I enjoy reps but....

[the osteopath]

Ok, so I began my interest in reps several years ago, and became a regular poster on RWGI (Where many a political thread ended in on-ine bloodshed!!!) In any case, during that time I really began to appreciate the hobby- recognizing flaws, identifying reps that were best out of the box- and I really enjoy the ingenuity everyone here exhibits in an effort to achieve rep 'perfection'.

That being said, and I know this has been written about a LOT recently- as the prices for the 'super-reps' continues to creep up, I find myself questioning the value.

Now when I say value, I don't mean in monetary worth, I mean in terms of enjoyment bang for your buck.

My most recent rep purchase was the Chopard XL GT Chrono LE- and in my opinion, this is one of the best reps I have seen. Needs no mods, and for 99% of the world, will never raise an eyebrow. It cost 400plus.

Now for my 400, I got a really nice watch, with a potentially scary movement. I am really enjoying it, but everytime I start and stop the chrono, I flinch a little- wondering if this is the operation that will finally do it in- kind of a yucky feeling to have for something I just dropped 400 bucks on ( I actually use the chronograph for work related stuff.) If I bought a new digital camera for 400, and it had a very high likelihood of failure, it would really bug me, but for some reason I put up with it in reps.

A few days ago, I won an auction for an Enzo Mechana dive watch. I've wanted one of these for a while, and the auction had me dropping about 600.

The watch came today, and to say I'm impressed with the build quality would be an understatement. Its construction is fantastic, even rivaling my genuine Panerai 024 in some respects- for $600!!!! For only a little more (relatively speaking of course) than the 'super rep.'

Now, this realization/feeling will not prevent me from buying reps (I really want a ceramic HBB!), but I was wondering if any of you have the same sort of feelings regarding this, and how do you mentally reconcile buying a fake when you take these little internal notes??

Just thinking,

-O

Edited May 14, 2008 by the osteopath

[By-Tor]

Not commenting the prices here... but once again I ask where are all the horror stories of the new Asian 7750?

When people think about the bad reputation of A7750, they think about the old, low beat movement. This is not the same movement... it's been over 2 years when the new A7750 was released, and if you haven't noticed we see very few bad reports of it... considering that thousands of members own A7750 powered watches.

So I'm not entirely sure if it deserves to be called "potentially scary movement" any longer.

[italiano17771]

i dont know why, but for some reason i am much more attracted to chronos...that being said, i never had one completely

die on me. i currently own around 10 reps...2 with the old 7750...the rest with the new version and they are all

running just fine. i agree with bytor, still dont know why the newer 7750's have a bad reputation.

Edited May 14, 2008 by italiano17771

[StormTooper4]

I was thinking the very same thing as I removed my Ceramic HBB from its box yesterday as soon a s it arrived. But when I see the sparkle in that ceramic and it change colour ...................who cares about the $$$$$$ I mean its a 12k+ watch, right?

I really don't know what it is about reps, you are so correct that there are good value and high quality lesser brand gens to be had, but Reps have ther certain uncertainity about them that is compelling I guess.

Good call on you Pam024, but how much more pleasure does it provide compare to your reps? of course its a better investment $wise and quality but is it a greater watch just because its authentic? because I get the same feeling from my Reps as do my Gen Tudors, even more so when they are new.

The price of goods, what ever they are, seem to be on the up globally, I paid over $4 for a coffee in Starbucks the other day, I mean when did a coffee go over the 4dollar mark? and don't even start me on petrol/gas.

Good reps are bound to cost a little more these days I guess

Now go get that Big Bang, I can hear it calling your name

[fotoman]

Ost - my comrad in political arms

i've gone more gen - there are a few though that are seriously awesome - my steelfish, my new 2tone BCE with gen crosswind dial and k2222 or chief AR will be awesome

the AR really ads alot of BANG if you haven't had it done can turn an average watch into a stunner.

my corum admirals cup competition and my 177h

but, i wear my tissot, my custom pvd skeleton and my tourby alot

i've stepped up and spent my $$ on some hktan straps - INCLUDING a black hornback 5mm thick for my skeleton pvd also a gen gator for my tourby

got a gen rubber strap for the steelfish

i guess- i've gone quality over quantity

there are other models i'd take if i had extra cash, BUT - i gotta say that my "collection" has become very special - and, its alot to do with the price

the dollar doesn't help either

[the osteopath]

"Now go get that Big Bang, I can hear it calling your name"

Yeah- hear it too. Glad you said so- I thought I was going insane.

BTW- I've had one 7750 work flawlessly, and two go funky. I guess you just need to get lucky.

I'll keep you posted on the lifespan of the Chopard.

-O

[Dani]

the hbb is by any terms overpriced but we still buy even i em considering the new senna version

[freddy333]

Overall, I think the ETA-powered reps are pretty reliable these days. Especially, if you get them serviced regularly, which is a prerequisite for any mechanical movement. Gone are the bad old days when even the best reps were powered by cheap, unreliable Asian 'mystery' movements (these bear no direct relation to the 'Mystery' DW movements) that were considered great if they kept reasonable time for 6 months before they ticked their last tock.

Like others said, you rarely hear of problems with 7750-powered watches these days (exceptions being the secs at 6 modified versions, even though many of the 1st generation are still ticking away without missing a beat). But if you plan to keep your new Chopard, I would follow Ziggy's advice & get it properly serviced. Then you should be able to enjoy it without fear (at least until the next service interval).

[robertk]

Hell.....I've got tons of chrono's with the newer movement and run them all the time. Only one has given me a problem (runs a little slower when the chrono is active).

Go for it and get the HB. You're already in this deep.

BTW, don't use the chrono's if you're shooting an approach to minimums and you're life depends on it. Other than that their fine.

[Sir-Lancelot]

I have not had any problems with a standard layout 7750. The modifications to standard are what f's them up IMO.

Thing is all the cheaper reps are still out there for purchase, we just want the super reps because they are the best out of the box. The finishing and details are so much better than anything we had in the past and the appearance is very close to the real deal without spending thousands.

In my opinion, it's worth a little more for the super reps. NOT the $1,000 super, but the $350 super are a good value. Yea, I buy fewer reps, but buying 2 $150 reps don't give me the same feelings that a $350 Chronomat Evo does.

I will never ever lay down $1000 on a rep, NEVER. To me that defeats the purpose and takes the fun out of it.

I still want all those expensive reps, but for me it's not going to happen. I will just enjoy the member pictures posted here and have a little extra $$ in my wallet.

[Jimmythree]

quote =

Overall, I think the ETA-powered reps are pretty reliable these days. Especially, if you get them serviced regularly, which is a prerequisite for any mechanical movement. Gone are the bad old days when even the best reps were powered by cheap, unreliable Asian 'mystery' movements (these bear no direct relation to the 'Mystery' DW movements) that were considered great if they kept reasonable time for 6 months before they ticked their last tock.

/quote

I agree with you about Eta powered watches.

If you get a fresh, clean Eta movement, it will usually run without trouble for at least 5 years. Asian 'mystery movements' usually last from 2 minutes to a year or two.

There are exceptions of course...like the guy I know who wore a submariner look-alike with a DG/CH 2813 for 5 years before it blew up. (the ball bearings on the winding rotor wore out and fell out of the race)

...and the Sea-Gull ST19 chronograph movement that seems to be one of the best cheapo Asian movements made.

As for genuine watches...

I have a 16013 DJ that I wore for a while but parked it after I made up a replica Swiss Eta 2836 DJ with 18K bezel, oem type sapphire crystal/gasket, genuine crown etc because I simply do not trust a genuine Rolex to run without breaking. (I am speaking from experience, not blowing smoke)

Back when I wore a Rolex all the time, it took three...

1...one to wear

2...one spare for when the one I was wearng blew up

3...one waiting on parts

Kinda like a Harley D motorcycle.

Many of the current rolexophiles who brag about how 'tough' their Rolex watches are must be new to the mechanical watch game...or keep them on a watch winder.

Anyone besides me ever wonder why Rolex has the biggest watch parts and repair business in the universe? Maybe it's because they break a lot.

The 16013 has already had a new mainspring, balance staff, cleaning job, crown, case tube, crystal, and gaskets since I had it (four months, and it had a 2004 service date written inside the caseback)...what's next? Besides all this, the hairspring is laser welded to the collet on the 3035 and they are famous for coming loose...the fix is a new $400 balance assembly. I have little faith in the real world ruggedness and reliability of genuine Rolex watches so for a few hundred bucks, I can get the same look without all the $$ headaches and hassles.

[Corgi]

My Asian 7750 tell better time than most of my ETAs.

I have never had any problems with them YET. Knock on wood.

[freddy333]

If you get a fresh, clean Eta movement, it will usually run without trouble for at least 5 years. Asian 'mystery movements' usually last from 2 minutes to a year or two.

I do not think I have ever seen a 'fresh, clean ETA' in a rep. From what I have seen or heard from others, they tend to be used and/or unserviced (even those from sellers who charge an additional fee to 'service' the watch for you are usually borderline). In the 20+ years I have been collecting watches -- gens & reps -- the only rep that had what appeared to be a 'fresh, clean' ETA was this 1, which I got in the mid-80s

(You can read about it in this thread)

...and the Sea-Gull ST19 chronograph movement that seems to be one of the best cheapo Asian movements made.

I could not agree more here. The Seagull/Lemania copy is, in my opinion, THE highest quality movement ever put into a commercially made rep watch & 1 of the best-made movements in general. I have owned 2 Daytona reps with this movement (the 1st for almost 10 years) & they wind, run & keep time flawlessly

Although it is obviously inaccurate by today's standards, I have kept 1 in my permanent collection solely because of the quality of the movement.

As for genuine watches...

I have a 16013 DJ that I wore for a while but parked it after I made up a replica Swiss Eta 2836 DJ with 18K bezel, oem type sapphire crystal/gasket, genuine crown etc because I simply do not trust a genuine Rolex to run without breaking. (I am speaking from experience, not blowing smoke)

Back when I wore a Rolex all the time, it took three...

1...one to wear

2...one spare for when the one I was wearng blew up

3...one waiting on parts

Kinda like a Harley D motorcycle.

I used to own an AMF Sportster, so I know about quality issues. But I am definitely scratching my head over your (negative) comments about the DJ. My 1st gen Rolex was a 16013 (I still own a 16014) & it ran, flawlessly, for many years until I lost it. And that was without any servicing, which was a mistake on my part. I also had a relative who was a professional Rolex-trained watchmaker & I remember him telling me that Rolex watches were the 'best made' watch in the world. And although I am an amateur, at best, that has been my experience as well.

The 16013 has already had a new mainspring, balance staff, cleaning job, crown, case tube, crystal, and gaskets since I had it (four months, and it had a 2004 service date written inside the caseback)...what's next? Besides all this, the hairspring is laser welded to the collet on the 3035 and they are famous for coming loose...the fix is a new $400 balance assembly. I have little faith in the real world ruggedness and reliability of genuine Rolex watches so for a few hundred bucks, I can get the same look without all the $$ headaches and hassles.

The 3035 is probably 1 of the weakest links in Rolex's movement chain, but I have never had any problems with either of mine. Alot of reliability issues are down to the individual tech who services (or last serviced) your watch. The watchmaker in my family used to service watches that had just been returned from Rolex NYC & I remember a couple of times hearing him cursing under his breath as he remedied something the Rolex tech had done wrong or failed to fix the 1st time. I do not think this was a frequent problem, but it happened enough times that it made an impression on me when I was a teen.

[wombat247]

I feel the same way you do, but I typically buy reps for two reasons- 1. because I'm interested in the gen and want to see how much wrist time it'll actually get and 2. because I really want the gen but know it won't get enough wrist time to warrant the expense. In both cases, I don't care too much about reliability since the watch won't be "alive" enough to worry about it. However, in some rare cases, I have fallen in love with the rep and know that I won't get the gen. In those cases, I worry all the time about "random" failures and for that reason, wear the watch very little- probably because I know it'll be working when I need it... probably.

[Sir-Lancelot]

@wombat "In both cases, I don't care too much about reliability since the watch won't be "alive" enough to worry about it."

Please send your junk my way. I will pay all postage. Thanks.

[the osteopath]

Please note that while I mentioned the reliability of the A7750 movement as an issue, I was speaking more of the actual value of the reps vs used/lower priced gens. I'm not speaking about anything specific- more a feeling I suppose.

-O

[freddy333]

Please note that while I mentioned the reliability of the A7750 movement as an issue, I was speaking more of the actual value of the reps vs used/lower priced gens. I'm not speaking about anything specific- more a feeling I suppose.

I think that is a good point & 1 that I have in mind when considering the purchase of a new rep. In general, I will not spend more than about 1/10th the cost of a gen on a rep. And, with the exception of a handful of franken/grail watches, my max limit for any commercially made rep is $400. But I know how passionate we all are about our watches, so I can understand those who operate with a more 'relaxed' buying guide.

[longshot]

i find myself feeling the same way more and more these days. i started with gens and while reps are fun, they are just reps.

i sold a few watches in the last few weeks and started rep shopping to replace them and just could not find anything... great.

so i bought a seiko 6R15 'sumo' diver

for $400 or so i get a totally in house watch that is truly 200m water resistant with amazing lume and beautiful fit and finish inside and out that will run for 10 years or more without touching it. with no 'mods' needed

and now i have one of basically every significant seiko diver!

[DemonSlayer]

Longshot if you're ever thinking of selling any of your seiko divers, do let me know

[Jimmythree]

Quote = "But I am definitely scratching my head over your (negative) comments about the DJ. My 1st gen Rolex was a 16013 (I still own a 16014) & it ran, flawlessly, for many years until I lost it. And that was without any servicing, which was a mistake on my part. I also had a relative who was a professional Rolex-trained watchmaker & I remember him telling me that Rolex watches were the 'best made' watch in the world. And although I am an amateur, at best, that has been my experience as well.

The 3035 is probably 1 of the weakest links in Rolex's movement chain, but I have never had any problems with either of mine." /quote

I went back and looked at my records...I have owned 26 watches with the 3035 and had trouble with 6 of them (in about 25 years, but I did not wear all of them)...everything from broken rotor axles and jewels to date problems. A couple had problems when I got them but most went DOA while I wore them.

(6 out of 26...I always heard the number 6 was bad luck)

I sold the last 7 tutone 3035 powered watches to one guy 6-7-01 (7 = good luck!) promising myself I would never own another 3035 but in a weak moment bought another one early this year just because it was cheap...and the guy owed me some $$.

note: I admit to being hard on watches, I did not take it easy on one just because it was a rolex...but I have slowed down a bit since then. A friend lost an explorer II in a lake a few years ago and another lost a submariner while deep sea fishing and we still wonder where they are and what condition they are in. We figured the springbars let go.

I knocked a sappire crystal, bezel, gasket and all off a modern DJ once but in the watch's defense, the crystal gasket was fried from the sun. Also knocked a crown clean off a watch including the stem and breaking the case tube. (no crown guards) Had a DJ come in a few months ago with the same problem and the guy did not know how or when it happened. He works on antique cars.

Oh yeah, the crystal, bezel, and gasket fiasco...a few years ago I was riding on the back of a motorcycle when a cop got after us and we rode through a doorway at a motorcycle shop trying to hide. I had a bucket of fried chicken tucked under my left arm and when we bounced off the door frame, I stuck my hand out and smacked the watch pretty hard (and dropped the chicken).

The cop was asleep in a car wash next to the chicken joint and we did a looong wheelie past the car wash and woke him up. (beat up old Kawasaki ZX11 with headers etc) He said he took off after us because we "made him look bad". I guess sleeping on duty was OK.

The cop was laughing so hard there were tears in his eyes when he walked in the door.

We were not laughing. We lost $10 worth of fried chicken.

I found the crystal, bezel, and gasket still in one piece on the floor.

I have owned as many or more watches with 1530 base movements (starting in the early 1970s) and had very little trouble other than the usual caused by neglect, wear, or botched repair jobs. Many 1530/60/70/75 etc movements are getting very ratty now because of rough handling during service, being left in the cleaning fluid too long (plating ruined) etc, etc.

Some are just getting old...the 1530 came out in 1957.

I have owned about 20 watches with the 3135 and only had trouble with one (besides the crystal), but I never wore a 3135 powered watch for longer than a few weeks before getting rid of it. I have a 3135 in a 16233 but have never worn the watch....if I ever do, the first thing I will do is change the crystal gasket.

[freddy333]

Jimmy3 - I think that pretty much says it all.