Lubing without Disassembly

[simonsays]

having been a memeber of several boards for several months ive picked up alot of great stuff.

i keep seeing some mystical,mythical, half legend, half lore mention of some of the members ability to do a basic lube on our beloved movements WITHOUT DISASSEMBLY.possibly using hypodermic needles.

given that most movements come out of the factories with little or no oil, surely if such a thing existed then we should all be aware of this magic.

i spent a good two hours last night searching the boards for a "how to" on this .....nada!

so come on you watch wizards, why are we being kept in the dark. if this technique is possible, why havent you got your cameras out and produced a tutorial?

is it that, like old nessie, it doesnt really exist? or is it some secret art ,closely guarded by a fanatic band of wizend, hunchbacked horologists ?

si

[Rolexman]

Read THIS. Yes, it can be done. No, it's not the right way to service a movement.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Rolexman

[rolex001]

It is possible to oil a movement in assembled state. You can't clean it though in that state. Fora good clean it has to be disassembled. The pallet fork and everything bearing related is located on the movement that way, it can be lubed. Still, a barrel can not be lubed - it has to be disassembled and cleaned - then regreased with special grease allowing the mainspring to slip.

So, your answer would be - yes, but only partially. And it's no good practice - best to always disassemble, clean, polsih pivots etc and then reoil.

[Logan]

Yes its possible, but the very idea offends the purists amongst us (ie The Zigmeister), and its not exactly considered best watchmaking practise, then again our movements arn't exactly horological art either.

There's two basic ways, both requite stripping the outer movement parts, ie date wheel and auto winder, then you clean everything using an ultrasonic cleaner, not a traditional watchmakers "swirl" cleaner. This part of the process works really well as the ultrasonic waves penetrate inside the movement quite happily.

The second stage has two options, you can rinse all the parts using a rinse that has a lubricant in it, this leaves a coating of lube all over the inside of the movement.. not exactly subtle, and not especially effective as one lube does not suit all parts.

The other option is to oil the partially assembled movement as best you can with an proper oiler (which is basically a needle that picks up oil on the end), the problem here is you need to know the movement quite well or its easy to miss hidden parts. This option is fairly effective so long as you don't have an inaccessible jewell or part.

One other small benefit of both when working on reps is that you don't have to strip and re-assemble a dodgy chinese movement that you don't have a manual or any spare parts for, and often the lower grade movements don't go back together well. Some are even riveted together to save screws, those screws that there are are often so low quality that they strip with the slightest turn.

So in summary, if you have a low grade movement I suppose some lubricant is better than none, especially if cost of the service is an issue. If you have a higher grade movement (eg ETA) or a more complicated one (ie 7750) then you better to take the time and do a proper strip down followed by hand oiling as per the manufacturers specs.

having been a memeber of several boards for several months ive picked up alot of great stuff.

i keep seeing some mystical,mythical, half legend, half lore mention of some of the members ability to do a basic lube on our beloved movements WITHOUT DISASSEMBLY.possibly using hypodermic needles.

given that most movements come out of the factories with little or no oil, surely if such a thing existed then we should all be aware of this magic.

i spent a good two hours last night searching the boards for a "how to" on this .....nada!

so come on you watch wizards, why are we being kept in the dark. if this technique is possible, why havent you got your cameras out and produced a tutorial?

is it that, like old nessie, it doesnt really exist? or is it some secret art ,closely guarded by a fanatic band of wizend, hunchbacked horologists ?

si

[crystalcranium]

Can you properly oil a jeweled pivot without disassembly? I didn't think you could.

Cheap 21Js are better replaced than serviced. I'm not a watch repair person, but from what I've read from Rob, a dip and swirl is akin to lubing the chasis and changing the motor, transmission and differential oils by spraying the ouyside of the car with WD40.

The proof is in the performance. I wonder if anyone has had a poorly performing movement returned to reliable running by this method.

[rolex001]

Um, a jewel pivot is in most cases oiled i nassembled state. The oil is held by capillary action, therefore a specified drop of a specified oil grade is applied to the spot where shaft and bearing jewel mate.

[simonsays]

yes i read about the swish and dip... not interested in that!

"the other option is to oil the partially assembled movement as best you can with an proper oiler (which is basically a needle that picks up oil on the end), the problem here is you need to know the movement quite well or its easy to miss hidden parts. This option is fairly effective so long as you don't have an inaccessible jewell or part."

this is what i meant. i think that if you can do this ,even to a cheap a21, when you very first get your new rep, it will help its longivity? would be something that someone who only has the intermediate skill to take the movement/ dial off could do

we need pictures of various popular movements, partially disassembled with arrows where to oil and what grade oil to use!!

its got to be an award winning pinned post if someone could do it! come on .... the watch world needs a hero to come forward......

si

[Watchmeister]

Even if it is doable the not so intuitive part is that the last type of movement you would simply douse is a rep movement. Why? They are siginificantly more expensive and there is inherently more risk of fundamental build issues. The new Asian 7750's are very well designed and can last a lifetime - but only if they are clean, oiled and properly assembled. At $400-$1000 for a rep you have to think about it seriously.

[crystalcranium]

You can Google and download ETA oil charts on the web.

[Watchmeister]

And I suspect it is not one oil used throughout the entire movement.

[sssurfer]

Lubing without disassembling is like lubing without **********.

[freddy333]

i keep seeing some mystical,mythical, half legend, half lore mention of some of the members ability to do a basic lube on our beloved movements WITHOUT DISASSEMBLY.possibly using hypodermic needles.

given that most movements come out of the factories with little or no oil, surely if such a thing existed then we should all be aware of this magic.

SS -- Let me ask you a question -- If your car engine required an overhaul, how long do you think the engine would last if, instead of being properly disassembled & having each part individually cleaned, lubed & reassembled, you just dipped the entire engine into a vat of Varsol (solvent used to remove grease) & then poured a can of 40 wt oil all over it & used a hypodermic needle to inject as much oil as you can squirt into all of the openings & crevices you can find on the outside of the engine?

[simonsays]

freddy

as i said im not interseted in the swish and dip

im thinking of the judicious oiling of a brand new movement, with the correct grade of watch oil, on a partially disassembled movement. even if you could only access 50% of the necessary lube points its got to be better than a completely dry movement?

of course i realise that to service and lube a movement properly requires complete disassembly. to use your analogy... you've realised the car you just bought has too little engine oil in it. youre not quite sure how to top it up, but you realise doing nothing will shorten the life of your engine. its not quite worth the expense of having the garage take the whole engine apart and clean, reassemble and oil it.

si

[RWG Technical]

You can answer your question by asking a question.

What is the purpose of oil in a movement, and is the same oil used everywhere.

The purpose of the oil is to prevent wear of the rotating parts, how does it do this?

By having oil sitting between the rotating steel pivot and the sapphire jewel.

The correct oil has to be applied in a measured quantity and in the correct location and it stays where it's applied by capillary action.

How does capillary action work and how do you know how much oil to use?

You can only oil a pivot if it's completely dry, and has no oil. The amount of oil you apply is measured depending on the pivot size, and the type of oil depends on the stress at that particular pivot point. Capillary action only works on a completely dry jewel and pivot, any contamination and it won't work.

So that answers your question, the long way.

You need to apply a perfectly measured amount of oil to correctly oil each pivot. This can only be done if the jewel and pivot are dry and contain no oil or contaminants. You can only do this if they are clean, they can only be cleaned by disassembling the movement and washing and drying it. The oil will only stay where you place it by capillary action, which only works in a clean and dry pivot jewel assembly. So the answer is simple, if your goal is to have a correctly oiled movement...

Anyone who tells you otherwise, is not informed about how watches work or how they are oiled.

RG

[chrgod]

The Zigmeister nailed it, as usual!

When I was about 14-15 years old, I enjoyed buying old mechanical clocks on flea markets.. If it was not working, I removed the movement and drained it in white spirit.. Then sprayed the whole thing with CRC 5-56 and put it back together.. Strangely, it worked!

That was my introduction to mechanical watches!

[Triodus]

This is a subject that stirred up some heated debate last year. As The Zigmeister put it then and now, there is only one way to do it right.

"SOF"

[simonsays]

cheers everyone

i understand

next step, learn how to disassemble/rebuild a watch..........

si