Child Labor Cases Uncovered in China

[radiohead101]

And yes, it is true that 13 year olds work all over the world. But they are not forced into labor, they are not threatened with death should they try to leave, and they do not work 300 hours a week in unsafe conditions at the expense of going to school. I mean it happens and all but it is not a normal working environment for a 13 year old, and it should not be accepted as such.

There aren't even 300 hours a week. The original article said 300 hours a month. I work almost 400 hours a month in unsafe conditions here in the US. Where's all the people with protest signs helping me out?

[eddhead]

Hi Eddhead, I do appreciate your level-headed and eloquent reply, and believe me I do empathise with any suffering that may be reported in the article, it has hit a nerve with you, and I will not argue further on the point that it is not just China - you appear to accept that as I accept that you are only bringing this up in this forum because you feel it is directly related to this rep hobby.

I do hope, however, that you may empathise with someone who is heartily sick of China being continually depicted in a negative light, while the great things that China is doing are all but ignored, I've seen this for years and I feel, with some justification that such coverage such as the NYT article is indeed negative propaganda which is never counter-balanced by an equal amount of coverage on the massive strides that China has taken in improving their people' lives. There are gullible people out there who do not think for themselves and swallow this nonsense, you, it appears are not among them.

Personally, the thing that bothers me more is the FAKE trade in general. I recently watched a National Geographic (PBS) programme from the states which was shocking and another equally disturbing programme from the UK's Channel 4, it's not just watches, trainers and fake handbags and it's not just China, it's medicines, car parts, wine, foodstuffs, electronics and even spare parts for planes - that, more than reports of bonded slaves working in Chinese factories has made me ponder on this rep thing.... that is much more distressing, because it is growing, worldwide.

Take care

Mitton

Mitton, I do not consider this an attack on Chinese people in general, nor do I view the article as such. Without going into detail, you might be surprised by the level of sympathy and empathy I have for the Chinese, largely as a result of some of my personal relationships. As I said previously, you'll find bad actors any place throughout the world. In my view, what makes the Chinese more susceptible this kind of thing is the lack of regulatory support. Quite simply stated, industry in China has grown at faster pace than than regulatory infrastructure is able to support. Under similar circumstances I am certain other countries would experience similar results. But that does not make me feel any better about supporting these businesses. As a matter of conscious, I feel compelled to ask others not to as well.

[KB]

@eddhead whereas I fully agree that child labor, let alone forced labor, is abhorent regardless of where ever it happens in the world there are two main points that strike me with your original post (1) Child labor has been rife in China and many other countries for a long time, there is nothing new about this article (2) The unfortunate reality is that you cannot link this to the replica industry alone and must take the broad view that anything that comes from China can (and many will) be tainted by child labor, your large department stores such as Walmart and Tesco are far more worried about end price than these domestic issues. If they, for example, buy say a teddy bear from a certain manufacturer they need (due to western media) to assure it has none of the issues with their company, they don't however need to check where the material for the product come from.

Ken

[eddhead]

@eddhead whereas I fully agree that child labor, let alone forced labor, is abhorent regardless of where ever it happens in the world there are two main points that strike me with your original post (1) Child labor has been rife in China and many other countries for a long time, there is nothing new about this article (2) The unfortunate reality is that you cannot link this to the replica industry alone and must take the broad view that anything that comes from China can (and many will) be tainted by child labor, your large department stores such as Walmart and Tesco are far more worried about end price than these domestic issues. If they, for example, buy say a teddy bear from a certain manufacturer they need (due to western media) to assure it has none of the issues with their company, they don't however need to check where the material for the product come from.

Ken

Ken,

I appreciate your views but I disagree with your conclusions, the gist of which seems to be shared by the majority. For the sake of brevity, I will resist from repeating my response to those conclusions which is documented in previous posts on this thread. I am not trying to offend anyone, nor am I trying to be preachy or insular and I truly hope no one is offended. But the prospect of purchasing goods potentially produced from the fruit of of Child Slave Labor mortifies me. I realize I can never be 100% sure that goods purchased in dept stores are also not so produced. All I can do is make a best effort.

[JohnG]

Quite simply stated, industry in China has grown at faster pace than than regulatory infrastructure could support. Under similar circumstances I am certain other countries would experience similar results.

That is exactly what has happened. And you suggest the same happens anywhere there is rapid industrialization and in the late 19th century and early 20th century the United States was no different. Ironically, communism was in large part a response to precisely this kind of exploitation.

That said, until I have real evidence that actual slavery is occurring in the factories that manufacture rep watches I will likely not stop collecting reps. In order to do so and be consistent I would have to cease purchasing a whole host of products and spend more time researching buying decisions than I am willing to. I will not knowingly buy from anyone who uses slave labor. But the issue of child labor specifically and worker exploitation in generally and their cumulative impact on social development at the macroeconomic level is extremely complex and I do not have a blanket policy of not buying from anyone who uses child labor or provides substandard conditions for workers.

Edited April 30, 2008 by JuanG

[tjul]

Those who have kids knows how to act...at least I know....

GET REAL!

That is exactly what has happened. And you suggest the same happens anywhere there is rapid industrialization and in the late 19th century and early 20th century the United States was no different. Ironically, communism was in large part a response to precisely this kind of exploitation.

That said, until I have real evidence that actual slavery is occurring in the factories that manufacture rep watches I will likely not stop collecting reps. In order to do so and be consistent I would have to cease purchasing a whole host of products and spend more time researching buying decisions than I am willing to. I will not knowingly buy from anyone who uses slave labor. But the issue of child labor specifically and worker exploitation in generally and their cumulative impact on social development at the macroeconomic level is extremely complex and I do not have a blanket policy of not buying from anyone who uses child labor or provides substandard conditions for workers.

Edited April 30, 2008 by tjul

[JohnG]

The unfortunate reality is that you cannot link this to the replica industry alone and must take the broad view that anything that comes from China can (and many will) be tainted by child labor...

Ken I don't think you have to take that broad of a view in order to arrive at the conclusion, as eddhead does, (reasonably I believe) that factories that manufacture illegal goods are subject no virtually none of the external controls that have already been referred to, and as such are at much higher risk for using slave labor. I agree with this analysis but am simply unwilling to alter my behavior based on a supposition, no matter how logical it is.

A subtle point but one worth making I think.

[JohnG]

Those who have kids knows how to act...at least I know....

GET REAL!

So I take it you will be returning your 3717 and not buying any more reps? I am not being sarcastic - I assume from your comment that that is the case.

[tjul]

So I take it you will be returning your 3717 and not buying any more reps? I am not being sarcastic - I assume from your comment that that is the case.

YES, what are you planning to do?

[JohnG]

YES, what are you planning to do?

Until someone shows me evidence that eddhead's speculation is more than just that - speculation, I plan on doing nothing.

I don't pretend that I am proud but I am not going to dance all around with rationalizations trying to explain away eddhead's fears and legitimate concerns or try to turn this into a referendum on the western media.

[tjul]

Not sure what you mean, "mate" (hard to write, as I see) but do as you wish, we all have our opinions.

If there

Edited April 30, 2008 by tjul

[KB]

factories that manufacture illegal goods are subject no virtually none of the external controls

No my point is that in China external controls for even legitimate factories are close to non exsistant, that is I am sure there are many rules and regulations but it is the enforcement of those directives that is lacking, this is why China is the hub of the worlds replica industry in the first place.

So in short yes many legitimate goods that come from China can pass at one point through the hands of child labor to suggest otherwise is to only fool ourselves.

Ken

[JohnG]

Not sure what you mean, "mate" (hard to write, as I see) but do as you wish, we all have our opinions.

If there

[KB]

If there

[JohnG]

I guess I could be a bit more honest.

In all truth, I would rather not try to build a visual image of the inside of the factory where my SSD is manufactured - or what goes on there. When I try to conjure an arguably realistic picture in my head, it is quite ugly.

[KB]

I guess I could be a bit more honest.

In all truth, I would rather not try to build a visual image of the inside of the factory where my SSD is manufactured - or what goes on there. When I try to conjure an arguably realistic picture in my head, it is quite ugly.

And yet every time we see a media release of a bust on a rep watch manufacturer they are always consenting adults they are hauling off to the police station.

Ken

[JohnG]

And yet every time we see a media release of a bust on a rep watch manufacturer they are always consenting adults they are hauling off to the police station.

Ken

Really? I didn't know there had been any - if you can document that I would be really appreciative (or I will google it tomorrow). I don't have a huge moral dilemma with stepping on Rolex's trademark (Rolex is the man and it is good to step on the man), but I don't like having to admit that I am consciously avoiding thinking about what really happens in those factories...

[KB]

There a couple here on our board.........hit the search button newbie

Ken

[Nightstroker]

But this article from the Times which includes a discovery in Guangdong Province, disturbs me and for now at least seals the deal. This makes me sick. Until I know more, I am out of the market for reps.

How many people do you think get scammed every year as a result of buying a watch that they thought was genuine?

Probably over $100,000,000 per year in replica watch scams world wide....

When we buy a replica watch....we are actually supporting an industry that perpetuates fraud....even though we have no intention of scamming anyone and we buy the watch for our own personal use....

The article you have posted is another great reason to get out of the rep collecting business....if indeed there are kids in sweat shops who have been made slaves....until some more specific information on this subject has been uncovered I am with you....I will not buy another rep....

To bad the article was not more specific about what kind of factories these kids are forced to work in....

From my understanding....replica watch factories are not really 'factories'....as Dave123 said they are in the back room of businesses and peoples homes where a couple of people are putting watches together....its not like a huge assembly line with hundreds of workers putting them together....at least I hope not....

[robj]

Usually what happens when something like this is highlighted is nothing! Every time the west get involved they tend to make the people who they are helping worst off.

In almost all situations the people who are voicing an opinion are basing it on their moral values and are ignorant to the cultural norms of the society they are talking about.

In India / China and in general the Asian world over population and economic situations allow this to go on it has been that way for a 1000 years long before America and Europe decided that their way of life was the only correct way.

In many situations just closing the factories will not benefit anyone. On the contrary in situations like this it has been shown that the people in this situation have to turn to prostitution etc to live when there is no factory work to be had.

The problem is far more wide spread than a few copy watches almost 90% of what consumers buy in the west is Asian in some part or another. I agree the Walmarts and Tesco's of this world do make a token effort to control this sort of thing but it's only smoke and mirrors occasionally they will stop buying from a supplier because of this sort of thing but don't be mislead this is nothing to do with the morals of it only to do with public opinion and promotion.

If one is going to do anything about it it has to be a blanket effect boycott all Asian goods until they are proven to be made using only willing labour that is in a union,that is how impossible the situation is.

Gz is the the center of watches in China but 90% of the factories are in remote locations not all in GZ in fact it is more likely the watches you are buying are only brought to GZ to sell.

Because it's an illegal business they tend to steer clear of the highly industrialized areas and choose remote locations.

The shoes/shirts you are wearing are more likely to be linked with child labour and slavery than copy watches .

I am not saying for one moment that this is correct in the 21st century and I would like to see it as would anyone stopped but I think that one has to be realistic and realize that it's not going to happen at our level and only governments can cure the problem.

Right now with the worlds economy is in such economic decline I don't see anyone making a stand about this.

Copy items are an easy target to use as a vehicle of effect in journalism they would have you beleive that all copy goods sold are to promote organized crime/ Drug dealing and now lately the fashionable link is with terrorism!

So why stop at child labour we are funding terrorism as well but thats ok because all the money we pay for oil is only being spent on humanitarian projects and the world governments have checked, none is used for any immoral or illegal activity it's only the money from copy copy items that is used for anything that is not legal

[KB]

The point is that it has only been assumed that this is linked to the rep watch industry because the raids took place in Gaungdong (didn't someone point out this is China most populous city?), to my knowledge the center of the rep industry is in fact Gaungzhou and whilst reps are made all over China I am sure the legitimate manufacturers in Gaungdong far exceed the illegal ones.

Also there are in fact many backroom operations which mainly assemble watches but factories are in fact needed to make cases and such, not many people would have a CAD in the kitchen.

Ken

[robj]

The point is that it has only been assumed that this is linked to the rep watch industry because the raids took place in Gaungdong (didn't someone point out this is China most populous city?), to my knowledge the center of the rep industry is in fact Gaungzhou and whilst reps are made all over China I am sure the legitimate manufacturers in Gaungdong far exceed the illegal ones.

Also there are in fact many backroom operations which mainly assemble watches but factories are in fact needed to make cases and such, not many people would have a CAD in the kitchen.

Ken

yes I agree they picked Gaungdong as an example it's only the members have put 2 and 2 together and made 5. I would think that very few if any rep factories actually makes the complete thing all use bought parts and assemble. I am in Gaungdong 2 or 3 times a month and I don't see the level of poverty that I see in Mumbai/Phnom Phen for example.

[teddy boy]

The manufacturers of genuine brand name products certainly have more to lose from adverse publicity and that should provide some deterent against using slave labor. Whether defending their good name is sufficient incentive to avoid the practice is anyones' guess. However, we know that the manufacturers of reps don't face the constraint of defending their good name.

[jfreeman420]

If they are being made by child labor shouldn't the prices be lower?

Ok maybe that was in bad taste but I think I have a strong argument here................ Anyway, what's wrong with kids making watches? I have had some kind of business since I was 12 years old and have worked very hard ever since. It's not like it's hard labor or anything. Everyones got to eat. Just my opinion. If kid's want to work I say let them, but at the same time they shouldn't be forced to work.

If a child's job assembling watches helps to support their family and feed them and they aren't in physical danger it doesn't hurt anyone. Of course they shouldn't be forced to work extreme hours. Wal-Mart is the largest employer of people and children with horrible working conditions worldwide. Someone should shut them down.

[archibald]

As for brand-named merchandise, sure it is a possibility but I have a lot more faith in the ability of legitimate corporations to audit the factories they do business with than I do in the black market.

You do? I'd bet that after about 15 minutes of doing some googling on the working conditions in the chinese factories making stuff you use every day, you won't.

The manufacturers of genuine brand name products certainly have more to lose from adverse publicity and that should provide some deterent against using slave labor. Whether defending their good name is sufficient incentive to avoid the practice is anyones' guess. However, we know that the manufacturers of reps don't face the constraint of defending their good name.

If regulation and enforcement are lacking, if organized labor and watchdog groups are non existant, and if the media is state run where's the risk?