, electronics and even spare parts for planes - that, more than reports of bonded slaves working in Chinese factories has made me ponder on this rep thing.... that is much more distressing, because it is growing, worldwide.

Take care

Mitton

[JohnG]

I object EVER SO STRONGLY to western media criticising China without any thought of balancing the argument by pointing out the absolute FACT that children and adults in so-called civilised nations such as the UK, in Europe, and the USA are kidnapped and sold into forced labour every day of the week. You don't seem to be posting about that or mentioning it either? Why post about a report from China?

Uh I don't know... this is a forum dedicated to watches largely manufactured in CHINA?

Just GOOGLE stories about the sex-trade in the UK where thousands of Eastern European children have been sold to brothels here over the last few years,

You mean stories written by a media that never "points out the absolute FACT that children and adults in so-called civilised nations such as the UK, in Europe, and the USA are kidnapped and sold into forced labour every day of the week"? Let's see, I never read Chinese newspapers - I read the IHT and the Economist and I have seen plenty of such stories - but wait, that can't be! The western press never talks about slave traffic in the Occident! I must be lying!

I know you will not agree with me, but please do think about the relevance of this ONE article and the complete omission of a balanced view.

Because an article about child labor in China does not also discuss child labor in L.A. or London does not make it unbalanced. I will give you the simple truth as to why that article does not discuss child labor and the slave traffic in the west.... Because it IS NOT ABOUT CHILD LABOR AND SLAVE TRAFFIC IN THE WEST.

Look, if you don't want to stop buying reps on the chance that there might be abuses in one or more of the factories that manufacture them, just be a man and say so. The whole media thing tirade is a red herring.