Supplements

[capice]

Rich Garpari....wow is he alive, one great bodybuilder, protege from Ben Weider....long time no see....

most powerusers are on protein and dianabol,decadurabolin or other kinds of stuff unfortunately this is the only thing that works...

[The Mentalist]

Doesn't help you achieve it quicker, it helps prolong it. MRI makes the best NO2 on the market called NO2 Black. It is a blood dilator that promotes the exchange of oxygen to blood which essentially gives you your "pump". More blood in the muscles the bigger the pump. It takes about a week and a half to enter the system so whatever immediate effects you feel is purely mental. I use this stuff and it is great!!

I agree with most that the majority f the sups out there are crap, but just like the REP world, for every 5 bad ones there is a gem out there.

If you do the NO2 sup drink tons of water (as you should with all sups) and stack with CE2....

It sounds like you've swallowed the marketing. 'Blood dilator' and 'exchange of oxygen to blood'...these terms mean very little. NOS works, allegedly, because of the breakdown of Arginine (alpha ketoglutarate) and other amino acids into Nitric Oxide which causes blood vessels to dilate. This the same mechanism that Viagra and other ED drugs work. The effect is immediate. It is the creatine in the formulation that can take a week to kick in so any strength gains are placebo but the increased pump isn't.

The only difference between various brands is the quality of the ingredients and the amounts they use. I favour Amped because I've tried others and found they didn't agree with me in some way. Most work, some didn't but you pay your money, you take your chance.

Mike Mentzer advocated not taking any extra protein and his reasoning makes sense but is flawed. Personally I take 1g per lb of bodyweight per day spread over 5/6 meals. If you're eating about 30-40g of protein per meal, you have nothing to worry about.

Protein assimilation is a strange one. It depends on genetics and also your body's needs. If you are training, protein is absorbed quciker and in greater quantities. Steroids help assimilation but generally if you're taking up to 50-60g per meal and you're training hard, you should be fine - it's not going to harm you. Better to overestimate than under.

[doc savage]

I'm sick of hearing how "steroids are the only thing that works", it sounds like a major cop out. Anabolic steroids have an obvious effect on muscle growth, but how does that somehow negate the (scientifically proven) benefit of legal, low- or no-side-effect dietary supplements? Yes, they may not give you as much bang-for-the-buck as a shot of AAS in the ass, but throw in surgery for gynecomastia or heart disease and that goes out the window.

Steroids have become a convenient excuse for laziness too: "That ripped guy doing deadlifts with 35s MUST be on the gear, because here I am benching 45s (3 reps) and he's bigger than me. Guess I'll go home and watch TV, since I don't do drugs."

Hard work "works" too, and it always has. Supplements to me are just part of eating right, nothing more.

Speaking of cost, all this crap:

was under $200, and if you subtract the cost of all the meals I didn't eat I'm sure I came out ahead.

I think my protein per meal is closer to 20-30g average, thanks to these low calorie shakes and bars. It's just so much easier to chug a good-tasting ready-to-drink shake than stirring up whey powder and choking it down. For now I'm going to at least try increasing my post-workout meal to 50g or so--I'm always STARVING after cardio or strength training so I think my body is trying to tell me something.

As for the NOS, it has no or very little effect until you start exercising; but then my pump comes much sooner and lasts a lot longer. The actual ingredients of Nitron are: Ornithine, Arginine, black pepper, Niacin, Evodia, and Gynostemma.

[The Mentalist]

I'm sick of hearing how "steroids are the only thing that works", it sounds like a major cop out. Anabolic steroids have an obvious effect on muscle growth, but how does that somehow negate the (scientifically proven) benefit of legal, low- or no-side-effect dietary supplements? Yes, they may not give you as much bang-for-the-buck as a shot of AAS in the ass, but throw in surgery for gynecomastia or heart disease and that goes out the window.

Steroids have become a convenient excuse for laziness too: "That ripped guy doing deadlifts with 35s MUST be on the gear, because here I am benching 45s (3 reps) and he's bigger than me. Guess I'll go home and watch TV, since I don't do drugs."

Hard work "works" too, and it always has. Supplements to me are just part of eating right, nothing more.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Most supplements are very hokey but some do work - study after study has shown creatine works as does HMB. But they don't work as well as steroids. Nothing works as well as steroids but that said, even steroids need hard work, good nutirition and supreme genetics to give the kind of effects you see on your average IFBB or NPC competitor. There are a couple of jokers in the gym who are both on a ridiculous six compound stack - enough juice to kill a horse, but they still look like they barely lift, even after 12 weeks. They train twice a week using piddly little weights and expect to look like Ronnie Coleman.

Where the problem lies is in the marketing of these supplements. They state or imply 'steroid-like' effects and use endorsements from guys who built their physiques using drugs and people buy into that dream. The only thing that can give 'steroid-like' effects are steroids themselves (and hard work, nutrition and genetics) and given the expectation level, anything less is a massive disappointment and subsequent disillusionment.

As with anything, it is a choice. I'm currently clean but if I choose to juice again, I would have no issue with it as I have done my research and have quantified the risk and decided it is one I can live with. Great results are possible without juice. I'm proof that you can train natural and make superb progress. I think it's great you are going down that route too.

[doc savage]

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. Most supplements are very hokey but some do work - study after study has shown creatine works as does HMB. But they don't work as well as steroids. Nothing works as well as steroids but that said, even steroids need hard work, good nutrition and supreme genetics to give the kind of effects you see on your average IFBB or NPC competitor. There are a couple of jokers in the gym who are both on a ridiculous six compound stack - enough juice to kill a horse, but they still look like they barely lift, even after 12 weeks. They train twice a week using piddly little weights and expect to look like Ronnie Coleman.

Where the problem lies is in the marketing of these supplements. They state or imply 'steroid-like' effects and use endorsements from guys who built their physiques using drugs and people buy into that dream. The only thing that can give 'steroid-like' effects are steroids themselves (and hard work, nutrition and genetics) and given the expectation level, anything less is a massive disappointment and subsequent disillusionment.

As with anything, it is a choice. I'm currently clean but if I choose to juice again, I would have no issue with it as I have done my research and have quantified the risk and decided it is one I can live with. Great results are possible without juice. I'm proof that you can train natural and make superb progress. I think it's great you are going down that route too.

I was referring to the type of guy who will only lift plates, instead of taking some of the weight off and lifting it properly. Usually the same type of guy who will do some presses, some curls, and go home.

I heard an interesting story of how "before and after" pictures are made; the snake-oil company tracks down an amateur weightlifter or athlete who's suffered some kind of temporary injury and pay them to fatten up and stop working out for a while, then they take the "before" photo. Then once the guy recovers and goes back to working out and his normal diet, they snap the "after" photo. Of course this is the kind of thing that the poor saps who get their science from a magazine would eat right up.

I personally like to see an actual research study, and not some half-assed data that doesn't prove anything (ZMA).

I don't have the slightest problem with intelligent steroid use. If you are willing to take the risk, not competing in a sport where it is banned, and not breaking the law. I personally cannot benefit from them mainly due to family history with heart disease, so it could be a bit of sour grapes in my case.

Would you say steroids could make up for a genetic disadvantage? Some people have naturally higher testosterone levels, would they benefit less from them?

[Squill]

Would you say steroids could make up for a genetic disadvantage? Some people have naturally higher testosterone levels, would they benefit less from them?

No, for example if you have weak calves genetically, AAS will help them grow quicker than they would have, but will still grow less than other parts.

And only idots get gyno, shove some provion into a cycle, and your covered, just keep nolv/adex on hand just in case...

And unless your wanting to get "huge" you will be ok without them, I got to 15.5 stone @ 15/16% BF before I used them....that was from 10.5 stone in 2.5 years...

So you can still get big as a natty, just not as quickly

Edited July 5, 2008 by Squill

[slai]

Does anyone else have "Wearing a big pilot" as a workout goal?

[dvn]

Here is the site that you can buy good supplements and lots of them are isotonix so it will absorb much faster. OPC3 is one of the popular and recommended as i am using it daily:

http://www.marketamerica.com/good4all/

Have a healthy and strong life everyone.

[The Mentalist]

I was referring to the type of guy who will only lift plates, instead of taking some of the weight off and lifting it properly. Usually the same type of guy who will do some presses, some curls, and go home.

I heard an interesting story of how "before and after" pictures are made; the snake-oil company tracks down an amateur weightlifter or athlete who's suffered some kind of temporary injury and pay them to fatten up and stop working out for a while, then they take the "before" photo. Then once the guy recovers and goes back to working out and his normal diet, they snap the "after" photo. Of course this is the kind of thing that the poor saps who get their science from a magazine would eat right up.

I personally like to see an actual research study, and not some half-assed data that doesn't prove anything (ZMA).

I don't have the slightest problem with intelligent steroid use. If you are willing to take the risk, not competing in a sport where it is banned, and not breaking the law. I personally cannot benefit from them mainly due to family history with heart disease, so it could be a bit of sour grapes in my case.

Would you say steroids could make up for a genetic disadvantage? Some people have naturally higher testosterone levels, would they benefit less from them?

Remember the Cybergenics ads of the early nineties? When Franco Santoriello went from an average Joe to IFBB pro in apparently 12 weeks? Those ads were incredible and made Cybergenics the biggest supplement company in the world at the time. But it came out that Franco was using a little something else in his stack and it all started going south for the company.

Steroids cannot make up for genetics deficiencies. Even freaks like Flex Wheeler who literally had a mutation that allowed him to pile on muscle with little effort couldn't overcome terrible calves - he ended up having implants.

[doc savage]

Just a few thoughts on my progress; I'm now in week 4 of routine strength training, cardio, healthy eating (frequent small portions of lean poultry, fish, healthy fats, whole grains, fruits and vegetables, and of course protein shakes), and mainstream supplements.

I think the biggest achievement so far is breaking thirty years of bad habits and replacing them with healthy ones. So far I have definitely put on muscle and lost a little fat, but it really feels like I am just getting started. I got a full physical and health evaluation before I got started so I can track my progress, as well as taking some scary "before" photos.

I've learned to love the "pump", it seems like in the past 10 years of occasional lifting I was probably leaving the gym just as I was getting warmed up. Lately, the last muscle group I work on gets so swollen that I am tempted to start over again from the beginning; for now I just keep switching things around so different muscles get a chance to be last.

I am still using the EAS brand arginine in pill form. I asked about Amped at one of the (many) local vitamin joints, and the guy gave me a sample dose of the hous brand they push. Due to the popularity of NO-Xplode, everybody is trying to sell their own blend of L-Arginine with stimulants and other stuff in a pre-workout shake. So I did some research on it, and gave it a shot--working out while on a mega caffeine buzz is pretty crazy but kind of fun. Unfortunately it contained a little too much creatine when combined with the amount I was already taking, so I had to work out with an upset stomach. I think I will give NO-xplode and Amped a try; but it's not something I would use with every workout.

Here's this week's haul, and carrying all this crap to the car AFTER my lower body workout was not fun:

I'm going to want to start losing more fat, so I'll be using the 100% whey more and the Myoplex shakes and bars less. As for the taste (in water, of course all three are much improved by adding skim milk) , personal preference aside the chocolate is the most palatable, closely followed by strawberry and vanilla is surprisingly dead last. I did get some regular Myoplex RTDs; it tastes better and it's more filling than the carb control or "lite" varieties, plus they are a lot bigger so I usually just drink half with a bite or two of a bar. These are the "mocha latte" flavor, and they taste almost too good to be a protein shake. I know the bars aren't all that great for dieting but they can be a lifesaver when the munchies hit, or when traveling.

I'm adding CLA to my diet. It's sort of a long term thing and I'll probably never know if it helped or not, but at least it can't hurt.

I really appreciate the tips and advice, I know some of you guys have put some real work into your bodies and I respect that immensely. My goals are probably a lot more modest; I mainly want to live past 60 and get my body fat percentage down to a respectable number.

[Squill]

Is your goal to loose fat or gain muscle?

[Cucumber_Jones]

I think you should post some before photos. I would also like to know if it is fat loss or weight gain. I suspect it is both. I have lost 25lbs over the last 3 mos and I have gained a ton of muscle. For me is it less cals - no sugar, no starch, little carbs and no dairy. Friut vegeis and protien. I work out three days on and on off. I also cycle as much as I can. I am trying to work Hiit training in too to get cut. Personaly I think you could spend more on reps and less on supps. There are some good ones but I think loosing weight first by cutting cals is very important. They work your way up with muscle gain.

Before photos!

I go to audi world and there is a dude named carbon lord (makes bike parts too) and he did a full 6 mos photo progress it was very interesting.

[doc savage]

I think you should post some before photos. I would also like to know if it is fat loss or weight gain. I suspect it is both. I have lost 25lbs over the last 3 mos and I have gained a ton of muscle. For me is it less cals - no sugar, no starch, little carbs and no dairy. Fruit veggies and protein. I work out three days on and on off. I also cycle as much as I can. I am trying to work Hiit training in too to get cut. Personaly I think you could spend more on reps and less on supps. There are some good ones but I think loosing weight first by cutting cals is very important. They work your way up with muscle gain.

Before photos!

First off, congratulations on your results. You're right, I do want to gain muscle as well as lose fat--which I think is a lot more challenging than doing either separately.

I could post my "before" photo but I'm not too proud of it--I'll post it when I have a decent looking "after" pic; hopefully in the next few weeks. Here's a start, after 3 weeks:

I'm about 6'1", and weigh around 260 down from 265 in the first photo.

EAS and my company were both purchased by the same corporation, so I get their products for very little cost. Dieting is a challenge for me and I'll be content with losing the fat slowly and steadily, as long as I continue to gain muscle.

[slai]

Ok, I just got my AP ROO. Screw supplements...I'm buying a whole cow every month.

[Ztech]

Want an informative thread.

Ok, I'd like to chime in and get some tips. To be frank I'm probably easily catagorized as fit. Of course, it all depends on opinions, but I think I'd be safely considered "in shape" by most everyone. I'm modest, but I didn't know how to get that out of the way.

I'm 6'2" and am currently around 205lbs. I work out about 3 to 4 times a week. Having spent 10 years in the military has made physical fitness an integral part of my life. One thing I'd say my problem area is my diet, sleeping habits (don't get enough) and my drinking and smoking habits (I love a good single malt whiskey and smoke socially about once a week). So I've been toying with supplements, but since I've never ever taken any I just don't know where to begin. I've been hearing more and more from friends that I should at least get creatine and whey protein into the mix. So I thought I'd ask you guys for some tips.

I've dropped some muscle mass as I've gone from about 220 to 205 in the past few years. I'm 37 and in pretty good health and feel that I'm still pretty strong. I'm no power lifter but I do dumbell presses regualrly and my last set is with 120 lbs bumbell and do a full 10 rep set. In terms of the flat bench I do go up to a max of 2 reps at 345lbs. Hopefully that gives you an idea of where I am in terms of strength training.

So a few of my buddies have suggested these products:

http://www.vitaminworld.com/pages/file.asp...stylebordernone

http://www.vitaminworld.com/pages/file.asp...stylebordernone

http://www.vitaminworld.com/pages/file.asp...stylebordernone

So my questions are these.

My goals aren't to get any bigger and loose any fat. I think I'm about as big as I'd like to get generally (I don't have goals of ever competiting or anything like that) and I'm pretty fit/lean so these are my goals. I've recently begun to feel my age a bit and my recovery is getting more difficult and longer. I'd like to aid in recovery and hopefully get anything that might aid in helping to sustain where I am currently.

Next is to supplement my diet as I've heard that protein should have a positive impact on overall fitness.

Then the next area would be some additional energy during my workouts.

So would you guys give me some tips on whether the 3 products I've listed are any good and what combination or process/schedule I should use them in? Cycles? On 3 months off 3? I'm completely lost and all this stuff is very new to me.

Thanks in advance guys.

z

[chronoluvvv]

i'm a firm believer in the nicotine/ethanol/caffeine & peanut butter diet

[therebel]

I think supplements for the most part are a waste. I was a competitive power lifter prior to a rough motorcycle wreck and it makes me sick knowing that kids are wasting their hard earned cash on the crap from ads in muscle mags.

The secrets to getting in shape and not breaking your wallet:

Sleep

Water

Crea Mono - 5g a day, loading is a bunch of shi* and not necessary (remember more expensive is not better, you're just paying for marketing)

Whey - The only must have supplement (same as above, you don't need the most expensive on the market)

Multi-Vitamin

Meal replacements? Yeah, it's called canned tuna and .50 a pop at the grocery store.

If your dedicated to busting your ass at the gym then be dedicated enough to spend 15 minutes every night to cook chicken/veggies/fish and put it in zip lock containers to eat 5-6 meals a day.

I think all energy drinks are a waste of money too. You can buy off brand pure caffeine pills for 5 bucks a bottle if you really need an extra edge.

I don't like the topic of roids even being discussed. 99% of the population won't understand how to use them and use them to their potential. Too many young kids get hooked with the idea of fast gains. They read about how to cycle and what to take in recovery to negate any side effects but miss the most important part....

Where people screw up when taking them is the diet part. You need to be eating more than you thought humanly possible (clean, not cheeseburgers) while cycling, then eat almost as much post cycle to limit the loss of mass you gained while on the cycle.

I guess what I'm trying to say is diet is the number 1 part of getting big. Most people can have what some consider 'steroid' like results with whey protein and a perfectly fine tuned diet. It takes time and hard work, but I would spend as much time in the gym as I would tweaking my diet to see exactly how many calories and protein my body needs to maximize results.

I hope this helps a little bit. The one thing I'm trying to get across is that you should not spend more than $30 a month on supplements. Most are crap and a lot of money can be saved by a quick trip to the grocery store. Muscle mass is made in the kitchen and at the gym...not at GNC.

[doc savage]

I'm wondering about creatine cycling too, I've read that it isn't necessary. I use EAS Phosphagen Elite post workout for it's beta alinine content and carbs and regular phosphagen in the morning and at night. The best preworkout that I've tried is NO Shotgun--I would hate to lift weights without it.

As for whey, I mostly use it post workout or when I can't get a balanced meal. I would much rather have some salmon or chicken, and if I wasn't cutting, some steak. Right now I am having pancakes I made with nothing but oats, cottage cheese, and egg whites with a little sugar-free syrup. At night I usually have some Greek yogurt for a longer-lasting protein.

I am still taking CLA (fat loss) and HMB (muscle retention during dieting).

In the past seven weeks I have lost 5 inches from my gut and made significant muscle gains--my weight remains unchanged at 270. My new goal for the next 5 weeks is to maximize fat loss; I want to see what all this muscle looks like!

I'm still researching cutting methods but so far here's what I've got:

Reduce net carb intake and increase protein and healthy fats

Add an L-glutamine supplement

No carbs at all in the evening

Use a casein+whey protein during the day (I guess this is to avoid gaps in protein availability during a diet?)

Gradually reduce total calorie intake to...?

More cardio--I plan on increasing HIIT to 4 times a week and adding more sports and outdoor activities (swimming, hiking, soccer, running, biking)

[therebel]

My new goal for the next 5 weeks is to maximize fat loss; I want to see what all this muscle looks like!

Gradually reduce total calorie intake to...?

More cardio--I plan on increasing HIIT to 4 times a week and adding more sports and outdoor activities (swimming, hiking, soccer, running, biking)

You may want to look into some keto diets. I'm not a big fan of them but everybody is different. Don't do any extreme keto diets (atkins, etc) because from what I've seen you lose to much hard earned mass. There are 'less' strict keto diets that still allow enough carbs to retain some of your muscle. If you lose weight quickly your going to lose some muscle...no real way around it.

Again, the main points are to work on your diet. There's no easy way around it, you just have to adjust your calorie levels until you find the perfect amount to safely lose the weight.

Since your not going for any competitions...take it easy. Weight loss shouldn't be overnight. That's why I suggest staying away from fad no carb diets and just do it over time. Eat a well balanced clean diet. You have a much better chance at retaining your muscle this way.

Cardio cardio cardio. It sucks, but it's the only way to see those abs. To retain your muscles through a cutting phase I like to eat a pretty healthy diet without cutting a bunch of calories to make sure you feed your muscles...then bust your ass with some HIIT.

[Ztech]

Ok, maybe I should have been a bit more clear. I'm not looking into cheating myself or looking for quick gains. I think I'm fairly good where I am currently, but I'd like to see if I could help in recovery and add some protein in my diet. Although I value fitness I am by no means a work out junkie. I enjoy life. I work long hours due to my choice of careers and the industry I'm in. That much can't be changed. So I tend to take every opportunity to enjoy myself and live life to the fullest. Yes, I do spend some time at the gym to stay fit, but that's not the center of the universe for me. I'd probably value my weekends out with my friends than how I look to other people.

The thing is I DO value fitness and would like to see if some of these product could aid a little in maintaining what I work hard for. From the posts in this thread opinions seem to drift back and forth throughout the spectrum, which is confusing to say the least.

So... are the products I put up above a waste of money? Should I just spend it on a bottle of McCallan 12?

[BreitlingSA]

Supplements are the most overrated thing in bodybuilding/losing weight.

From my experience the most important thing is a good clean diet and CONSISTENCY. So many people do the weights and cardio then get home from the gym and have BBQ chicken wings, chips and a beer thinking the gym is where their goals are made.

The only supplement you need if losing fat/gaining muscle is Whey protein on top of a great diet and hard work.

Realistically expect to see a change in your body every two weeks of hard work and take photos of your progress to keep you motivated.